The Moment of Clarity

[Truegritter]

I knew what you meant...but maybe only me.

[hope2011]

Great goals.

I finally had time to sit down and read posts and just spent the last hour catching up fully on everything you've been through the past week. Reading it all instead of skimming and trying to keep up (sorry about my odd comment the other day, obviously I had only skimmed!).

It does seem like a lot of BITS are having a rough week. Maybe it's because we're all highstrung on emotions with V day next week? And the WAS' probably are too. Maybe we'll all even out better come February 15th.

I'm really sorry about this roller coaster you're on this week. I honestly don't understand what your W is up to or why she's so conflicting in her statements to you. I don't think she's necessarily cake eating but I don't understand why you are giving her money? She does need to see life without you, she needs to miss you. You can't be a safety net because you know what happens to safety nets? People fall on them and then bounce right back off and go right back to the tightrope/ledge/craziness they need a safety net for. I know being there for her is a 180 for you and I understand your frustration and not wanting to be a doormat but wanting to 180 and prove you've changed. I completely understand.

I don't have any advice. I think everyone has given you some great advice and feedback and I can't add to it. But I do want to say that I understand and I relate to the doormat stuff though differently. Piecing is no piece of cake though and getting there isn't either. DB is hard at every single stage and not for the weak. We all have our weak moments. Or weak weeks.

However hard it is now, it will get better. Someday we will be happy again, no matter how this all turns out. Believe in that.

[Denver_2010]

I don't want to pour ice water on your hope, but I think you need to go to meet her with your head out of any fog that has clouded your brain.

I am suspicious when a WAW, who is in an A, initiates a R talk. Please do not go to this meeting thinking that she wants to R the M. I am concerned that you could be setting yourself up for more pain. Just go to hear what she has to say.

Thanks Sandi for taking a look at my recent developments and giving me your insight.

Yes, I absolutely need to go into this dinner/meeting with my W with a clear head.

I plan to listen to her, validate what she is saying, and then listen some more. My concern is, is that it is almost going to be like a closing argument that I do in my trials for my job. That she is going to be looking for me to make a strong case to convince her that R is what she should do.

My instinct, with what I know about my W, is that she is looking for a way to R and still walk out of this whole WAW mess looking like she did the right thing by leaving and so that she doesn't look like the 'bad guy'.

My concern, with what I know about WAWs, is that you might be right Sandi. That I am setting myself up by having my hope and expectation too high.

I'm aware of this danger. But thank you, and to Gypsy also, for making sure that I do.

You've already hashed this thing from almost every angle and haven't even heard her yet. It will drive you nuts.

Ain't that the truth! It has been the bane of my existence this week!

You pretty well laid out your part of the R talk when you and she were texting back & forth.......and I might add, you were too eager in your messages. It was evident to me and I think your WAW probably saw it as well.

I know... my bad.

I think she will want you to "rescue" her in some way....and that will be what the "talk" will be about. My warning to you is to be very careful what you leap into as she talks. You need to keep quiet and listen very carefully to what she says....and especially to what she doesn't say. When she finishes, then think before you speak. After all, she already knows hos you feel. You've been plain about that.

I honestly don't think that she will be asking me to 'rescue' her in anyway. That simply isn't my W. She'd rather become homeless and live in a cardboard box under a bridge than to ask me to help her... unless, she's also realizing some things that she's giving up by leaving M and some things that she's missing about me. That's why I haven't been too concerned about helping her out recently. I could be wrong though.

My concern lies more in the danger that her money problems are the driving force behind her wanting to work on M. I don't want her to come back to me bc of money. Knowing her, I don't think that she would CONSCIOUSLY make that decision based on her recent problems, but SUBCONSCIOUSLY? I don't know. I would prefer that she come back bc she sees my changes and remembers the other positives about me... or at least a combo of all of that.

If she doesn't willingly tell you that OM is completely out of her life, then it's a no-go. That has to be the main issue, or else she is using you to rescue her financially or some other way.

If she kind of puts the idea of R out there.....almost teasing you to see what you will propose, be careful. She doesn't need to come back until she knows 100% that she's ready to work on your M.

Agreed on the OM issue. Absolutely. Also, I agree that she has to know that she is 100% ready to work on M.

However, my concern with the OM issue is that I REALLY don't know if this was ever an A. In my opinion, it was an EA... In my W's opinion, at least how she has expressed it to me and to her family in the past, is that it was not. She may tell me something completely different tomorrow night, and that is, BY FAR, my greatest concern bc I don't know if I will be able to hold it together if she tells me that she had a PA with OM. I may just throw up right there on the table.

If she continues to tell me that OM is just a friend, well then, I may find myself in a bind. Bc she does NOT recognize EA for what it is, she may be adamant that she has never done anything wrong with this and that it is NOT an issue that needs to be resolved for us to work on M or to R. If I argue with her, which any expression of disagreement on this issue would be as far as she is concerned, then I risk pushing her farther away. If I don't disagree with her on the issue, then I am at least temporarily accepting the continued existence of OM in my W's life. I know that WAW's use the 'he's just a friend' line all of the time when there is an A. But when we are talking about EAs, there are many people who don't even accept the existence of such A's. I was one of those people until I was on the other end of it. But my W never accused me of EA. She just didn't like my friendships with OW. I see the light on this issue, but my W has not read everything that I have. How can I possible be expected to try and force my W to acknowledge an EA when she doesn't even think that they exist?

With this, I may just do my best to remain silent for the time being. That way I can at least take some time to regroup and think about how I want to approach the problem.

Thanks again Sandi.

[Denver_2010]

so many days and nights I have cried and I cry a lot while reading the posts .. not because I share in the misery but because of the understanding..

I know i'm not alone in my struggle and I wish you all the very best luck in your positions.

thanks for this post denver.

"if I had to take away a star in the sky for every time I missed you. I'd be sitting here in the dark"

Thanks Chrysalid. That was sweet. And no, you are not alone in this struggle.

[Denver_2010]

If we leave once we are "enlightened" how does that make us different than what they chose to do?

Exactly. Which is why this statement from J3Bs was so great IMO:

"You come out of this a better person, and you can hold their hand while they grow...slowly and you both build to become a better couple."

Along the way you learn through your own suffering and pain what all this means to you.

I have learned a lot over the past couple of months about what this all means to me.

I still have bouts of sadness, frustration, and just recently, anger, over how unfair that it is that I am the only one 'learning'. That my W, most likely, is not.

Mostly though, this happens when I let my 'ego' do my thinking. What I truly want going forward is to lead in my M by example... to be the change that I want.

My 'ego', which has been severely pummeled by all of this, keeps wanting to push that thinking back into the inner depths of my mind. This has been my struggle this week.

It takes two people to make a healthy M. If one is not healthy then the other is relagated to the role of co-dependent or fixer.

THAT is what I learned that I was and continued to be after we split.

I wanted to save her from her own choices.

THAT is not healthy for me. THAT is not healthy for her.

So what you see on my thread, where I am today, is a man who has walked down a very hard road.

I have had to face myself in the mirror and be honest for what I chose(in my M)was choosing(through this process) and will choose.

Will choose?

I agree that being a 'fixer' is not healthy for either party in a M. But here I also struggle with where I am RIGHT NOW.

My W has not been going through this process as I have. Or at least I assume that she hasn't. So I doubt that she has recognized that I was a 'fixer' and that this was not healthy for us. That it created a dynamic where I was almost a parental figure in our M early on and that negatively affected our R by not allowing us to view each other as having even and equal roles in the M. Even after my 'fixing' wasn't needed as much.

BC of that, and bc I was also insensitive and selfish in the way that I viewed her problems and how they affected me, I NOW have a choice... 1) Stop 'cold turkey' being the 'fixer' and 2) go ahead and help her, 'fix', the problems that she is creating by having left the M. If I choose option 1, then I am the same insensitive and selfish person that I was before, which was a major reason why she left. If I choose option 2, then I am enabling her and not promoting a more healthy balance in the R between the two of us.

It's a tough choice right now bc I don't want to push her away from me when I sense that she is coming closer.

What if your W came to you right now, and, as mine has, gave you an indication that there are thoughts of reconciliation in her mind and heart? What would you do? What would you do if what your W needed for that to grow into something more was some affirmation that you still want her? Would you continue to make her initiate all contact?

I would pay attention to her actions not her words.

I would ask myself what it might look like if she had done her work and started to make changes in herself to take responsibility in our M.

What I would need to see to place my trust in her again.

I would look, NOT LISTEN, to what I think it would take for me to enter into a NEW relationship with my W.

My old M was DOA. My W has some serious issues from her childhood that she must confront and begin to deal with.

I cannot help her with that. No one can.

She is still with OM I believe and until that bandaid is ripped off there will not be any steps by her toward a healthy relationship.

To be honest I was the OM when we met trying to save her.

All of this was very tough for me because I love my W.

I no longer confuse fixing her life, taking care of her and being available for her as a crutch ...

with love.

There is nothing I can do for her right now as much as that is a painful thing for me to realize.

She must figure this out on her own. Without me or feeling that she can reach to me for emotional fix UNTIL she is committed to our M.

That means us as a team. Not anyone else. The two of us. And unfortunately she does not choose that right now.

I guess in my question to you that should have thrown out there that her R with OM was over. So your W reaches out to you, OM is gone, and she gives you some indication that she wants to reconcile. She is not enlightened, has not dealt with her emotional issues... don't we, as a truly loving S, have role, maybe even a responsibility, to lead and/or help move the M towards reconciliation so that it can become healthy again. You S isn't going to do it bc she hasn't learned the tools necessary. But you have. I am learning them.

So here, there is another paradox I think. We don't want to be, we shouldn't be, 'fixers', but at the same time, our S may need to be led. In many ways, this goes back to the quote I pasted above from J3Bs.

Grit - if your W came to you and indicated that she was interested in seeing if reconciliation was possible, but she wasn't 100% sure, would you walk away from her and tell her that she needed to go fix herself first?

I think that THAT is the crux of the question I was asking you... and in some ways, the question that I am asking myself.

My sh!t is out there for this very reason Denver.

I do not shy away from my journey good or bad, mistakes or triumphs.

And this work will never be done for me.

I didn't quote some of your other comments about the sweater fitting like my skin and about your character being what we are when the lights are off at home. Those all hit home with me when I read them on your thread. I think that they are so true.

And I know that you don't shy away from this stuff. That's what I like about talking with you. I sense that I get your inner most feelings on whatever it is that you are speaking about.

Thanks again Gritter. Reading your words and answering your questions has really helped me find a lot of answers within myself.

Denver

[Denver_2010]

Along those lines? I'm not sure I would have taken my wife back if I hadn't become a better person.

That, also, is a very interesting thought J3B. I'm pretty sure that the 'old' Denver would have told W to f herself after what she has done without recognizing my role in what has happened, and without recognizing that these situations are NOT so black and white.

[Denver_2010]

Wow, I stay off this thing for a day and the world explodes. Dang it, Denver. You have come full circle before I could even jump in.

So, instead of re-hashing the stuff here already, I want to send you a personal message of solidarity. I AM SO HERE WITH YOU RIGHT NOW!!!

One of the biggest reasons why my W left is because I was an insensitive *sshole who always put himself first and the marriage second. I swear we are twin brothers who were separated at birth. The burning question is how do we proceed? You are absolutely right to be confused.

Despite what the book says and what other members say here, there has to be a time that we have to stop with the going "dark" and the acting "as if" and all the other stuff and just show them that we can still love them in the way that they want to be loved. No, you can't just let them suffer when they are in trouble. At some point, they are going to come to the conclusion that you have moved on and don't care anymore. So, now what????

I worry about this quite a bit lately. At some point, the thought is going to cross her mind that I don't care anymore. I have been so freaking "matter of fact" and "as if" lately that there is no sign of me having any emotions. This is what I grilled the DB coach about the other night. When do you know that it might be time to turn off the stuff and just show them you still care? Who knows.

Unfortunately, I am not there yet. After watching my W stand there in my kitchen last night and just shove her "look at me attitude" in my face, I do realize that I still have a very, very long way to go.

My advice as your wing man it this... Be there for her, but stop volunteering so much. This part of the other posts I do agree with. Somehow, find a way to be there for her without hovering or immediately scooping her up when trouble appears. No, you are not a doormat. You are a good man who loves his W and doesn't want her to be in pain. But, you may have to let her feel some of that pain before she will "come to."

In my opinion, which isn't worth much, you are close to a break-through here. But, I don't think it is going to happen as quickly as you would like. Keep that in mind. Yes, I do realize that will be the hardest part. I am right there with you also...

This is why I love the BITS so much FOBD. We are all in such similar situations and see things so similarly. Except the part where you say that you opinion isn't worth much, I think that everything that you said above is so dead on that I won't even break it down and respond to each part. You are right FOBD, as usual.

The only part that I will breakdown some is the part where you say that you are not there yet with your situation. I agree. I think that once your W starts contacting you and begins to make some contradictory statements that you will need to reassess. Once you start seeing some things happening that, based on what you know about your W specifically, gives you an indication that there is movement in HER thinking, then you will need to consider if you need to adjust your strategy.

BITS!
Denver

[Truegritter]

I guess in my question to you that should have thrown out there that her R with OM was over. So your W reaches out to you, OM is gone, and she gives you some indication that she wants to reconcile. She is not enlightened, has not dealt with her emotional issues... don't we, as a truly loving S, have role, maybe even a responsibility, to lead and/or help move the M towards reconciliation so that it can become healthy again.

I think that depends Denver. For me at least.

I would have to be able to trust that she is coming back for the right reasons.

I would have to be able to trust or have faith that she is capable of doing the work, and commits to doing it.

I already know that I cannot convince her to do that so really I guess it is up to her to convince me she wants it.

If she showed that to me. Yes I would be open to reconciliation.

Saying we are responsible for them is a slippery slope Denver.

You only control one side of the equation.

I NOW have a choice... 1) Stop 'cold turkey' being the 'fixer' and 2) go ahead and help her, 'fix', the problems that she is creating by having left the M.

I would not assume that she expects you to fix or rescue.

From what you described you treated your W like a child. Do you think she likes that?

Wants more of the same?

If she ASKS you for help then it is up to you whether you decide to give it. Or what is fair in the situation.

This was not your choice it was hers. So for her to ask you for help with her choice...

Doesn't really go along with the space and freedom idea does it.

Kinda contradicts huh?

There is a middle of the road choice here if you have the fortitude to do it.

It is not overly friendly nor shutting her off either.

When she calls show her the new Denver. Let her lead the convo. Don't ask a bunch of questions or about how she's doing etc. let her tell you.

Don't call her let her call you.

See what happens.

Denver this is not a thing of absolutes but I can tell you that the more space you give her, validation and stop fixing the better you both will be.

The best thing for her is for her to live her choices and for you to let her live with the consequences.

Your logic is to get her back to M first.

IMO there has not been enough time apart. The turkey has just started to cook.

I say all this with the caveat that you know your W better than we.

Anyway it is a good question and I remember thinking through it myself.

My asnwer was to detach from what was happening in her life and what she was choosing.

I heard a lot of words early on like you that I thought she might be thinking of coming back

In the end space was the answer for me but I did a lot of what you are doing.

It's not wrong it just can be very tiresome and painful.

That's just what I learned.

[Denver_2010]

The problem lies in that I can't set any boundaries right now. I have to be a doormat without seeming to be a doormat!! Without feeling like a doormat!

I disagree with this statement. Do you feel like a doormat? Why? She is your W correct? I also disagree with the fact that you can’t set boundaries; for you it might be one thing for me another. I will travel this lonely road alone, I will suffer and I will learn but I will not lose myself and become someone I am not. I have my boundaries set with my W, a point I will not cross.

That statement is really, really true 2Step. There are definitely things that I would not accept with W regardless of how that affected the outcome.

I have been worried that I am letting my W cake eat bc of how it may appear to those who do not know her like I do. In fact, I KNOW that she would never, ever come to me for help with anything unless she felt that there was still love between us and hope for our M.

This just made me think of something that happened about 2 weeks after my W dropped the bomb that she was definitely leaving our home and that the M was over... and happened just days before she actually did leave.

My W was car shopping. I was in the middle of pleading. begging, crying, and doing anything AND everything to try and convince her to change her mind. So I took a couple of days off from work and worked my a*s off to find the perfect car for her. The very car that she was looking for. I negotiated the price down to something that we/she could afford and finalized the deal. My W was working so was having a hard time finding the time to go out and do this herself. That is why I took it upon myself to do it. She kept telling me not to bc she felt badly that I was using my time and that the situation was what it was. When it came down to her coming down, signing the papers, and paying the down payment, I offered to give her $2,000 for additional downpayment so that her monthly payments would be right at what she had budgeted. She flat out refused to let me do this. W told me that it was not my responsibility at that point and that she didn't want to 'use' me like that.

I point this out, bc this is what I would expect my W to do if she believed that she was done with me, which she did at that time. I guess that this is why I don't think that W's acceptance of financial help that I have offered her recently is an indication of her 'using' me. And why I haven't felt the need to put up a boundary here.

Or maybe, I'm fooling myself. Who knows!

Another issue with this money thing is that if we do reconcile, I don't want her finances to be so jacked up that it puts our marital finances in a bad way! What am I suppose to do here?!?!

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. If you do reconcile……….the key work being IF. If you help her, then help her because it comes from the heart and you want to. I know about the finances trust me but if my W and I reconcile I will accept her as she is and through my changes I will have a better M that will enrich both our lives.

This is true also 2Step. The financial thing and how it affects our M finances WHEN we reconcile is only a secondary concern of mine.

I use the word WHEN rather than IF 2Step bc I believe in the power of positive thinking. I think that you should start viewing your sitch as something that is going to have a positive outcome rather than one that may have a positive outcome. There is so much fear of being hurt by having expectation amongst us all on this board. I fear it too. But it will not kill me. I will survive if I am wrong... I may come crying to you all though

How is it possible to love someone and want them so much yet feel so much anger and hate for them at the same time?

That is a good question. I get my answer every time I pass a mirror and see my reflection. Only the question changes to “how could she have a loved a man who fell so short in his responsibility to care and be compassionate for so long”.

Wow... absolutely wow 2Step. You have put into words perfectly how I have felt since my W left. And why I shouldn't be asking the question that I was the other night.

I hear so much talk on this forum that seems to discount the importance of why we came here in the first place, i.e., to save our M or R.

Not from me. I came here to save my M but I have found in the process how to save myself, either way for me it is a win win. What I want in my heart is to save my M and get back together with my W but I know after the pain has faded if I have failed I will arise a better man. So will you.

I know you are thinking with a much clearer mind today but I wanted to share my thoughts on your words yesterday. Your patience and consistency is something I have admired in you since I began to follow your thread. It’s funny I feel like I know you and I know your W I also understand your thought process, but I want to caution you heading into Thursday because negative thoughts would ruin all the progress you have made up to now.

I believe that you will make it and I am sure I will see you in the success stories of this website but in order to get there you must first take inventory in the changes you have made and make sure that they are REAL, not only for yourself but for the benefit of your M. As you pointed out, that is the end game of everyone here.

You are correct sir!! Sorry for having such a p!ss poor attitude the other night! I'm sure that it won't be the last time, but I recognize it for what it was at this point.

BITS!
Denver

[Denver_2010]

Previous to this, I ignored her because of my failing.
Afterwards, I ignored her because of hers.
In the middle I showed her that I had changed.
Make sense?

How did she know the difference? What if you had not had a 'middle' phase?

I don't think that I had a middle phase.