Someone suggest H is having a MLC....I don't know?

[Queen_of_Swords]

Positive things:
He signed the card with his own name and my children's signatures,and bought flowers with them for my birthday the Sunday before.
He also took a look at my printer which isn't working at the moment with a cheerful attitdue. I need a new parallel printer Linksys thing.
(This was 5 days after he dropped the email bomb.)
I had a brief chat when he called to say goodnight to the kids. I was chirpy and upbeat and asked about the weather and nicely about his work trip and asked him how things were going and what was new and exciting on that front. That went well ( I thought) I was enthused about the new the new things he was talking about. He seemed to appreciate my interest.
He texted me Friday morning to wish me a happy belated birthday.
He called last night to say goodnight to the kids, he asked (iirc) how my day went, I told him about our youngest's dental adventure of the day.
Saturday, he called, I kept it very brief and matter of fact. "Hello? Oh how are you, right you called to say goodnight. Goodnight, here is _________ bye."

I'm trying not to read too much into this beyond basic courtesy and general interest. I am of the mindset right now, that I have to take him at his word and he means what he says. He wants a divorce. Breaks my heart, but I can't do anything about it.

[cat04]

I gave and I gave, I don't think there is much of me left to give, and what was given was discarded like so much trash, and I'm no Jesus Christ.

There is a thing called a losing battle. Unfortunately I'm not the only one that will not come away from this battle, win or lose, undamaged. Our children will too. When they reach adulthood they have the example of their Dad bailing. I cannot teach them how to be husbands or fathers.

Scylla, you are right, you can’t teach your children how to be husbands and fathers. However, you can teach them what it looks like to have love, respect, appreciation and acceptance of another human being. As well as of yourself.

How you handle this, will teach them how to handle this. IF you show them that you are damaged by this and that they SHOULD be damaged by this, then they will be.

IF you show them different, strength, perseverance, healing, then they will learn that there is nothing in this world that we can’t overcome. There may come a point where you show them that sometimes, no matter how hard we try, things do not go the way we want them to, and if you handle that well, they will as well.

The book that you read about the effects of divorce, I read it too. It was very sad and I saw myself in parts of it (I am from a divorced family as well). It was one view. One study, and the common thread that I found in it, was the way that the parents handled things and their relationships or lack of with their children throughout the process and their lives. It doesn't have to be that way.

I am not saying this has not caused my S pain, however, I do not believe for one moment that this is going to scar him forever. It may, hopefully, give him a strength of character that his father did not seem to have. Because I have shown him that. He saw me at my lowest. He saw the devastation that I experienced (he is a teen and very observant). He has also seen how I continue to treat his father with compassion and kindness and caring. He has watched me rebuild myself and that I am so much happier and healthier and relaxed than I was when he was growing up.

As far as how much you gave, and I am not trying to pick on you, we all gave. You are not alone there.

However, did we give in the right way?

I didn’t.

I tried, I did the best with what I knew at the time, but there was so much that I could have done differently as a W. There is so much I could have done differently as a human. I was dealing with my own uneasiness in my own skin, my skewed ideas from my own upbringing as to what a M and family should be, how people should act, and I know that I could have done better.

After the bomb, I fell apart. I felt as you do. As I saw my role in the marital problems, I knew that I had some things to fix. And I gave more. I gave more of myself to me. H noticed the changes. While it didn’t make much of a difference in his crisis (it won’t), it did make a difference in our R. Because I give differently. Most days, we can get along pretty well now.

In my new R, I think I do pretty well most days. I give all of me, there is no hiding. It wasn't even something that I was really aware of because I had been being myself for so long by the time we met. I listen, try to make changes if they are necessary, and I also talk, often very clearly and other times, not so much, but things get worked through eventually. And if he needs to make changes, he does. Compromises. Agreeing to disagree sometimes (not often, but sometimes.) Patience, as much as we can and then more.

No one is asking you to change your core, but you really have to know WHO is at your core before you can say you aren’t going to change it. I thought I knew who was at my core. Boy was I wrong. The person I discovered, buried under a lifetime of stuff, is much more open and fun and willing than I ever would have imagined. And she is simple. And she is very happy with that.

As far as having needs met by others, is that what is important or would you prefer to wait and have those needs met by your H down the road?

I know that he says it is not going to happen, and it may not, but you really don’t know what is to come.

You have to be able to take care of those needs, all of them, even sexual needs, alone before you can adequately have them met by ANYONE else. Women seem to have a harder time with the physical part of it than men. Any book about sexual dysfunction or sexual health will tell you that though. The purely physical part of it, I understand doesn’t necessarily meet the emotional fulfillment that comes with making love with someone, however, it is still a part of loving oneself.

When we can truly love ourselves in all ways, it makes giving of oneself, really easy and natural, and it makes what we get from someone else, that much better. And it doesn’t feel like external validation. It feels like love.

[Jimbo]

I'm trying not to read too much into this beyond basic courtesy and general interest. I am of the mindset right now, that I have to take him at his word and he means what he says. He wants a divorce. Breaks my heart, but I can't do anything about it.

This is good.

....and not so good.

It's good that you are "trying not to read too much into this". This is what we mean when we're talking about detachment here, and it's key. Don't let what H says or does make you go into "expectation mode", or worse,"automatic overdrive", where you have a knee-jerk reaction to him. We all have buttons that kick off these reactions and our spouses know what they are. They will, in all likelihood, use them (or try to, depending on how far you progress) to get what they want down the road. Identifying the buttons, and really digging down deep and addressing WHY they exist so that you can change them (like Brooklyn and Cat referred to) is a big part of this.

Now for the not-so-good bit.

The bit about taking him at his word and his meaning what he says...It's okay to validate his feelings, but understand that those very same feelings are extremely ephemeral. I can not stress to you how important this concept is, and you will probably not believe that it's even POSSIBLE until you experience this phenomena for yourself on a consistent scale. They can be so changeable at times that it makes your head spin! As an example, on one occasion I was talking with my XW and saw her attitudes change within MOMENTS of each other. The best way I've heard it described is that it's like the emotions of a little baby. One moment they are pleased as punch, the next crying their eyes out, and the next into yet another different state. It's really bizarre when you are able to become so detached that you can observe for yourself how they just bounce around from one state to another without your getting swept away by your own emotional response.

I gave and I gave, I don't think there is much of me left to give, and what was given was discarded like so much trash, and I'm no Jesus Christ.

You give and give....and they take and take. This is a normal part of the process, and to be expected. (It's also an interesting barometer for us, too....Are we giving only for the expected "kickback" of good feelings and ego stroking (like a bribe), or are we giving out of true love...with no strings attached?) They keep taking because they have nothing to be able to give right now. They discount and discard what is given to them because they have no capacity for appreciating what is given, since none of it makes them "happy".....nothing does.

Always remember the MLCer's motto, SC: "This is all about ME".

[Queen_of_Swords]

I gave and I gave, I don't think there is much of me left to give, and what was given was discarded like so much trash, and I'm no Jesus Christ.

There is a thing called a losing battle. Unfortunately I'm not the only one that will not come away from this battle, win or lose, undamaged. Our children will too. When they reach adulthood they have the example of their Dad bailing. I cannot teach them how to be husbands or fathers.

Scylla, you are right, you can’t teach your children how to be husbands and fathers. However, you can teach them what it looks like to have love, respect, appreciation and acceptance of another human being. As well as of yourself.

How you handle this, will teach them how to handle this. IF you show them that you are damaged by this and that they SHOULD be damaged by this, then they will be.

IF you show them different, strength, perseverance, healing, then they will learn that there is nothing in this world that we can’t overcome. There may come a point where you show them that sometimes, no matter how hard we try, things do not go the way we want them to, and if you handle that well, they will as well.

Well my children will be enroled shortly in the same program as I am doing. Fortunately because they are young and their brains so plastic, this will be a shorter journey to age appropriate emotional maturity than mine is. My dysfunctional programming and garbage mind viruses will be addressed and they will not live them or pass them on to their children. That stops with me.

As far as teaching them, they've seen me change even more than H. has. They live with me, they live the changes.
I work with them as much as I am working with me. If one of us has a problem our family of now 3 has problem. I do for them and teach them how to do what I do for myself,

As for the H...same pattern. Errands, long drives, movies, eating out, ocmputer games, TV. That's generally his activity with the kids. From my POV he wants to be their buddy, not their father. Not that I blame him, he didn't have a real fatherly template to follow. The dysfunction on both his maternal/paternal lines runs very deep with much abuse and abandonment. Regardless, his relationship with the kids is his business. I'm not happy about it, he's cheating them and himself, but it IS his responsibility.

The book that you read about the effects of divorce, I read it too. It was very sad and I saw myself in parts of it (I am from a divorced family as well). It was one view. One study, and the common thread that I found in it, was the way that the parents handled things and their relationships or lack of with their children throughout the process and their lives. It doesn't have to be that way.

I am not saying this has not caused my S pain, however, I do not believe for one moment that this is going to scar him forever. It may, hopefully, give him a strength of character that his father did not seem to have. Because I have shown him that. He saw me at my lowest. He saw the devastation that I experienced (he is a teen and very observant). He has also seen how I continue to treat his father with compassion and kindness and caring. He has watched me rebuild myself and that I am so much happier and healthier and relaxed than I was when he was growing up.

As far as how much you gave, and I am not trying to pick on you, we all gave. You are not alone there.

However, did we give in the right way?

I didn’t.

I tried, I did the best with what I knew at the time, but there was so much that I could have done differently as a W. There is so much I could have done differently as a human. I was dealing with my own uneasiness in my own skin, my skewed ideas from my own upbringing as to what a M and family should be, how people should act, and I know that I could have done better.

After the bomb, I fell apart. I felt as you do. As I saw my role in the marital problems, I knew that I had some things to fix. And I gave more. I gave more of myself to me. H noticed the changes. While it didn’t make much of a difference in his crisis (it won’t), it did make a difference in our R. Because I give differently. Most days, we can get along pretty well now.

In my new R, I think I do pretty well most days. I give all of me, there is no hiding. It wasn't even something that I was really aware of because I had been being myself for so long by the time we met. I listen, try to make changes if they are necessary, and I also talk, often very clearly and other times, not so much, but things get worked through eventually. And if he needs to make changes, he does. Compromises. Agreeing to disagree sometimes (not often, but sometimes.) Patience, as much as we can and then more.

No one is asking you to change your core, but you really have to know WHO is at your core before you can say you aren’t going to change it. I thought I knew who was at my core. Boy was I wrong. The person I discovered, buried under a lifetime of stuff, is much more open and fun and willing than I ever would have imagined. And she is simple. And she is very happy with that.

I did the same. No one teaches us to be married and all those self help books are really helpful before and NOT after the crisis. Had I even known about the 5 Love Languages I could have done so much better. I gave him what I had been shown was love, but not always what he really needed or wanted. He spoke a different dialect and I had no template or program for it, and because of his stuff he couldn't/can't express his needs clearly or directly to me either.

As far as having needs met by others, is that what is important or would you prefer to wait and have those needs met by your H down the road?
I know that he says it is not going to happen, and it may not, but you really don’t know what is to come.

Of course I would prefer and love to have them met by him.
However, as I said in another post, he said to me in no uncertain terms he doesn't find me sexually attractive. Heck he can't look at me without that flat dead look in his eye or a certain level of distaste. That I mentioned my needs is what precipated the bomb being dropped as well. I mentioned (with my coach's approval) that there were things partners were entitled to in a marriage. Google Marriage Bill of Rights if you want to know. And I indicated that I would love for him to step up to the plate, but if he wasn't willing, I would seek to meet those needs elsewhere. If he doesn't want me, respect me, care about me, communicate with me, be honest with me....well, what's a gal to do?

You have to be able to take care of those needs, all of them, even sexual needs, alone before you can adequately have them met by ANYONE else. Women seem to have a harder time with the physical part of it than men. Any book about sexual dysfunction or sexual health will tell you that though. The purely physical part of it, I understand doesn’t necessarily meet the emotional fulfillment that comes with making love with someone, however, it is still a part of loving oneself.

Already have, for much too long in my estimation. It's like brushing your teeth, or bathing. Basic self -maintenence.

When we can truly love ourselves in all ways, it makes giving of oneself, really easy and natural, and it makes what we get from someone else, that much better. And it doesn’t feel like external validation. It feels like love.

I could never really "hear" much validation, when people would give it, I couldn't take it in or accept it.
I heard the criticismsand nit picking all too well. I won't go into to much personal detail here, but compliments, praise, kindness gave ( and at this time still gives) me great emotional pain ( although it is lessening).

The very thing most human beings crave and need, hurts me, at least until I can process it further and defuse it.

[Queen_of_Swords]

I'm trying not to read too much into this beyond basic courtesy and general interest. I am of the mindset right now, that I have to take him at his word and he means what he says. He wants a divorce. Breaks my heart, but I can't do anything about it.

This is good.

....and not so good.

It's good that you are "trying not to read too much into this". This is what we mean when we're talking about detachment here, and it's key. Don't let what H says or does make you go into "expectation mode", or worse,"automatic overdrive", where you have a knee-jerk reaction to him. We all have buttons that kick off these reactions and our spouses know what they are. They will, in all likelihood, use them (or try to, depending on how far you progress) to get what they want down the road. Identifying the buttons, and really digging down deep and addressing WHY they exist so that you can change them (like Brooklyn and Cat referred to) is a big part of this.

Now for the not-so-good bit.

The bit about taking him at his word and his meaning what he says...It's okay to validate his feelings, but understand that those very same feelings are extremely ephemeral. I can not stress to you how important this concept is, and you will probably not believe that it's even POSSIBLE until you experience this phenomena for yourself on a consistent scale. They can be so changeable at times that it makes your head spin! As an example, on one occasion I was talking with my XW and saw her attitudes change within MOMENTS of each other. The best way I've heard it described is that it's like the emotions of a little baby. One moment they are pleased as punch, the next crying their eyes out, and the next into yet another different state. It's really bizarre when you are able to become so detached that you can observe for yourself how they just bounce around from one state to another without your getting swept away by your own emotional response.

I gave and I gave, I don't think there is much of me left to give, and what was given was discarded like so much trash, and I'm no Jesus Christ.

You give and give....and they take and take. This is a normal part of the process, and to be expected. (It's also an interesting barometer for us, too....Are we giving only for the expected "kickback" of good feelings and ego stroking (like a bribe), or are we giving out of true love...with no strings attached?) They keep taking because they have nothing to be able to give right now. They discount and discard what is given to them because they have no capacity for appreciating what is given, since none of it makes them "happy".....nothing does.

Always remember the MLCer's motto, SC: "This is all about ME".

I understand what you're saying Jimbo about their emotions being epheremal and the phase/age switching. See it all the time lately and not just in the H, but family members and strangers too ( road rage anyone?)
Thanks for the reminder though.
I tend to take his words as gospel now because it's been so long since he left. He told me Jan 5, 2009 he wasn't coming back...back then I thought he meant temporarily, but the longer it goes on the more I believe he meant it as a permanent affair.

Thanks too for the last bit. You're right, they can't give being so wrapped up in themselves. They don't have the capacity for appreciation or even counting their blessings. It's all the same, until it's not, then it's more rain on their parade.

I needed this kick, thank you.

[Mach1]

Scylla....

So where are you at with this right now ?

I'm not sure what you are looking for right now....

I see you starting to get defensive, and scoffing at DB ( since what your DB coach told you did not meet your desired immediate goal )

I'm not sure you are fully understanding what MLC is, or how long it can take for him to move through this...

I'm not here to convince you to stick with DBing..

It's not my place to try and convince you to stay married...

What I AM here for...Is to try and help you understand that where you are right now....is not permanent by any means.

To try and help you understand that MLC does things to the human mind that are un-explainable to the sound of mind...

To try and help you understand, that what your husband spews at you, are his truths right now...not yours.

That your truths are what are inside of you....

That 27 years of marriage is worth taking your time and seeing what the future holds, and is not something to be taken as lightly as "just finding someone else "

That sometimes....just being still and watching can be just as effective in your own healing, than anything else.

That whatever you decide to do.....comes from a place of love and understanding instead of anger toward your husband.


I see a lot of good people posting to you, and you rebuking a lot of what they are saying to you....

MLC takes some pretty thick skin to weather.....and if they can get under you, then your husband is gonna do that tenfold...

Nobody here is against you.....please understand that.

I want you to understand that everyone here, has felt the way you are feeling...

Everyone here has heard the things that you have been accused of by your husband. And was equally as angry at hearing them.

And that it is okay to feel those things...it is part of the path of the LBS.....

What could ( or should ) happen, is that you take those things, and you look at them individually, and find how they fit you, at your core.

You look inside and kill the things that don't fit your core person.

You look at them to find out if they are true ? OR are they things that are skewed , so that he can rationalize his actions ?

These are decisions that YOU have to make......


So you have a self admitted five year plan....

What happens in those five years, can change, and sometimes daily..

MLC is one day at a time.....sometimes one hour at a time....sometimes one minute at a time....

In time, if you decide to do the work....you will be thankful for this time in your life.

The time to reflect on who you really want to be in your life...

The time find who you are as an individual instead of being a wife, or a Mother...or anything other than just you.

This will become a gift to you....

And the gift you can give in return....is the same...

[Drew]

Mach1,

You look at them to find out if they are true ? OR are they things that are skewed , so that he can rationalize his actions ?

Amen, brother.

[Queen_of_Swords]

So where are you at with this right now ?

Well Mach1, it varies from hour to hour, day to day.
But the longer I am alone dealing with the fallout, living along, making a life for myself without H, the less I can care, amd the more I lean to pessimism.

Don't get me wrong I still feel strong instances of great affection and love feelings for H, but they are becoming more and more rare. I'm shutting off and finding myself going into analytical/cerebral mode.

In that 6 hour seminar I took, they made the example of this you have:

Your marital relationship
Your business relationship
Your parenting relationship

Your business/working relationship remains to some degree
Your parenting relationship in collaborative raising of your kids stays intact in most instances.
Your marital relationship is over.

I see you starting to get defensive, and scoffing at DB ( since what your DB coach told you did not meet your desired immediate goal )

That's your interpretation of what I wrote. It's merely a statement of fact. 93% of communication is non-verbal.

There is no blame attached. I chose to follow the advice, I had hoped for a different outcome, but I knew this was a possibility. Understand Mach1, the H has done almost nothing to move ahead and has said he's not returning. He's pretty much standing pat and waiting for me to initiate action.

He sent me a separation agreement he got off a government site somewhere,filled in his name on the form and wrote: "Fill in what you want." I didn't do a thing with it.

I'm not sure you are fully understanding what MLC is, or how long it can take for him to move through this...

Perhaps I'm not. I sure get it's more serious than a stupid joke, and I'm understanding it's about their internal process and there isn't an F*&%ing thing that I can do to help him move through it, find his own centre , help him see reason, or that we have anything to salvage.

That 27 years of marriage is worth taking your time and seeing what the future holds, and is not something to be taken as lightly as "just finding someone else "

The challenge I have with this Mach1 is: a) I'm not getting any younger. I just had my 49th b'day. Niether are my kids, pretty darn soon I'll be handling two teenagers all by myself.
b) I want a partner, lover, friend and husband. He chooses not to be one.
c)LOL, you think it's easy to find someone else that you like and likes you back, that's willing to do the work of relationship? I don't take it lightly by half.

That sometimes....just being still and watching can be just as effective in your own healing, than anything else.

That whatever you decide to do.....comes from a place of love and understanding instead of anger toward your husband.

I have very little anger left I have occassional instances where I think I'm being mistreated/disrespected, but I'm coming to realise that that is more about my expectations. However, I won't deny I'm having a hard time differentiating between expectation and reasonable boundaries where I can lay down a boundary so I'm NOT mistreated.

What I have left is a lot of hurt, sadness,loss and regret.

I see a lot of good people posting to you, and you rebuking a lot of what they are saying to you....

MLC takes some pretty thick skin to weather.....and if they can get under you, then your husband is gonna do that tenfold...

Nobody here is against you.....please understand that.

I want you to understand that everyone here, has felt the way you are feeling...

Everyone here has heard the things that you have been accused of by your husband. And was equally as angry at hearing them.

And that it is okay to feel those things...it is part of the path of the LBS.....

What could ( or should ) happen, is that you take those things, and you look at them individually, and find how they fit you, at your core.

You look inside and kill the things that don't fit your core person.

You look at them to find out if they are true ? OR are they things that are skewed , so that he can rationalize his actions ?

These are decisions that YOU have to make......

Mach1, I'm sorry you see it as rebuke, it's certainly not intended that way. I'm doing my level best to answer questions here and in my own mind and heart honestly and completely.
I have done a lot of deconstruction of what's he's said to me and tried, really tried to see his POV. I think I've stated that if I saw me the way he sees me, I'd not want to stay married to me either. The picture is very distorted though and I think you know that, given your understanding of MLC which is better than my own right now.

So you have a self admitted five year plan....

What happens in those five years, can change, and sometimes daily..

MLC is one day at a time.....sometimes one hour at a time....sometimes one minute at a time....

In time, if you decide to do the work....you will be thankful for this time in your life.

The time to reflect on who you really want to be in your life...

The time find who you are as an individual instead of being a wife, or a Mother...or anything other than just you.

This will become a gift to you....

And the gift you can give in return....is the same...

Mach1, that five year plan is the WORK. It is the digging deep, it is the finding of my core personality, it is the purging of the bad crap; the vicious memes, and poisonous life commandments I've been given that have dictated how I should be behave, what I MUST do to get approval and acceptance, and how I unthinkingly react to old triggers. It is rewiring my brain and getting rid of trauma programming from abuse.
It takes three years to rewire a neural network. It takes fuve years for the new neurons to have myelin sheathing thick enough to make it "stick", and the old neurons to die, shrink and be absorbed for the new network to take it's place.

[dl443322]

SC, I am not real sure why you came to the MLC forum.

You seem to have made your decision regarding your sitch.

You have had some very wise, long term posters write to you. And I'm not real sure you have really heard what they had to say.

Here's the thing. I think it's great that you are taking action to try to heal yourself. I know how important that is. I, too, had a very difficult time being kind to myself and believing in myself. I heard my mother's voice always telling me I'm not good enough.

So,when h told me he didnt want to be married anymore, well, all I heard was, I do not want you, you are unworthy.

And I am sure that whatever program it is that you are on will be an enormous help. But, MLC is a horse of a color you have not ever seen before.

So, I think that the people here are just trying to help you understand what it is you are dealing with.

I hear what your h is telling you. And I am here to tell you I have heard the same words. So have countless others. It is part of their script. It is part of their crisis.

My h told me 3 years ago that he was not happy, that I was not good enough, that he has been unhappy for years, that he no longer finds me attractive, that I am not worth it, etc. Sound familiar?

He has in the last year told me many times, I am the best person he knows, that he is still very unhappy, that he wasnt worthy of me.

Now, I am much further along on this path and I know that those feelings can all change tomorrow. It doesnt really matter. I know the truth now.

My point being, only you can decide if you dont want to do this anymore. And that's ok.

But you came here for some help and we are trying to help you.

Your timeline is short for this, believe it or not.

Now, you can certainly go and find someone else. It's your life.

We were just trying to share, as people who have been walking this path a long time, what we know to be true.

And that is, that MLC affects people's abilities to be rational. It changes them in ways you never thought possible.

Your h very well may be done. Or he may not.

And that is not what matters. What matters is that you feel comfortable with whatever decision you make.

[cat04]

But the longer I am alone dealing with the fallout, living along, making a life for myself without H, the less I can care, amd the more I lean to pessimism.
Don't get me wrong I still feel strong instances of great affection and love feelings for H, but they are becoming more and more rare. I'm shutting off and finding myself going into analytical/cerebral mode.

Scylla, there isn’t a person here who hasn’t been alone dealing with the fallout.

There isn’t a person here who didn’t want to quit from time to time.

There isn’t a person here who can’t empathize with you. To a degree…

In that 6 hour seminar I took, they made the example of this you have:
Your marital relationship
Your business relationship
Your parenting relationship
Your business/working relationship remains to some degree
Your parenting relationship in collaborative raising of your kids stays intact in most instances.
Your marital relationship is over.

I am willing to bet this was a seminar about surviving divorce.

It is actually a great way to look at it. However, was there anything in there about building a new marital relationship down the road?

What is your goal? Restoring your M or surviving D?

I see you starting to get defensive, and scoffing at DB ( since what your DB coach told you did not meet your desired immediate goal )

That's your interpretation of what I wrote. It's merely a statement of fact. 93% of communication is non-verbal.
There is no blame attached. I chose to follow the advice, I had hoped for a different outcome, but I knew this was a possibility.

Were you really prepared for this to be the outcome?

It doesn't sound like it to me, and that is why it is unadvisable to ask for things related to a R, with a MLCer, unless you are really ready for the outcome either way.

He sent me a separation agreement he got off a government site somewhere,filled in his name on the form and wrote: "Fill in what you want." I didn't do a thing with it.

I wouldn't either. Unless you want a D. Let him do the work if that is what he needs to do.

Some MLCer’s NEED to get divorced. It is part of their process. They do things that they think will make them happy, like leaving, and then they still aren’t happy. They believe that the D will be what finally brings them the happiness that they are so searching for. IF after that, they are still not happy, at least it can hopefully no longer be your (the LBS) fault.

Mach1, I'm sorry you see it as rebuke, it's certainly not intended that way. I'm doing my level best to answer questions here and in my own mind and heart honestly and completely.
I have done a lot of deconstruction of what's he's said to me and tried, really tried to see his POV. I think I've stated that if I saw me the way he sees me, I'd not want to stay married to me either. The picture is very distorted though and I think you know that, given your understanding of MLC which is better than my own right now.

Yes, you have stated that if you saw yourself as he did, you wouldn’t want to stay married to you either.

And I asked you how you have changed, what have you done or are doing to become someone he and you would want to be married to?

Which you haven’t really answered except to say that you have started this program.

And from your perspective, his perspective is very distorted. Which it may or may not be. I don’t know you so I don’t know. However, if it is MLC, there is a lot of distortion surrounding a small amount of truth.

I see lots of explanation and defense of yourself. A lot of you have already or are doing what people are talking about. A lot of blaming you H for not appreciating everything that you did during your M. You are “I know, I knowing” your way through all of this. Go read PEI’s thread if you want to see another who did that. Boy she was stubborn and cerebral…

When you “I know” your way through this process, you are paying lipservice to it.

What are you so afraid to look at?

Mach1, that five year plan is the WORK. It is the digging deep, it is the finding of my core personality, it is the purging of the bad crap; the vicious memes, and poisonous life commandments I've been given that have dictated how I should be behave, what I MUST do to get approval and acceptance, and how I unthinkingly react to old triggers. It is rewiring my brain and getting rid of trauma programming from abuse.
It takes three years to rewire a neural network. It takes fuve years for the new neurons to have myelin sheathing thick enough to make it "stick", and the old neurons to die, shrink and be absorbed for the new network to take it's place.

Ok so you have given yourself five years to get your crap together, but you won’t give your H even two.

At this point, you need this time as much as he does.

Your response to Mach1 was filled with condesenscion. It was filled with argument. Maybe that is not how you intended it, but it is how it came across. Verbal communication is only 7 percent of communication patterns, however, it is 100 percent of the communication we have here.

Read your posts. Read the responses to your posts. As an outsider.

How do you think you come across?