Not Counting Chickens Yet...

[ScaredinCanada]

Honestly from what you've said it would seem that he probably did at some point, but not currently...but I could be wrong.

Does it really matter though if he's not cheating now? You said you could forgive and move past. I still believe you have to find in your own heart what that cheating would mean to you.

I know I overcame and in some ways I think I'm a stronger person for having to deal with it. At the same time I can't even really put it words to explain to you why I was able to forgive.

Virtually everyone I know told me I was crazy to forgive her and want her to come home.

I think you need to do some serious soul searching to understand if you want this M to work at any price.

Good luck tonight when he gets home, and remember no matter what to be calm, listen and validate what he says.

BITS
SIC

[hope2011]

Bump^

[hope2011]

He's home, acting like nothing is wrong. I asked to talk tomorrow. I will ask him to tell me the truth about the panties. I know I risk my world blowing apart again or him continuing to lie, but I can't move forward or forgive or leave if I don't know the truth. A marriage based on lies isn't a marriage. I don't know what else to do.

[Denver_2010]

Denver and 2step... fly out here and take my H out for a beer?

And to knock some sense into him for treating such a wonderful woman the way that he is? Yes.

R talk... because I'm insecure. Because after being completely disillusioned in December and thinking we were happy while he was on the dating site the whole time.... I need to know we're together. I need to know he's being faithful. I need to know he's in this 100%. Right now we're just happily moving along, pretending like all that didn't happen. I'm scared to rock the boat. Scared to bring it up. But I need to talk. I need to know. I need to feel close to him and I can't do that if we are scared to talk about things. I tried a bit of R talk this morning and asked if we were ok. Asked if I was a priority and not an option (per the old quote - "don't make someone a priority who only makes you an option" or something like that). Asked he was really committed to me. His response. "Yes, as long as you don't go psycho". Huh? WTH does that mean?! When I asked him what that meant, he couldn't answer. I asked if he meant as long as I don't get upset or disagree with him? He said no and laughed it off. Seriously, "psycho"?!?! He really doesn't get that he's pretty darn lucky I'm still here and love him and am trying hard to make both of us happy.

Yes, he is lucky. And he doesn't know it. The psycho comment most likely came as more of a joke than him being serious I'm guessing. He is uncomfortable with R talk right now. So he uses comments such as that to deflect the convo. My guess anyway. Was the comment insensitive and open for misinterpretation? Hell yeah! But he's a man. We're not very bright sometimes.

Personally, I wouldn't push him too much with the R talk. It's too early. I know that you feel that you need validation. Do you REALLY need that right now? Wouldn't be okay to just continue to have positive experiences with H for the time being?

Are you going to believe him if the R talk goes well... so soon after his WAH incident? And how will you feel if it doesn't go well? What would you do? Leave him?

My H has a big ego, compounded by insecurity and selfishness = narcissism. When he's nice, he's amazing. When he's being a jerk, he's really a jerk. He's nice when he wants something or gets his way.... not because he's personally driven by compassion to just be nice. That sounds awful, but it's true. I know if I work to make him happy, he'll try to make me happy. He will never, ever be nice just to be nice. We are wired completely differently. I am too nice.

Did you know all of this when you M'd him?

Has he changed? Or, have you?

So do I spend the rest of my life being nice to him, walking around on eggshells, being a happy robot, hoping he'll be nice back? That's the question. No one should have to earn compassion. I just want to relax, to be able to breathe again, to trust him with my heart and soul, to know that today, tomorrow, 20 years from now... he'll be by my nice, kind, loyal, loving me no matter what. I want to believe deep down he's a good man who's scared. But I don't want to believe in a fantasy either.

Only you can decide Hope. I know that it is hard. I'm sorry that I can't give you a good answer.

I guess I just keep keeping on. Being positive around him, being supportive, being funny and fun. Being the wife he wants and needs. And hoping and praying he continues on the path he's on of trying to be a good H and hoping and praying he's being honest and faithful. DB'ing on faith.

Until it gets good again, or until you can't anymore.

BITS
Denver

[Denver_2010]

Hope - I'm sorry. I didn't fully catch up with your thread prior to my last response.

I know that you are hurting. I'm sorry.

I'm thinking of how I should respond to what has happened today...

BITS
Denver

[2stepboogie]

Hope,

I hope you are in a better state of mind. I have spent so much time trying to understand my W that now I am trying to think like my old self to really respond honestly.

The panties.........I don't know if that is a clear indication that he is cheating to be honest with you. This will sound terrible but most men keep things from previous conquest as a sign of accomplishment. I can't say that is the case here but other than the panties what real proof do you have? He was on a dating site? I don't think that really means anything.

When my W was here I was feeling a lot of the same emotions she was feeling, once at work I visited a dating site just to see who was out there, sounds terrible I know but I was curious. I never intended on doing anyone, shortly after she left I was so pissed I actually signed up to like 4 different sites. I ended up not answering any of the emails I got.

Some men sometimes just like to test the waters a little bit to make sure they have not lost their sex appeal. It is wrong and very insensitive, but it is the truth.

Your husband sound like I use to be but I don’t think it has anything to do with how he feels about you as much as it has to do with how he feels about himself and his inability to communicate with you in a way that you appreciate. I always thought I was perfect the way I was, the entire issue was my “crazy” W to the point that she started to believe it. When I look at it now I am ashamed but it took a helluva lesson to teach me. I hope it will not come to that for him or you.

Men think and communicate differently, as I am sure you know, for me action speaks I don’t know your H but I am assuming he is similar to me. What actions? That is the part I am struggling with in your case. The more you share the more I get to know him.

[hope2011]

SIC, Denver, 2step... thank you so much for responding and calming me down a bit.

I

Honestly from what you've said it would seem that he probably did at some point, but not currently...but I could be wrong.

Does it really matter though if he's not cheating now? You said you could forgive and move past. I still believe you have to find in your own heart what that cheating would mean to you.

I know I can't forgive him if he has a PA. I know myself. I spent 2 years DB'ing the XH after I found out about his 3 PA's. I don't regret it at all, I needed that for me. But I'm not willing to do that again in this situation for several reasons:

#1. My heart can't survive that again.
#2. I know I will never trust him again.
#3. We've only been married for 2 years. 2 bad years. I'm trying to save it, turn it around because I see hope, I see lines not crossed, a chance at a good marriage. I don't have a good marriage to remember here... only good dating. Wow, that sounds so bad!
#4. I'm 37. My biological clock is ticking. Am I willing to risk that on a man who cheats on me? No, I'm honestly, not.
#5. I'm his 3rd wife. If he doesn't understand the importance of vows by now, he never will.

I know everything I said goes against DB. I'm not a quitter, that goes against everything I am. I'm having a major internal struggle over what to do.

I'm thinking of how I should respond to what has happened today...

Thank you, Denver.

Hope,

I hope you are in a better state of mind. I have spent so much time trying to understand my W that now I am trying to think like my old self to really respond honestly.

The panties.........I don't know if that is a clear indication that he is cheating to be honest with you. This will sound terrible but most men keep things from previous conquest as a sign of accomplishment. I can't say that is the case here but other than the panties what real proof do you have? He was on a dating site? I don't think that really means anything.

When my W was here I was feeling a lot of the same emotions she was feeling, once at work I visited a dating site just to see who was out there, sounds terrible I know but I was curious. I never intended on doing anyone, shortly after she left I was so pissed I actually signed up to like 4 different sites. I ended up not answering any of the emails I got.

Some men sometimes just like to test the waters a little bit to make sure they have not lost their sex appeal. It is wrong and very insensitive, but it is the truth.

Your husband sound like I use to be but I don’t think it has anything to do with how he feels about you as much as it has to do with how he feels about himself and his inability to communicate with you in a way that you appreciate. I always thought I was perfect the way I was, the entire issue was my “crazy” W to the point that she started to believe it. When I look at it now I am ashamed but it took a helluva lesson to teach me. I hope it will not come to that for him or you.

Men think and communicate differently, as I am sure you know, for me action speaks I don’t know your H but I am assuming he is similar to me. What actions? That is the part I am struggling with in your case. The more you share the more I get to know him.

2step... thank you. I needed to hear all that. I can forgive the dating site stuff (am trying to anyway)... I understand that. You're right, other than the site and the panties, I have no proof. No texts or phone records of an OW, no e-mails, no missing time, nothing. That should make me feel assured that he hasn't cheated... but it doesn't. It's still panties in his dresser drawer from another woman.

H came home last night but we didn't talk. The boys were in a mood (grounded because of bad grades) and grating on H so I didn't think it was a good time to talk. This morning though he was in a better mood. Laying in bed, drinking his coffee, reading the news I summoned up enough courage to say:

Me - "H, for the past month you've been amazing. You've been thoughtful, attentive, compassionate, supportive, kind, affectionate. It's been amazing and I really appreciate all you've been doing and how hard you're trying. But I need to know... are you doing all this because you love me and want to make it work or are you" and he cut me off there.

H - "I'm doing it only because I love you and want to make this work, not for any other reason".

Me - "Please tell me the truth. Where did those panties come from?"

I can't remember the exact words but H swears they are his XW's, that he didn't remember they were there. That he bought them for her and when she moved out when they broke up she threw them at him and said "guess I won't need these anymore!" and he doesn't know why he put them in that drawer. Said I could go through any of his drawers and throw anything away. He kept talking about the boxers and going on and on about how he doesn't remember who bought those for him or where he got them. More than the panties. I finally said I didn't care about the boxers (they have tags on them still so at least I know he didn't wear them for anyone).

The conversation went on for just 10 or 15 minutes. He did get defensive and ask me why I won't let it go since he told me that the panties belonged to the XW twice (on the phone yesterday and this morning). I got a bit upset and said "I found out YESTERDAY. I have had 2 very short conversations with you about it and I haven't raised my voice or accused you of anything. You have to let me ask questions, you have to let me talk things through". He got softer and said "ok". I dropped it after that and changed the subject.

So here I am. I don't feel comfortable with his answer but I don't think I'll ever get a different answer. So now I have to choose to believe him and DB and try to make this work or choose not to trust him and move on.

What do I want my end result to be? To be happy, in a healthy, loving, honest, faithful marriage with a man who values his vows as much as I value mine. Can H be that man? I really don't know.

The odd thing is today that feeling I've had the last month of something dropping on my head is gone. Maybe that was it. Maybe now I can move forward.

[Denver_2010]

I'm sorry for where you are at right now Hope.

This truly is a tough call from my perspective.

BITS
Denver

[grr]

hope, i will catch up with you and post a bit later
hang in there
xo

[grr]

and boys, it's not "hope i will catch up with you later"