The unexamined life is not worth living

[Denver_2010]

I am struggling with that question myself right now Ironman.

The other night during my conversation with my W... the big one. As we were talking about the possibility of reconciliation, she said to me, "You're sitting there wondering how you can ever trust this woman again."

I said, "well, yes, actually." I had already told her how I had gone through this process of considering, truly considering, what my vows meant to me after she left. At this point, I told her that I was feeling that she had now broken those vows. So yes, I was sitting there wondering if I could ever trust this woman again.

Well, her response was this... "When I left you, I was DONE. I was not leaving you so that you would wake up and change. I was done. I hated your guts. And I was already moving on with my life. I planned on leaving you in September while you were out of town, but the place I was going to rent fell through. I was done."

As I see it now... days after the conversation, she was emotionally divorced from me long before I knew that she was even going to leave me.

This is actually typical of the WAW. They plan the walk away for weeks, sometimes months, before they actually execute it.

Now I went back to the issue of vows and trust with my W as I was talking to her.

Me: "I want to be with someone who loves me unconditionally and is not going to break their M vows when things go wrong for a period of time"

W: "Taking vows and giving unconditional love does not mean that you let yourself be trampled and taken advantage of for years, Denver. I gave you unconditional love for 7 years and I tried to make you commit to the M. You never did... And YOU abandoned our M long before I ever thought about leaving. You broke your vows to love and cherish me... If we decide to work on this, you know that I am a good person... and that I will be loyal to you... you KNOW that."

Me: "Yes I do. Everything that you have just said is right. You deserved more... I thought that if I gave you a percentage of what you were asking for that that should've been good enough. But you deserve it all W. I just want to know that if we decide to work on this that you aren't going to run for the hills the next time we hit a rocky patch."

Sorry Ironman... probably more info than needed for this response. My point is, is that our vows and unconditional love are in the eyes of the beholder. And maybe, they don't mean that someone must live unhappily for the rest of their life bc they have made those vows or have promised unconditional love. Maybe there is a trump card when it is someone's personal happiness involved.

See... told you. I'm struggling with these concepts myself here.

BITS
Denver

[downandoutintn]

Denver,

I have been following your posts for a couple of weeks now. You have been working too hard to give up now. I have been through this exact same sitch that you have except that my WAS fell into the arms of one of my best friends.

He is a person that I have memories of when I eat certain foods, I hear certain songs, I see certain vehicles, and now sometimes when I look at my wife. It will probably always be this way but here is what I can tell you from my sitch. I was able to deal with this with no problems, or rubbing it in her face as long as things were going good. When she would start bringing my skeletons out of my closet then I would bring hers out and that would be the only time I would mention his name.

Hopefully in your case you don't know the OM. Me knowing him so well would put some of the most horrible pictures in my head and really bother me. Some weeks it would bother me everyday and then some months it wouldn't bother me at all. The worst part is I have to drive passed his road every day that I go to work.

From what I have read this some thing that you can deal with. The thing to remember is that he was a fill in for you. You were not a fill in for him.

In my current sitch she is seeing another OM. The only difference is this time I know he is a fill in for me. I don't believe he can fill my shoes and in your sitch obviously the OM couldn't fill your shoes because she is back wanting to work things out with YOU!

Remember how you got yourself in this sitch. I say you because from the books that I have read to this point it seems to only take one person to turn things around. I am not saying that she didn't cause some of your actions but you control your destiny at this point.

I feel the same about my vows as you do. It took me 10 years to realize how I was at fault in my sitch and how I can correct it. I don't care if my W has a OM at this point because every day I remember that he is a filler for what she is missing from me.

When me and my W (GF at the time) reconciled she told me that, the OM that she had always wondering what would be like since she was 12 (OM grew up with my W), was not me. She told me that when she kissed him all she could think about was how he was not me. She told me the same thing about the PA too.

You and her committed to each other, it stinks you had to go down this road to wake up, but just remember this. You are on a new road now. You can choose to make a U turn back to where you came from or you can keep moving forward and discover new territory with your W with your new found knowledge and understanding of her. That is truly what is up to you.

One thing I would like to note. I DO NOT APPROVE OF CHEATING IN ANY FORM OR FASHION but I can understand why these WAS can do it with no remorse. There is always 2 sides to a story remember that. She hurt you and you hurt her and there is a reaction for both. Unfortunately she went a different way than what you did.

Pat yourself on the back for taking the high road but don't being her down for not taking the same road. She did what she thought was right for her and apparently it wasn't right for her because she has stopped to pick you up for the "ride". I know it was a long reply but hopefully it will help you in your decision. GOOD LUCK!

[Busting Mode]

Denver,

I felt angry and betrayed when my wife dropped the bomb. It was earth shattering because because I believed I had found a woman who I could completely trust, and then suddenly that no longer seemed to be the case.

Like you, I believed I was taking my vows very seriously, and my wife was the only one who wasn't. In truth, I took advantage of her commitment. I took it as a license to, at best, to try and have my way, and at worst, to completely ignore her needs.

I see there is no honor in such behavior, and now I am learning to trust my wife's feelings and intuition even more.

When I first started DBing, I often asked myself:

"If we ever get back together, how can I be certain she won't do this to me again? How can I be certain she won't betray or abandon my again?"

But now I realize the problem isn't that my wife can't be trusted. It's that I was insecure about being able to consistently meet her needs.

So now I have a chance to practice meeting her needs, albeit not the way that I desire.

I don't think the pain and confusion is there to make me unhappy. I think it is there to make me more aware.


When we finally get the message, when we truly here what the pain has been trying to tell us, we no longer need the pain and can easily let it go.

[Truegritter]

If I reconcile with W, then it looks to these guys, my friends, that I just got walked over. That I was just a doormat and let my W have a PA.

Denver none of these people is in your M.

None of these people have been on your journey.

Look around you. How many people do you think have truly faced the tragedy that you are dealing with here.

How many of them do think would have chosen the hard road you did.

To stand up for what you believe in and live YOUR truth.

YOUR truth not theirs.

Are you are a doormat because someone thinks your a doormat?

If it ever came up, I would defend my W by spilling my guts like I did here... but I'm not sure that it ever would with these guys. And, even if it did, and I spilled my guts like I did here, they would still, most likely, think less of my W and think that I was a doormat.

Why defend at all? You do not owe your true friends an explanation.

Why do you feel you must explain your actions and decisions to someone else?

Whose M is it? Whose life is it Denver?

Believe me I understand this way of thinking and sometimes we feel trapped by it.

Because we have lived our lives concerned about what others think about us, our choices, etc.

You are starting to figure out who you are Denver. The REAL you.

An awakening. You are examining and scrutinizing yourself. A process of self awareness and discovery.

Living that is when it becomes your skin. When the jacket you found becomes you. Self actualization is fancy name for it.

Then it only matters who you see in the mirror every day.

This takes time Denver and you are on the right path.

And I'm afraid that it will be uncomfortable with these people if W and I reconcile and we hang out with them... which will happen of course.

Let it be their choice to be uncomfortable. It is yours to feel it that way as well. It is not a foregone conclusion unless you make it so.

[Truegritter]

"Taking vows and giving unconditional love does not mean that you let yourself be trampled and taken advantage of for years, Denver.

She felt a victim to your behavior. Being a victim and feeling that way is not part of love IMO and is based in fear.

It is an excuse not to look at and take control of the situation and make hard choices.

Still her perception whether true or not. It is true to her.

It is easier to blame the other person for our unhappiness.

What if you were and alcoholic and she had tried to get you to stop drinking by taking all the booze out of the house and begging you to seek help

and you didn't.

You kept making self destructive choices. Choices that hurt her because she cared about you and had taken vows to be your W.

But you still chose to continue your behavior.

Is she obligated by this to sacrifice her life for your choices?

A very extreme example and one that easily demonstrates the dilemna.

So

My point is, is that our vows and unconditional love are in the eyes of the beholder. And maybe, they don't mean that someone must live unhappily for the rest of their life bc they have made those vows or have promised unconditional love. Maybe there is a trump card when it is someone's personal happiness involved.

Or your personal unhappiness.<----- READ THAT AGAIN.

Me? Unconditional love means you can love the person despite their choices. Understand that they are free to make their own choices good or bad.

It does not obligate you to live with their choices or rather the consequences of their choices.

It does not obligate you to sacrifice yourself for the sake of another.

Then you are both lost.

So in the eye of the beholder?

Is living with and alcoholic worse than living with an emotional abuser?

What tear is the last one someone will shed before they say enough?

In the middle lies the truth for two people who want to share their lives together.

[LearningPatience]

Denver,
I've had people comment to me on my sitch saying 'the thing between you, W and OM is weird'. I've told them I agreed it was weird, but that I know what I'm doing and that this sitch won't go on forever.

I too used to, well not worry, but be concerned with what people thought of the whole sitch. What they though of me (doormat, fool, whatever). I can't control any of that other than my actions. Lately, most people have seen me as a pretty upbeat, smiling, laughing person who's trying out new things in life and making the best of it all. I know you can do the same!

[zengypsy]

Holy Sh!t TG... you're insight never ceases to amaze me. Ever time you post stuff, I feel like I'm watching my sitch in a movie!

Denver, you and your W at this juncture are BOTH going to have trust issues. You called her bluff one too many times (as did I with my own sitch), you chose other things over her.

To quote TG..."You kept making self destructive choices. Choices that hurt her because she cared about you and had taken vows to be your W. But you still chose to continue your behavior. Is she obligated by this to sacrifice her life for your choices?"

Look, I am certainly NOT saying what your W did was acceptable. But I really think that she felt justified it by being have the emotional D already in her head. It is totally her truth. You can't change what happend and she can't changed what happend. What you can both do is to continue to grow as individuals and start to get to know each other again. Because the truth for both of you now is that you are not the same people you were before and that's not a bad thing. This will only make you stronger in the end if you get to the point of R. I don't think an A necessarily has to be a deal breaker, but you can only make that decision for yourself and your situation.

And TG is right (yet again)...why should you care what other people think about what you decide to do in YOUR M? True friends support you no matter what and just want you to be happy even if they don't agree with your decision. And some won't but until they have walked in your shoes, they need to shut up.

[hope2011]

I'm having the same struggle. Trust in him after all my many, many trust issues to begin with. Fear of what other people think, etc (because I made the mistake of confiding in my sister and 2 close friends).

It would be easier to leave and start over with someone new. But if we did that, what have we learned? We'll just carry our issues over too. And you'll always wonder what if.

What it all comes down to are our vows, Denver. You hold yours very close, so do I. They are what kept you trying all these months. They haven't changed. I don't know about you, but there are days when they are the only reason I'm still trying but there are plenty of days my H is just unlovable and untrustworthy. But guess what? I have those days too. We all do. Maybe not to the same degree but love isn't easy. Marriage sure as heck isn't easy.

I think you need to figure out not so much whether you can trust your W but how committed you are to the M. If she is the love of your life, the woman you want to grow old with... are you going to fight for that? Because she has to forgive you too and that has to be hard for her. She's not contemplating holding on to her life with you (as you have been doing), she's contemplating giving up her new life and returning to one she didn't like at all. For you. She has trust issues too. What I'm saying is, both of you will have work hard to start over and build a new marriage. You have to get past the past and move forward. If you hesitate, she will know it. If you hold the PA over her head, she'll bolt. If you go back to old habits, she'll regret giving you another chance.

Worrying about your friends, her leaving you again... your ego is getting in the way of your commitment. You know that little angel and devil you warned me about? Which one are you going to listen to, Denver?

Hugs to you today, my friend. I believe in you, we all do.

[figgeroni]

Denver...I felt like I had to save face...I had made several bad choices in my life that DBing showed me...when it was brought up that my ex had an affair (my trump card) and I had done all this hard work...

I thought...crap...if I take him back I am being a doormat (boundaries I was working on) and I need to show I can take care of myself (self-esteem that I was working on)

My fear of other people questioning was certainly a pride thing but also a truth thing...what if they knew more than I did...I was fresh to DBing you know, maybe this DB stuff was what successful relationships had all along...

It took hard work for me to hear my own voice among the rumbles of everything else



I try to look at things this way...
broken vows are broken vows...there is no level for which is worse...no justifications so to speak

it is broken...no matter who did what

you can try and piece them together with bits and pieces from both of you or you can start fresh...with well thought out, sincere vows

Cori and I, having been through what we have been through individually and now together made some simple yet "to the core" vows

We have vowed to show each other every day how much we care...big gestures are not the way to go...small ones...kisses in the morning, coffee made, hearts in the steam on the mirror, holding hands, taking those 10 seconds to say I love you while looking into each other's eyes....
we have vowed to respect each other and to speak up when we feel that is slipping...
to do the hard work without blame

we vowed to not bring up old arguments...old ones are done and are in the past...


so you can hang onto the broken vows you have with your wife that it sounds like both of you broke in your own way (see...there is no level of who broke worse here...they are just broken) and expectt he other oen to try to put back together these broken vows (which no one can really do because only you know how those pieces fit together)

or

you can make new vows...ones that speak to you both...that are unique to you

(for example...I have a flagging self-esteem...I try very hard but I fail at feeling pretty....Cori knows this so he vowed to remind me everyday how beautiful he thinks I am...he does this not just by telling me but by showing me too...he never looks at other women in "that" way, he never mentions the hot babe in the movie...I am not dumb, I know they are there but he never does anything to shake my self-esteem...vows are WORDS AND ACTIONS)

whatever the choice...it has to be a deliberate one...not just one because you think it is the right thing to do

[LearningPatience]

Figgeroni,
I love the ideas of new vows! When (not if!) W and I reconcile I would love to do this. I think it would mean so much more and be truer to ourselves having gone through h3ll and back. Thank you for the simple yet profound idea!

Sorry for the threadjack Denver