Not Counting Chickens Yet...

[Denver_2010]

and boys, it's not "hope i will catch up with you later"

You are funny grr... thanks for the laugh.

BITS
Denver

[2stepboogie]

I can forgive the dating site stuff (am trying to anyway)...

Good! If you really think about it what does it really mean? It means nothing in the big picture I told you I did it because it was exciting and fun but I never intended to do anything other than stroke my own ego, maybe it was not being stroked at home hmmmm something to think about.

"I'm doing it only because I love you and want to make this work, not for any other reason".

This guy is my brother! Few words and few explanations what he is saying, in his mind, should be enough. If it wasn’t so he wouldn’t say it. “How can she not get it. I am telling her the truth. I am telling her I love her. If she still feels like talking about it that is her problem. I can’t be anymore clear” This is in his head. I bet you a box of doughnuts. Is it right? NO. The important to remember is that he is not doing it from a place of negativity or disregarding your feelings, he just doesn’t know what works for him. Ignorance, and blindness is a common disease among us men.

He did get defensive and ask me why I won't let it go since he told me that the panties belonged to the XW twice (on the phone yesterday and this morning).

Hello me, meet the real me! I said this to my W on more than one occasion “W I don’t understand why we are having the same conversation over and over. I’ve told you how I felt about this and you should not worry about that. I don’t get why we need to have the same convo 100 times? You are going to have to deal with it because I am sick of talking about it” Sound familiar?

So here I am. I don't feel comfortable with his answer but I don't think I'll ever get a different answer. So now I have to choose to believe him and DB and try to make this work or choose not to trust him and move on.

That is 100% right sweetie it is your choice.

I am good at finding the problem but not so good and showing solutions. I got it, he can too, but what will it take? That part I don’t know. I hope this helps.

[Denver_2010]

I can forgive the dating site stuff (am trying to anyway)...

Good! If you really think about it what does it really mean? It means nothing in the big picture I told you I did it because it was exciting and fun but I never intended to do anything other than stroke my own ego, maybe it was not being stroked at home hmmmm something to think about.

"I'm doing it only because I love you and want to make this work, not for any other reason".

This guy is my brother! Few words and few explanations what he is saying, in his mind, should be enough. If it wasn’t so he wouldn’t say it. “How can she not get it. I am telling her the truth. I am telling her I love her. If she still feels like talking about it that is her problem. I can’t be anymore clear” This is in his head. I bet you a box of doughnuts. Is it right? NO. The important to remember is that he is not doing it from a place of negativity or disregarding your feelings, he just doesn’t know what works for him. Ignorance, and blindness is a common disease among us men.

He did get defensive and ask me why I won't let it go since he told me that the panties belonged to the XW twice (on the phone yesterday and this morning).

Hello me, meet the real me! I said this to my W on more than one occasion “W I don’t understand why we are having the same conversation over and over. I’ve told you how I felt about this and you should not worry about that. I don’t get why we need to have the same convo 100 times? You are going to have to deal with it because I am sick of talking about it” Sound familiar?

So here I am. I don't feel comfortable with his answer but I don't think I'll ever get a different answer. So now I have to choose to believe him and DB and try to make this work or choose not to trust him and move on.

That is 100% right sweetie it is your choice.

I am good at finding the problem but not so good and showing solutions. I got it, he can too, but what will it take? That part I don’t know. I hope this helps.

What 2Step said Hope. He and I seem to be on a very similar brain wave... and so is your H.

One thing that I haven't mentioned on this board, is that about 2 years into w and I's R (not M), we 'broke up' for about 48 hours. During that 48 hours I reactivated a match.com profile that I had used a few years before.

W found it, sent me a message from a fake girl that she had created on the site. I didn't reply to that bc I wasn't really interested in dating... I was still interested in my W/GF...

W still confronted me on this and nearly ended our R. To this day, she still brings that up as a reason that she doesn't completely trust me!!

And I understand that. I just can't take it back.

Second... If you have read the entirety of my threads, you will see some emails that I kept, like an idiot, from an ex girlfriend. The emails were VERY sexually explicit. They were sent to me about 2 years into my R with my W (about the same time as the match.com thing). I NEVER acted on the emails (they were basically an invite to cheat on W/GF). But I kept the stupid things bc they fed my ego. I didn't look at them for years, and had actually forgotten that they were still on my email account.

W got into my email account a few days before she left me... why, I don't know. Probably looking for more validation for her leaving me. Well she found it when she found those emails. Yes, they were 5 years old, but all she saw was that they occurred during our R.

We guys who have the 'ego' problem are prone to doing some things like this. Even without actually cheating. This is me.

This may be your H as well.

Or, he may be cheating. I really can't give you a good answer to this question as I don't know your H personally. I just know the characteristics that you write about.

Only you can really reach deep down inside yourself and find the true answer.

Yes, it is hard to trust your instincts right now. But that is all you have with this.

The one thing that I can tell you is that he will NEVER admit to it if he has cheated. NEVER.

JMO.

BITS
Denver

[2stepboogie]

I still have a box with pictures of old GF in my attick somewhere. My W new about them but she is not the jelous type at all. Still I kept them because they made me feel like a MAN!

Now I feel like the court jester!

[lostinscared]

Hi Hope,

God, I'm so sorry for your struggle. I hate living in the unknown like that. I sort of have a different take on things right now. So I will start with what I believe is likely and what I don't believe is likely.

What is most likely is that the panties belonged to XW. I just cannot imagine too many men stupid enough to bring another woman's underwear into the house after having an A? I mean think about it. Man has sex with OW, then asks her for her panties, slips them into his pants pockets, sneaks them into the door past W, then slips them in a drawer where W can easily find them? It just doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me. Unless your H is dealing with some severe mental issues, I just don't see this as likely.

BUT, what is bothering me is something you said, "I don't feel comfortable with his answer, but I don't think I'll ever get a different answer." Hope, tell me something... if I were to force you to give me an answer right this second, how would you answer this: do you not believe him because your gut is telling you that or do you not believe him because you are feeling insecure about the dating site debacle? And woman to woman, you know what I am asking you... are your hairs up or are you just feeling paranoid by everything and anything.

Take care, sweetie. I am praying for you.

LIS

[hope2011]

Thank you so much guys for sharing your own stories about dating sites and being men. There is a big difference between you 2 gentlemen and H - you didn't talk to any women. He aggressively perused many women. Ok, so he didn't catch any (that I know of) but it wasn't for lack of trying.

He still has photos of his 2 XW's... and I'm fine with that. I don't expect him to rewrite history because he met me. He has kids, there mom does exist. They were married. I'm ok with that. And he's ok with my photos of my XH and my son. But they are all in boxes, not displayed around the house. He even had both of his old wedding rings until a few months ago and then sold them (his idea, not mine). Neither one of us were virginal when we met, or young. We have pasts. I just don't want any OW in our present. That's my fear.

LIS, I don't know. That's my biggest problem... not trusting my own instinct, being clueless. I've had 4 serious relationships in my 37 years - 2 cheated on me for sure and now H possibly. I had no idea with any of them. Now, I am paranoid, but is it paranoia if it's true? That's my dilemma. I don't know if I am paranoid or insecure or both.

When I confronted him about the dating site, he said he knew I'd find out and at the time, he didn't care. He was done. So I'm not sure about your theory about him being smart enough to not bring panties into our home. Maybe he wanted to get caught? But then, I never go into his drawers. And when I confronted him, he didn't use them a reason to leave.

I'm so confused...

[hope2011]

Denver, you're right... he'll never admit if he has. Not unless I have proof that he can't deny. He did admit the dating site when I confronted him but he could hardly deny something posted on-line for the world to see.

Ya know, he hasn't asked me once what I did with the panties or where they are.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Two books for you hope.
The Gift of Fear and Protecting the Gift by Gavin de Becker.

These are about honing your instinct and learning to trust your gut.

Question what do the men you have been with have in common?
What attracted you to them? What attracted them to you?
Was there infidelity you knew about in your family of origin?
Something to think about.

[hope2011]

Scylla, thank you for the book info, I will definitely look them up.

To answer your questions (let me get comfy on the couch here):

The men I have been with have absolutely nothing in common. I consciously seek out new R's that are nothing like the old in hopes that the next one will be better. Obviously, that isn't working too well for me.

The XH (12 yrs together) was a simple, country boy, my HS sweetheart, a 3 times a week at church type of guy. He cheated with at least 3 women during our 12 years together. But, he was a good dad, supportive of my career, involved with my family, no smoking or drinking or drugs, no partying, a family guy. On the surface, a great, great guy. Just that pesky problem sleeping with OW and leaving me for one. We were young, went through a lot together with our son, both made mistakes. I trusted him with my life, probably the only man I ever fully trusted. When he walked out, I was devastated. Everything I believed in was wrong, everything I had was gone. I cried non-stop for a year.

Ex-boyfriend #1 (2 years after XH, 2 years together) was a laid back, beach bumb computer geek. Didn't find out until we moved in together that he was so laid back because he's a pot addict and a party boy when he was drunk, had no ambition and wanted me to support him - but he was very loyal, very complimentary and never cheated. I left because of the addictions, that's not the life I wanted and he wouldn't give it up. 10 years later, he's still the same.

Ex-boyfriend #2 (6 months after last R, 2 years together) was a rich kid, went to private schools, ivy league college, was a model at one time he was so good-looking, high standards, high ambition. I helped build his new company in the 2 years we were together. He was however, selfish, another alcoholic and a commitment phobe. After 2 years, he wouldn't decide on a future with me. I was 34, wanted kids, marriage, a family life. When I bought it up, asking where he saw us down the road, he started talking to an OW. He was never involved in my career or my life. We only saw each other on weekends and were working on his business so I didn't really see the problems until I started asking for more from him and he ran. He had major mother issues and needed someone to take care of him, which I did. I needed someone to take care of so I guess that helped me too. Until I needed him.

6 months after that R, after dating a ton (meaning dozens but only dates without even kisses), I met H and drug my feet getting serious with him (or anyone else). He aggressively pursued me and at the same time I started dating someone else I was interested in. Both wanted an exclusive R (I hadn't been serious or physical with either) so I had to choose. I chose H - because I thought he was calmer, less likely to break my heart as the other guy was more passionate, talked more, very romantic. I wanted safe, kind, romantic but not loud or too aggressive. H was telling me everything I wanted to hear, was supportive, helped with my career, said he wanted more kids, wanted to find "the one" and stay married forever, that he'd never cheated in a R and couldn't abide cheaters, that he couldn't deal with alcoholics, that he didn't like drama. I believed him. He swept me off my feet, he was amazing, all those things and more and it was a 2 year whirlwind romance where we were each other best friends and both of us very happy. Then we got married and he took it all back (though he's been trying the past month).

The other guy... married, very happily, she adopted his 4 yr old daughter and now she's pregnant and every once in a while I see their photos on FB (joint friends) and I'm so happy for her and for him but I still wonder, what if? Especially when H is yelling or I'm finding panties in his drawer, or when he changed his mind about having more kids. I feel cheated, literally. I don't want the other guy at all, I really don't. I think he just symbolizes my life of bad choices. I want the man I thought H was and the life we were supposed to have. But I don't know if he fooled me or I'm fooling myself.

I think you all can see the type of man H is by my posts. He's very high ambition, living large, successful (was, before the market crash), materialistic, egotistical, superficial. Which is all hard to see when someone does have money... it's when they lose it and how they react to it that those qualities are more visible. But he's also very funny, a good dad, great with people, romantic. He knows how to be the best H in the world... I've seen it. He know hows to be romantic and supportive and compassionate, etc. He just chooses not to be or not to be based on his mood, whether he feels I deserve it.

My father is a recovering alcoholic, verbally, emotionally and physically abusive. Retired military, now running a business, he never sits still. He stopped drinking 20 years ago because of health issues but still thinks and acts like an addict. My childhood was hell when he was home. A horrible dad, not family oriented at all. Has cheated on my mother several times in their 38 year marriage and has never been supportive of her. He's beat her down until she has no self-esteem anymore and is too scared to leave. She's now almost 60 and I have watched her lose her youth, her middle age and now is going into her golden years with this man who she hasn't shared a bed with in 15 years. She stayed for us kids, then she stayed because she was scared, now she's staying to raise grandkids and take care of her elderly mother. She gave her whole life to others and never found happiness or love for herself and she's such a sweet person. My father and I have a cordial relationship now. I stood up to him in my 20's when my son died and he finally stopped trying to bully me. Before that, I'd cry and fall to pieces with every conversation.

XH - I married who I thought was the exact opposite of my father. Surprise! He wasn't the exact opposite, he was a cheater too.

X-boyfriend's - both alcoholics. You'd think I would've figured that out early on in dating, but I didn't. They hide it well. It's not until I lived with one and dated the other for a year before I saw that they both drank every night. 1 would drink a half bottle of Jim Beam, the other a half bottle of bourbon. Neither could sleep without it, both were mean drunks if they drank more than that. The first, I stayed because I had moved in with him, his family wanted to help get him sober, he was begging me to marry him and have kids with him, etc. It took me a while to emotionally detach and realize he would always be an alcoholic. The second, I truly thought the drank only the weekends for a year and a half. What can I say? I am slow.

My H now... I thought he was the opposite of all of them. I had a list of what I didn't want / wouldn't put up with and he fit it. He was my Prince Charming. I didn't just fall into his arms, I wasn't looking for a serious R at the time. But there he was and I thought finally God had sent me a good one.

My biggest fear is that I married my first H because he was the opposite of my father. I married my second H because he was different from my first H and not a drinker. But when you keep looking for opposites, eventually you come full circle.

I didn't rush from R to R. I didn't date for 2 years after XH. I was DB'ing, working on me, making big changes in me too, working hard to never repeat the same mistakes (I haven't. I invented all new ones!), to know how to be a good person in a good R. There are at least 6 months between R's. I dated lots of guys between. But I'm old-fashioned a bit (I know, sounds hard to believe with all these R's)... I don't sleep around, I don't kiss anyone until at least the 3rd date and very few make it past the 2nd date because I try to be picky and not fall into a R just to not be alone. So I casually dated, I had fun, I met a lot of different guys, I took time finding myself too.

I just need to join a convent.

[lostinscared]

Hope, you wouldn't last a second in a convent, so I would hold off on those vows. You have goals and dreams that do not involve the convent.

I wish to God, I could get you to talk to my mom. Your story and hers are so very similar it is frightening.

I have a big problem with the fact that you don't trust your gut. I completely understand it being so confusing at times because of all the craziness going on, but we all have these basic gut instincts when moments of clarity come. You are telling me that this isn't happening. Has your past beaten you down so much that you've gotten to the point that you don't trust yourself anymore? These things that happened to you, these relationships that happened, they aren't your fault. People in your life made bad decisions in their own lives. And sometimes, we aren't going to see that until it happens. People change. Listen, I spent much of my life being a commitment phobe. I dated my husband better than 8 years before I married him. But, I wouldn't ever, ever, ever, consider leaving him. I mean that is just so different from who I started out to be in life.

I really apologize if I'm getting too personal and if I am, tell me to back off. Did your first H and you begin having problems when you lost your son?