I haven't done everything wrong...

[islander]

Here is the link to my original thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2127521#Post2127521

[Denver_2010]

Very top left... "New Topic" is for new thread.

I would deal with this lunch like it was with someone who you are an acquaintance with and not M'd to. Talk about the weather, politics, sports. the crime blog... just do your best to stay away from R talk, act as if you are happy and just fine without her.

Unfortunately, you do have to be prepared that she will bring up R talk. I think what I'd do with this, is just tell her that you are not sure where you are with the M. That you haven't really thought about it. Other than that, you listen and validate her issues/concerns.

If she brings up filing for divorce or legal separation, you can consider using this line:

“W, I've told you before that I still love you and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I've not changed my mind on that. But I understand you are not happy, that you do not feel happy or complete inside.

You need to do what will make you happy. By my side, we live as partners, we share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team.

I won't stand in your way. But I also will not help you leave this marriage or this family. And I will never accept another person being a part of our life together.

I hope you find the happiness you are looking for. Go do what you need to do. You know where I will be.”

I used this on my W on December 22nd. She really didn't know how to reply to it and only brought up legal separation one other time since, on January 2nd. I basically told her the same thing.

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I also found another poster's success story with advice very useful in learning how to communicate with WAW. Here is that post (I've bolded the part especially applicable to your lunch with W):

"After a long series of fights and some significant disillusion on my wife’s part regarding our marriage, we separated Oct. 29th of 2005. Married for 5 years with one young daughter. Regrettably, I moved out and as far as my wife was concerned, our marriage was over. Like so many of you out there, I was devastated. Fortunately, after the first few weeks, I found this website and Michelle’s book. Without a doubt, the advice and experiences that I gleaned from both the book and this board saved my marriage and gave me some sanity during my separation. After 5 long months, my wife and I have reconciled and our marriage is stronger than ever. We still have some healing to do, but I am back home with my wife and daughter. I thought it would be fitting to share what I have learned during the process, and reiterate some key elements of Michelle’s program that I found critical.

Before doing so, I should point out that my situation may be different than some. For one, there was not another man in the picture and my wife remained celibate during our separation as did I. The breakdown of my marriage stemmed from her anger and hurt that resulted mostly from my behavior. Biggies included: 1) an addiction to online pornography, 2) working too much, 3) partying too much and 4) not meeting her emotional needs. So some of you may be in a slightly different situation, particularly if there is an EA or PA in the works. Either of these adds another layer of complexity to a marriage breakdown. Also, at times I thought for sure my marriage was over. I was on the proverbial rollercoaster, and heard those terrible words after everything seemed to be going ok: “I don’t want any contact from this point forward, you will hear from me in about a month to work out the details…my decision is final. I wish you luck…” blah, blah, blah…..A month and half later I moved back home. BUT, some of you will not, and I have been through it once already, and you have to remember that you will heal and there will be a future, and it might be a lot better than the past.

Regardless, below are the most important things I learned and applied from DBing:

1. Buy Divorce Busting and the books and read them five times, and them read five more times.

2. Give her space and don’t pressure: This - my friends - is numero uno. If you cannot do this, you WILL surely end your marriage or at minimum prolong emotional and physical distance between you and your spouse indefinitely. Don’t believe me? Then keep doing it and see what happens. I know it is hard, and yes, it was unbelievably frustrating for me. At first I did not succeed, and it really pissed her off. To you such behavior may seem as if you are showing your commitment and love, but to her, you are being selfish and disrespectful. My wife told me recently that one of the most important things I did during our separation was to back off and let her think. She needed to MISS ME. Last Christmas she went home to her parents (who by the way despise me and still do) and I drove across the country to see my family. I did not call or email for two weeks. Guess who started to call and email me saying she missed me within a week or so? SO, this means stop calling, stop emailing, stop text messaging, stop asking for dates/time together etc. etc. If you want her back, LEAVE HER ALONE. Pressure speaks volumes about desperation and weakness – something women find incredibly unattractive. Women want someone who is strong, silent and dependable. Begging, pleading, crying, manipulating and trying to convince her to change her mind will only make you repulsive and WILL push her out the door faster than anything else! You have to be strong and cool. This does not mean you should ignore her completely. But in general, let her contact you, and if she won’t, DON’T pick up the phone or email. Let her know occasionally that you are her friend and you are there for her or your kids (if you have any) if they/she need anything. And I mean, a one or two sentence email or voicemail, and don’t tell her you love her and miss her, and don’t use this as an excuse to get her on the phone and start blabbering about how much you love her, want a second chance, will change, want to make it work…blah blah blah, because all that she hears is exactly that - “blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine moan, moan, moan.” She hears a pathetic, frightened man (which we all are when we going through this) but don’t let her see it. Who wants to live with and depend upon someone like this? I wouldn’t. So, for God’s sake people, IF YOU WANT HER BACK LEAVE HER ALONE. She is driving this train, and you have to accept that. Patience is your indispensable ally. Cloying attempts at affection and desperation are your enemies. There is nothing you can say or do to change her mind. If she does change her mind, it will be on her terms and her schedule – period. No pressure also means NO ULTIMATIUMS such as “you have one month to make a decision, or I am going to file for divorce.” This is a very bad idea. You will likely get it. Keep your mouth shut and back off.

3. When you are together ALWAYS AGREE, keep your mouth shut and LISTEN intently to every word she says: When you do get chance to talk to her or spend time with her – and you will – ALWAYS try your hardest to be upbeat, positive, friendly, considerate and DON’T get angry or talk about your feelings and what YOU WANT. Stay positive and don’t bring up the relationship unless she does, and when she does, keep your trap shut and listen to everything she says. Want to stay out of trouble? Listen. Want to get back in the house? Listen. Want to have a long loving relationship? Listen. My God, listen till the blood drips from your ears; listen till you want to scream out a solution; listen until she has nothing left to say and when she’s done, shut up and listen some more. Women are the caregivers and if you want her to give, you’d better do some caring. Not only should you listen, but when you do speak, always AGREE. Validate what she says, and don’t argue. For example, “you were a complete jerk, you hurt me, you never spent time with our family, you’re selfish, you have two heads, the moon is made of chocolate etc etc…” I don’t care what she says, just say…”You’re right…I was a jerk, I am sorry and I screwed up…and your right the moon is made of chocolate and I have two heads. If you want me to leave, I understand, your right, maybe it would never work, but I do love you and I’ll always be here for you and the kids if you need anything.” It works people. When she starts talking about your failures and why the marriage was so horrible, much of which is probably true, she is waiting for you to react in anger, hurt, frustration, and let you say horrible things to her, blame her for everything and storm out of the house because this is the type of behavior that validates her thoughts, expectations and rationalizations for walking away. Such behavior will make her feel better. When you DON’T act like this, it will throw her for a loop and she will be completely bewildered. Try it. But you have to be consistent. As aside, this doesn’t mean you should be a doormat. This simply means listening and validating her feelings, thoughts and emotions regarding you, her and the marriage. It does not mean that you have to accept ridiculous requests regarding things such as financial or property issues. If these come up, respectfully and calmly disagree. In fact, you can use them to buy time. For example, you might say: “that is not acceptable to me at this point, and it is something we can negotiate or work out in a few weeks, but I am sure we can find an amiable middle ground. I don’t want you and the kids to be a bad position. Remember I am your best friend regardless of what happens.”

4. Change (do the 180s) and don’t tell her you have or are changing: Now this one is actually as important as the first one because if don’t make some changes, then you will be back in the same boat soon enough. Also, the changes will make you happier. In my case, I had to do some serious soul searching and self analyzing that included counseling and joining a support group for sexual addiction (i.e., online pornography). Both have helped me immensely. Now…you cannot tell your wife that you are or have changed. Words don’t mean sh** especially to our estranged spouses. Actions speak louder than words, and make sure the changes and self realizations are genuine. She will be watching even if you don’t realize it; and your behavior will be scrutinized very closely. She is examining everything under a microscope under high magnification, and please don’t try and B.S. or manipulate her. Women hate it when they perceive that they are being manipulated in a relationship. She will see right through it like panes of glass…trust me on this one. In some cases, they will get really pissed when you start making changes and start cater wallowing about why you didn’t do these things before you separated and cause everyone so much pain…etc. etc. “why did it take this for you to realize you needed some help.” Let them say it….respond with something like “men are insulated and sometimes it takes something really devastating before we realize our shortcomings” and this is true of course.

5. “Get a life” (GAL) or at least act like you are getting a life and doing “just fine:” Go to the gym, go hiking, take trips, go for a walk, take classes. You get the idea. They are not going to want to come back to you until they can see that you are strong enough to survive without them, and anyway, doing things might make you feel better. In my case, only the trips really helped and in general I felt pretty crappy regardless of what I was doing. BUT, don’t let them know this. Don’t show it. Fake it if you have to. If you are doing fun and interesting things, they will wonder about it, and probably wish they were doing them with you. However, as is the case with your 180s, it may piss them off. I remember my wife saying something like “oh, now you are having fun and doing all these wonderful and positive things that you would never do with me...guess my love wasn’t enough.” Let them say it, shut up and keep doing what you are doing because it is getting their attention. If anything, say something like “you would love for them to join you but are not going to push because you are respecting their need for space and time.” What about “going dark?” You have to be careful with this one because it can backfire depending upon your situation. In mine, it was delicate because one of her complaints was that I was too distant in our marriage. So I had to be careful here, but it does help somewhat. However, when she called or emailed during dark periods, I was always there to answer the phone or respond to the email ASAP.

Hope this helps and good luck to you all. I know it [censored], but hang in there. Things will get better regardless of what happens with your current situation. The most important thing I learned was to back off, give her space, detach whatever you want to call it without appear to abandon her or my child. This is the hardest thing to do, but it is absolutely necessary if you want success."

BITS
Denver

[islander]

W sent a text and said she had to come by the house at 1 and wanted to know of I would be home. I waited an hour and told her yes, but I would be sleeping (I work midnights right now).

This is stressing me and won't let me go back to sleep. I just keep thinking that I don't have anything to say to her bc she is living with OM. She has no idea the pain she has caused me bc nobody has ever treated her like that, and I can't tell her how it is tearing me up.

[Denver_2010]

That's right, you can't. Not right now. Go back to sleep man.

I know all of this hurts like hell. Hang in there. You're doing just fine.

BITS
Denver

P.S. Make sure to read that long post I put on your thread last night. It helped me immensely when I first came here.

[Grocerykartman]

Yes sir, go back to sleep. Don't know your time zone but, in fact, if you're reading this anytime within 2 hours of either side of 1, then quit reading it and go back to sleep.

[islander]

W came over about 2, stayed for 15 min and just left. She got a couple of documents she needed. We made small talk about fish tank, I asked her to bring back a few things she took that I needed, no R talk at all. She commented she just bought new pans for her apt. She then reaffirmed our lunch for wednesday and left. No PC at all.

If my goal was to act as if I was happy, I failed. I was not moping around, but I was definitely not enthusiastic. W also did not act as if she had the perfect life now either. Maybe just bc we were in the same room. Idk.

She commented on how good the fish tank was looking, and I told her that I have been enjoying taking care of it. I then casually told her that I planned on keeping it (W likes and wanted to take it originally, but I was the one maintaining it. It was a hobby we were supposed to do together, but by default
it became my job).

As soon as she left I felt the tears coming on, but I held them off. My only success today was not talking about the R or OM. I wanted to tell her I loved and missed her so bad. She said she would call me later. If she does, I don't think I will answer.

[Grocerykartman]

Well done my friend.

[islander]

Thanks, but for some reason I don't think I did that great of a job. I wish I could have been more upbeat, but I did not have it in me.

She did not ask what I was doing this weekend or why I was ignoring her. I was surprised by that. She did ask me if I was working tonight, bc it is normally my day off. I should have told her no, but for some reason I would have felt really bad for lying to her. She will see all the extra money on the direct deposit this week and will no I have been working anyway.

[Grocerykartman]

Nah, you don't want to flat out lie to her. The reason why you'd feel bad is simple, it's wrong to lie. And once she knows you are she'll see through you. Don't feel ashamed youre working, you have do what you HAVE to do. You have to own your job and your responsibilities.

It's ok that you couldn't feign being upbeat. The upbeat part will come when you have found other ways to GAL....that will be the source of your positive attitude. Right now youre probably not there yet because you're still in the stage where just about every thought is on her and how miserable you feel. Its just going to take time...keep on doing what you're doing.

I repeat, well done.

[Denver_2010]

Nice job Islander. Don't feel badly about not being able to act upbeat and happy. You're not right now. It will get better. But you do need to keep trying to 'fake it til you make it'... at least when you are around W. Again, I'm not telling you that you should be upset about this afternoon, I'm just reminding you. The sooner that you can do this, the better. W needs to start believing that you are JUST FINE without her.

She probably didn't ask you why you have been ignoring her bc she assumes that it is because you are mad. You want her to believe that it is bc you are so busy enjoying your life that you just don't have time to waste on her.

I know that this is hard to fake. You can do it though. And with time and a little GALing, you won't be faking it anymore.

Trust me, I still have a hard time. Yesterday, watching the SB with my W and her family, I came across as happier than I've ever been. My BIL even sent me an email telling me that he and SIL talked after I left about how happy I seemed.

Today though, I am in the dumps again. Feeling depressed and emotionally exhausted. This is hard stuff and it is WORK. Practice it just like you would for anything else that you want to be good at.

And eventually, we really will be happy again.

BITS
Denver