Time for a new thread! Here's the link to my latest significant update. Basically my wife told me she's moving out next weekend and taking our son with her.
It's so strange how my wife has been so nice to me today. I think she feels relief she's leaving the constrains of being under one roof, and also that she finally got to get that load off her chest without facing negativity from me.
She IS feeling depressed about the move, though. She called me today from the supermarket to see what lunch we'd like, and she asked if someone would please say burgers, because she was that was her depression food. I asked why, and she replied that shopping for things for the new house is making her depressed.
I wish I could say: "All you have to do is drop those shopping bags and come back to my arms, baby."
I wrote this from your last thread but couldnt post it coz it was locked.
Originally Posted By: alamo76
So...all that talk about of me having a few more months of being under one roof just drastically went south. My wife asked if we could sit down and talk. I said sure we can. So out came the words I never dreamt my wife, MY WIFE, would ever say: "I'm moving out by the end of next week." Nothing prepares you for it, really. But I remained calm and composed throughout the whole conversation.
You are doing good by not panicing.
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- My wife was obviously emotionally hurting while telling me her plans.
Stop worrying about what she is feeling.
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- She will be moving to an undisclosed location nearby.
BOUNDARY: Your kid is not going anywhere that you are not informed of. Either she goes alone and the kid stays with you, or you need to know where your kid is at, so she must tell you.
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- She said she needed to leave because of all that's been going, she feels like she can't breathe and can't deal with her anger and guilt while we're in the same house; she is more guarded and she explains she has been mean to me because she felt trapped and at the same time didn't want me to see her in pain.
At least she is saying what she feels and not turning it back on what you did. I'm not buying it though.
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- She still thinks that even though I seem nice and fine now, I might be all angry and mean later on, and try to get in the way of her plans. She said I have been known to be fickle during our marriage. - I validated her fears and how I was indeed fickle during our marriage.
"I can understand why you would see me as fickle during our marriage". Validating is not straight out agreeing with her. Don't get me wrong, you did good to validate here, just try not to confirm that you are fickle by nature.
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- My wife then said started talking about child custody. She said that was one of the reasons she went to the child psych. It was to get advice on what's developmentally important for our son. The psych said that during separations/divorce, 2-3+ boys have a strong desire for their mothers. So my wife mentioned that our son's living arrangement should be based at her new place. For now, we've agreed on me having him for two full days a week and picking him up from school everyday and having dinner with him. Plus she mentioned that since it's one of her busier year in terms of going for residency interviews and courses, I'll be having my son for many days at a time.
So NOW the real motive for her visit comes out.
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- My wife didn't want me to know where she's moving to. Not yet, she said. Then she started tearing up. She said she just needed to be away from this for awhile. I told her that I understood she needs the space, and reassured her I wasn't or will not be angry.
This is good, but please note what I said previously. As a parent, it is your right to know where you kid is going to be. She will accuse you of using the kid as leverage to learn her location and control her. Simply deny it outright, and tell her she is welcome to not take your kid, then she doesnt need to disclose the location. No parent should be forced to not know the location of their kid. Enforce this boundary and make it clear it is all about the kid, and not your need to know where SHE is at. Do not back down on this, she will test you.
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- I brought up custody when she goes into residency. It seemed like she was likely going out of state. She said yes. Are you going to place a court order on me, she asked? I didn't go into that, but got my point across that I want my son to still be part of my life. Not summer visits and all that. I asked about who's going to care for our son when she's in residency, with its 30-hour work shifts and all. I said ideally our son should be cared for by both his father and mother, not family members (I know she has her parents in mind). My wife said well, it will really depend on which hospital/state she gets accepted into, so it's too early to tell. We both agreed that we'll discuss this later on. Personally, even though she wants to go the uncontested route, I really worry about what I need to do to keep my son close.
Not gonna comment on the whole uncontested thing. I would just say that she is going to try to call all the shots and manipulate it in her favor. How you choose to deal with that is up to you.
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- Then she asked if we can figure out what furniture and things either of us wants to keep. When we talked about wedding pictures, she broke down. And I cried with her too. She said she never dreamt that she'd have those photos taken down and stored in a box. She cried more when she said she'll probably sell her wedding gown. We cried together again.
This is going to sound a little harsh, but please try to stop crying in front of and with her. Let her cry, but be a rock. Not that crying is bad, you need it. Just do it in private and get it all out in a healthy way in her absence.
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- My wife comments that I probably think she's evil and is a mean b****, and will go complaining to people about her, but that's understandable due to what's happening. I acknowledge her, and told her if I called her evil before, it was mean spirited and wrong of me.
Evil and mean b**** are no longer in your vocabulary with regards to her. I would let her know in some way that you have the opinion that what she is doing is selfish and in her best interests and not that of you or your child, but that it is your opinion, and you will not say a bad word to others about it, not even to your family or closest friends.
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- She said she was done dealing with me. The lying is what did her in. So many years, so many times. She brought up that I lied as recently as yesterday when she noticed my infamous face twitch that I do when I lie about something. I said yes I did, I lied to you. She said that who knows what else I'm doing. Then I made a mistake by challenging her by asking her of she'd read my face now if she'd ask me if I, say for example, didn't teach my son how to brush his teeth? Will it twitch? She said she couldn't read it at that time because we were in different rooms. I said, well, if I was lying, you could still ask me after the fact, and my face should still twitch if I was lying, right? I realized I was challening her and quickly backed off.
Your back is to the wall. You were afraid she was trying to take your child away. You acting irrationally over that. You are not going to lie or deceive anymore. Just tell her "no more lies, I realize the damage they do now".
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- She continued saying that my lying isn't just about porn, it's about almost everything else (how does she know that for a fact?). I owned up and said yes, I lied about many things and I regret doing that to you.
Whenever she brings up lying, just keep reinforcing your position that you are done lying, you can finally see how damaging it is.
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- And she said again that she thinks there's no way I'm off porn. When I answered her question a couple of nights ago if I was I said, "No, I'm not addicted any more." She said that's what addicts who are in denial and not inwardly aware of their addiction. She reminded me that I used to say that throughout our marriage after/during counselling, but I was not changed. So she said that's why she needs to be with a man that can be honest with her. She can't live like this anymore. I said I understand, I was very dishonest with you, way more than I needed to. I said what I said the other night was a general statement, and that I am aware of my triggers and it's not a losing struggle for me anymore. She didn't believe me.
You can't convince her via words. Tell her straight up "I don't care if you believe me or not, I am done with it. I have made this change for me, and as long as I know I am off it, that's all that matters". Key here is that you must truly be done with it.
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- She told me she wants someone who'll be honest, work hard and treat her well. Then she added: "That's also why I want to move out, I have so much guilt and anger towards you for how you treated that I need to deal with." I then told her that agree with you and if she ever needed someone to talk or vent about this or anything, I'm here. She said she didn't want to put that on me. We're not married anymore. I reassured her, and said you know my stance. Whatever you choose to do, I will be here for you. I may have to say no from time to time, but know that you have my ears and heart, because I care about you a lot. She started crying again, and I tried comforting her. She said through her teary eyes, "Part of me says stop crying and let everything go back to normal...but I can't be with you."
Do not tell her you will be there for her no matter what. If she goes, she loses you. She doesnt get to cake eat and have all the benefits of you, without the commitment. Since you have already said this, do not retract it, just do not say those things again. When she finally leaves she is going to need to miss you. Whenever she interacts with you, she will see the man she fell for, not the man you have recently been.
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- We started onto a slightly religious conversation, about divorce. But then she said she is at peace with God about she's doing. What she said next really broke my heart (I didn't let it show, though): "Which is why I will probably try around a little". I knew that she meant sleeping around. She said she needed to see who has good libido, because her husband didn't even want to have sex with her on their wedding night. The bible never said you shouldn't sleep around. A lot of the women and men in the bible were pretty promiscuous. Then she said, "I don't know why I told you that."
Okay man, this may be hard to hear, but I gotta tell you what my gut feels. I suspect she already has someone in mind that has shown interest in her. It may not be physical yet, but she may be pushing the D through as fast as possible to try. Please do not freak out, but keep in mind, she KEEPS BLAMING YOU for her wanting to leave, when in reality it may just be her acting on her wayward emotions.
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- A little into the conversation, she said, "Now, I don't know who'll want a saggy body like mine, saggy boobs, saggy belly sac. You, on the other hand, will get to have sex with a woman with a perfect body who's never had kids. I just hope to find someone who accepts my saggy body. This is what I get for saving myself before marriage. Do YOU find my saggy boobs and tummy attractive?" I said, "Oh yes."
She is trying to make it sound like you are getting the better deal sexually out of her leaving. Trying to soften her guilt over leaving.
One thing I realized from reading your post today is that her hurt over your porn addiction is not as much about her thinking less of you for being a porn addect, or lying about quitting (all the things she blames for), as much as it is that she has felt sexually rejected, neglected, and replaced with porn by you. You have not been taking good care of her sexually and the porn is just salt in the wound. All the blame and anger directed at you over the porn is burning resentment for how you have neglected her in this way and selected pornography instead.
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- She then said it's interesting how men who realize that they can't have their wives anymore suddenly find them attractive. I said I'm aware of that statement, but from where I am, it's a huge sign I'm in control of porn and understand it. I explained to her one of my big epiphanies is that when I have a trigger or temptation, instead of seeking out porn, my heart, body, mind and (ahem) horniness becomes focused on her and her body. I looked her in the eye and said that has been one of the greatest thing I've achievement in a long time. I was and am so happy to have trigger that don't draw me back to porn. My wife just listened and DIDN'T make snide comments or say that she didn't believe me unlike earlier in our conversation.
You MANNED UP. You basically told her you want to do her instead of look at porn.
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Then we spent the next hour talking about her family, their disfunctions, quirks and how her parents have mellowed out. She broke contact with her family early in our marriage and had recently got back together when we got separated. Basically we talked and laughed like we did in the past, though this time I practiced being a really good listener, making frequent eye contact, and giving her my full attention. I tried to be an active participant too, something I didn't used to do well. By now, my wife was definitely at ease talking, in contrast to the beginning of our conversation.
Excellent. More of these positive interactions, less talk about the two of you.
Spellfire aka Mike
"Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled." -S&A
I was thinking about you today. Wondering how you were holding up after the big talk you and W had. I like the advice Spellfire gave you. Glad you are getting good advice here. i will keep checking in on you.
Me:35, 2 kids from PR H: 37, 2 kids with me T: 15 years M: 8 years in Feb. Second walk out: 14-01-2011 H had PA: 2007
I agree with you 100%. And in places I don't agree with you 100%, I agree 110%!
I made some pretty unnecessary conversational and interactive blunders, and when you highlighted them, I couldn't believe how I could've missed them or have been so naive.
Tonight I'll be letting my wife know that I will be drafting a document stating our care schedule for our son, the reason she's moving out and not disclosing her location (if she still refuses to let me know), etc. I hope that she signs it. I will be revising that document as major changes during our separation occur. SO EVERYBODY, PLEASE PRAY ABOUT THAT!
Mike, your comment about my wife being sexually hurt by my addiction is right on. I can't remember which forum I wrote about this, but my wife was traumatized over and over again due to my addiction and lies (they go hand in hand). It is the nature and consequence of pretty much all spouses of addicts to be filled with so much hate and resentment. Sometimes I wonder if all my DBing can ever counteract this kind of damage. Until my wife is able to figure out her anger and resentment, I think the chance of reaching her may be difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. And who knows, by the time she figures it out, she may already have another man in her life to support her. Blasted coat tail riders!
I was thinking about you today. Wondering how you were holding up after the big talk you and W had. I like the advice Spellfire gave you. Glad you are getting good advice here. i will keep checking in on you.
I'm trying my darnest to hide my hurt and sadness, as my wife slowly but surely packs up her things. If this already feels like darkness, I can't imagine what divorce is like. I'm tired of mourning and crying, but yet here I am typing this with tears welling up in my eyes. God has a plan for me, I just wish my family is part of it.
Okay, I need advice here. I think I'm at a dead end here. Here's what went down tonight. My wife approached me to discuss something about her move (I'll write about this in a subsequent post, because I need to vent about it too). Anyway I asked my wife if we could talk about a couple more things:
M: "If I were to draft the care/visitation schedule for our son (that we talked about), could you and I date and sign off on it? W: "Sure" M: "I will put in the document the schedule, the reasons for setting the schedule, the reasons you're moving out..."
My wife suddenly is at attention and looks insulted.
M: "I also want to talk about you not giving me the address of where you two are moving to."
Then I gave her my reasoning for wanting to know where my son will be going, I.e. I wouldn't let our son's daycare provider take him on fieldtrips/excursions unless she told us where exactly she'll be taking him. I trust our provider, but it's important for me to still know.
My wife became really irate by this time.
W: "You still want to know where I am?" I tried reassuring her that it's needing to know where my son is living, that's it. But she kept saying that I just can't stop wanting to control her. "After all that understanding talk we had the other night where you were okay with it, and now you turn around and say all these things!" I bet i proved to her that I am indeed fickle per our conversation on Friday night.
It got a bit dicy, and I didn't handle it as well as our previous big discussion. I was calm, but almost always out of breath because my wife was on rapid attack mode tonight. The custody and her residency were brought up. She also brought up why she wants to move out and not tell me where she is. She has no more privacy living with me. I said, "I understand because I feel the same too. I know we're both operating out of real and imagined situations." She repeated that she can't even have any privacy during a separation. I told her that she snoops too. She responded by saying that I steal her panties, how could I still do that I said that's true, and it was wrong of me to do that. (Throughout our marriage, my wife always found it funny that I would want to sniff her stuff. I always told her that her scent drives me crazy, so when she's not in the mood or pn her period, it was a reminder of sorts. Sorry to be so detailed, but I'm trying to be open and honest here). I actuality, I had taken them when I did her laundry, but decided to hold onto them for awhile.
She went on to say the way I was saying things are for our son's interest is really for my own interest. "I am his mom and I'm looking out for the best interest of my son," she said. I told her so was I. It went back and forth awhile. That's when she pulled the stops on the conversation:
W: "You want to make this ugly? If you bring this to court, I will tell the judge you have been physically abusing me. Throughout our marriage you've been physical with me, and I can make things bad for you." So my horrible behavior is coming back to haunt me. FYI, I had a really uncontrolled temper even up until a couple of years ago. In the beginning of our marriage, I threw her against the wall trying to protect my porn secret, and I did it again when she was pregnant. After that incident, I promised myself I wouldn't be so careless with my emotions. There were, however, a few other times when I gripped her hard enough to bruise her wrists or thighs. By then, she had also started to slap or punch me when she got really mad. In essence, I created a monster in my wife. The guilt some of you see that is rampant in my words, and actions partly stems from my guilt of how I treated my wife. From a legal POV, a couple of her friends have seen the bruises, so that could be a problem.
W: "Remember when you first threw me against the wall? You used what I told you about how my father threw my mom against the wall, and did the same to me to scare me. You intentionally did it." I acknowledged what I did and told her I regret every single time I hurt her.
W: "Also, I can make sure that the court doesn't give our son to you because you are unpredictable, have an addiction and can't keep a job." I tried my best to let her know that the inability to keep a job and being not focused on the marriage in the first place, and the lying were all linked to my addiction. I explained succinctly that with porn I wasn't focused on her, excelling at work, or on myself. I said that whether she believes me or not, I have kept it under controlled, and it's for my own betterment whether she's around to see it or not. She scoffed and told me she doesn't care. She said again that an addict will be an addict, and that uncertainty is something she doesn't want her son to be exposed to.
There was quite a lot of other things said in-between, but they're mostly rehash of previous conversations. I feel like a pulp after my wife threatened to bring up all those skeletons in court. It's my word against hers, and when the words abuse and addiction are voiced in court, you can bet that it'll be a redflag and biased towards the "victim".
The other part of the conversation I hinted in the previous post went like this:
W: "Just wanting to know if you have plans this coming Saturday. My parents only get in that night, and two of my friends husbands are coming to help me move. So if you'd like to take our son out that day or leave him...I just don't want you to be depressed by being here with the move and all." M: "I think I can think and decide for myself." Due to the porn addiction, my wife and I have become enmeshed like a mother-and-son relationship where she tries to think for me and spoon feed me. So this was me practicing my 180, even though at this stage is should technically be LRT. W: "Ooooh, standing up for yourself, huh?" My wife waved her fist while she sarcastically said that.
Wow, we ALL DO act and talk like children sometimes, even the self-proclaimed level headed ones.
But I remained calm and composed throughout the whole conversation.