Is the tide turning???????

[goodattitudegirl]

Hi Antonia!

Thanks for visiting. TT is table tennis (sorry about that!). XH and I have been playing TT 2-4 times a month since last June. We've now gone out to eat after playing twice since New Years.

XH was very irritable last night. Not irritable with me at all, but his irritability was pretty obvious in many ways. Every time we switched table sides in play (with each new game) he wanted to move the table into another position so that he had enough room to move around to return the ball. It was kind of comical......He is still marinating. It must be an awful feeling to be going through this. He doesn't look happy.

Before we started playing he was sitting in his car for about 5 minutes. I thought maybe he was talking to GF#2 but when XH came into the community center he made a point of telling me that he had been coaching one of his employees through a procedure........so he felt the need to reassure me that he wasn't talking to GF#2.

GAG

[MHL]

Then as we were going to our cars I was thinking that I should suggest to XH that we go for a drink and talk about his mother's health, but before I could say anything, XH said (as he was getting into his car) "So where is this place you're going to take me?" ........so XH DID remember that I had suggested that we go to this new restaurant afterward. We ended up eating and drinking for almost 2 hours.

SCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VERY NICE GAG!!!!!

That deserves its very own post.....more in a minute

[Lorie1964]

GAG!!! I am so happy about your evening. I so enjoy reading how you relate to your X! God is watching over you! Stay true to yourself. XH is poking out of the tunnel!

[courageous wife]

Love it!!!

[MHL]

GAG,

I just love these debrief's.....come into work, dispense with the morning's tasks and get my coffee and settle in for an update. This is great stuff!!!

so XH DID remember that I had suggested that we go to this new restaurant afterward.

Then

XH said "We play almost every week now. Are you saying you'd like to play on a weekly basis?" I said "Sure". XH said "We can play every Wednesday then"

and Then

Then XH said I'll have to show you my iPad next time...........then I realized that XH had brought his iPad into the restaurant and it was sitting on the table the entire time.........so another example of XH hearing what I said, not acknowledging it, but acting on it..

and then

XH reached out to hug me

These are all very good signs that he is "thinking" about you when he is away from you. He is also thinking about you in his future plans, you are part of his life now.

He even has made it public in that his partner knows you guys doing this together!!!!

This is all very good.

Wondering if that same M.O. will work with flirting as Missher has suggested.

ahhhhhh.......yeah!!!!

Ideas for next time....sit next to him while he shows you his ipad and do alot of unecessary touching.

When he hugs you again.....tell him that "that feels nice, I like it when you hug me"

I think you really need to be forward with him at this point, he is showing interest, make sure to match his interest level.

Doesnt he remember that he admitted at one point that he hadn't told me he was so unhappy he was thinking about leaving?...........and doesn't he remember that he wouldn't go to M counseling with me?????????? As we were locking eyes, I almost thought that for a nanosecond XH might have heard what he said but I'm not sure.

This is the only area that I will offer some advice or criticism. There is a lot of "expectations" up there in those statements.....yes they are evidence of his MLC for sure.....

However....

He may never realize what he is saying and how it correlates with what he did or is doing. Any "expectation" that you may have that this will happen one day will only disappoint you.

This is where your "work" lies GAG......letting go of those expectations.....they will ultimately thwart your efforts.

You have to ask yourself......can you live with Mr. GAG in a reconciled R or M if he never fully acknowledges how insane he was acting or how much pain he caused???

Some MLCer's don't remember....literally. I can remember my STBXW telling me jokes about Tiger Woods' affairs last year and laughing about it........I had to bite my tongue too......I wanted to say.... "REALLY, did you just say that to me?????"

There will be a time and place for these discussions but right now you are just establishing trust and a "safe" place for him to share his feelings with you.

In short.....you are starting to establish intimacy with him.

The next step of intimacy for a man is physical.....He may not be able to open up anymore until there is a physical connection with you again.....

Once that happens the flood gates may open........that will be the real test for you......meaning there will be a lot more "TONGUE BITING" on your part.

Thanks for the update......

Things are going well.....

Cheers

[Mila]

GAG - As everyone else here...I'm cheering for you...you are doing a fantastic job...way to go

looking forward the next chapter

[Sanderika]

OH ((((GAG))))

You and XH had a wonderful evening of re-connecting.

I love it that he was raring, ready and expecting to go out after TT, I am so excited for you. Last night with you was a place of refuge for XH away from all his troubles. He chose to spend hours with you. THIS IS HUGE!!!!!!

I agree with Missher,

Keep your expectations at bay. AND you must bury your thoughts of criticizing his comments. NEVER DO IT!!!!
AND...
XH is thinking about you as more than TT partner and thinking about you when not with you!!!

To truly have a chance at a great future together you must remember and practice at letting go of his "you've got to be kidding me" insane comments and the past problems that separated you two in the first place.

It's a new beginning with new thoughts and ideas and it's been fun so far making a reconnection. Keep moving forward with what you have been doing....it's working great for you.

Take every opportunity to make him feel good when he is with you.

I am very sorry that X-MIL is not doing well. For that reason, you should have the expectation that XH will be moody. It's up to you to "be there" in mind and body for him. He knows you love X-MIL very much and he will need to lean on you. This will be a very difficult time for him. I lived this with my H 6 years ago. So...be there and listen and validate and share some tender moments about her from the past and even laugh about stories and things she has done. It will be good for both of you.

Sexual Intimacy is a Love Language for most men...BUT, I would hesitate to rush XH into a physical more intimate situation at the moment. I think it would be better to work a while longer at having fun together and "lure" him slowly with your charm and unconditional love and support. I would rather it be a mutual decision that was made after a solid reconnection is in place and where there is more contact during the week, not just for TT. IMO....If you and XH were to rush into a sexual situation right now I would be afraid XH would bolt after out of fear due to the fact he is still a bit messed up in a MLC state. That would set your hard work back a long way.

I would continue with the warm hugs and little kisses. Sweet comments are always a great idea. Make XH feel worth and desired when with you.

This is sooooo much fun!!!!

Sanderika

[Lost Rabbit]

Wow girl you are doing so good :-)

Just a thought, Mr GAG will never admit he was wrong or understands why or what he did! So no expectations on every hearing those freely given, but IMHO him saying what he'd said to his sister gave him the opportunity to say maybe he was wrong and although he wont say it word for word he was showing you maybe he knows!

Mr Rabbit has been back in the fold now for nearly a year, and now I can lead him to answer questions I need to hear.. like he missed me, he could have done things differently and there is a little healing in that but its not easy to do without sounding like needy rabbit again! I can also tease him like I did this morning and say things like "well I did explain that but you were in LLL at the time so you might not remember" and he now laughs and pulls a silly madman face..

Him asking to go the restaurant with you is a biggy, he effectively asked you to go on the date you mentioned!

On the physical side, be careful, cake eating is a big trap to get stuck in, so many get stuck in there and cant get out, one because they start to feel like a wife again and enjoy it and cant let go.. and H just keeps enjoying it and not moving on..
Two because once you start it you really have to have a time span when you are prepared to say "enoughs enough Im not a FWB I want more" and be prepared for them to scuttle of cos you really are just a FWB you didnt see it..

Dates of all sorts.. we need to find other ways to lure him out, obviously TT is good but as you said its getting predicatable, your bending over table move is good once or twice but H is gonna think over time not that old one again lol!

Making him feel special is really really really key, I cant emphasis this enough.. Its were I fell down big time.. Do you know I truly believe if I gave Mr Rabbit a cuddle very evening for an hour he'd be as happy as larry with just that.. its his big EN, we are so cuddly now its hilarious we never get anything done cos we are always snuggling and in winter its too warm to move.. might get some work done in spring and summer lol!

Keep at it GAG this is a real fishing expedition for you, keep reeling him in :-)

[goodattitudegirl]

OMG, I don't know where to start! This has been a VERY busy week in real life AND DB life. I know that my posts are way too long, but I can't post from work and real life is pretty busy too, so please forgive me for long posts and for taking so long to catch up on all of your posts. You all are in my thoughts and prayers throughout the week. I am keeping up with your sitches and cheering for all of you, even if you do not hear from me. Today, I’m going to post twice: (1) to reply to your very insightful feedback and (2) to relate an e-mail I received from XH the day after we had dinner and TT together.

Thank you Missher, Lorie, CW, Mila, Sanderika, and Rabbit for your very wise counsel. You all see things from the outside that I don’t see from within the situation. When I read your words, knowing your own individual stories, the gift of your sharing your hard won wisdom with me makes my eyes tear up. Your words resonate with me deeply. Thank you!!!!!!!!!

Lorie, thank you for your encouragement. Yes, I think XH is peeking out.

CW, did you decide to fix up your fish tank????? I’ll be watching to see if this become a thread between you and H.

Mila, thanks for your continued encouragement. My XH has only recently begun to show that he HAS actually been watching me and hearing what I’ve said. I think the same probably applies in your situation.

Missher, I laughed when I read this:

I just love these debrief's.....come into work, dispense with the morning's tasks and get my coffee and settle in for an update.

The stories of our lives as posted on these blogs can be quite addicting, can’t they? I feel the same way about many of the threads I follow here.

These are all very good signs that he is "thinking" about you when he is away from you. He is also thinking about you in his future plans, you are part of his life now.

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I hadn’t thought of these events in this way, especially the “future plans” part. I’ve read SO many posts from reconnected LBSs who talk about their WAS planning future vacations with them before as one of the first big steps in reconciling. Not saying that is what THIS is, but it IS forward progress. I didn’t see that until you pointed it out. Thanks! Your succinct summary also underscored for me just how much XH IS actually listening to me, just like DR says and others have reported during piecing. I’ve just never seen firm evidence of this until now.

Ideas for next time....sit next to him while he shows you his ipad and do alot of unecessary touching. When he hugs you again.....tell him that "that feels nice, I like it when you hug me"

These are GREAT ideas!!!!!! Makes me realize how much I have pulled back since the bomb so as not to elicit XH’s anger. You are absolutely right in this assessment! I can feel it in my bones. The time is ripe to show XH this type of slightly teasing physicality while continuing sweet touches. I think he is really hungry for genuinely affectionate and generous touching,……not touching that comes from a place of need (i.e. needy woman). I just received the book “Mr. Mean: Saving Your Relationship from the Irritable Male Syndrome” (by Jed Diamond) in the mail yesterday. Jody recommended it. IT IS REALLY AN EXCELLENT BOOK!!!! The way he explains men’s need for touch and affection has helped me to understand this concept better.

You have to ask yourself......can you live with Mr. GAG in a reconciled R or M if he never fully acknowledges how insane he was acting or how much pain he caused???

Excellent question!!!!! This is a definite possibility. Thanks to you, Sanderika, and Rabbit for reminding me not to have expectations. I like Rabbit’s explanation of what happened with her and Mr. Rabbit (below).

Mr Rabbit has been back in the fold now for nearly a year, and now I can lead him to answer questions I need to hear.. like he missed me, he could have done things differently and there is a little healing in that but its not easy to do without sounding like needy rabbit again!

The next step of intimacy for a man is physical.....He may not be able to open up anymore until there is a physical connection with you again.....Once that happens the flood gates may open........that will be the real test for you......meaning there will be a lot more "TONGUE BITING" on your part.[quote]
YOU ARE REALLY SPOT ON HERE. This is how it happened the first time. XH was a little standoffish and irritable then too (maybe he was in MLC already back then?), complaining about his business partner and his employees. After our first kiss his persona changed dramatically and stayed that way for 5 years.

[quote=Sanderika] XH is thinking about you as more than TT partner and thinking about you when not with you!!!

Sanderika, thank you for this observation. Receiving this feedback from more than one observer really made me realize that this is really what’s happening.

He knows you love X-MIL very much and he will need to lean on you. This will be a very difficult time for him. . you should have the expectation that XH will be moody. It's up to you to "be there" in mind and body for him…....be there and listen and validate and share some tender moments about her from the past and even laugh about stories and things she has done. It will be good for both of you.

I was actually surprised at how much he opened up with me about his deep thoughts and feelings on this topic. He actually told me a couple intimate details about his sister’s M problems, expressed concern about financial issues re: his mother’s estate, and said he was annoyed that when X-SIL comes to visit from out of state, she doesn’t seem to want to spend time with their mother. Then the next day, XH’s sister phoned me to ask how XH is doing and if I have any insight into his recent gloomy temperament. I felt like I’d stepped into a minefield. This family dynamic existed before I met XH, but the mind-reading and indirect communication between adult children of an alcoholic parent (XH and X-SIL) is something I’m having trouble negotiating now that X-SIL and I have become much closer since the bomb. I ended up telling X-SIL that I was seeing indirect communication between her and XH and asked when was the last time they sat down face-to-face to have a real talk about what they’re going through. She said that they hadn’t REALLY communicated for some time.

Sexual Intimacy is a Love Language for most men...BUT, I would hesitate to rush XH into a physical more intimate situation at the moment. I think it would be better to work a while longer at having fun together and "lure" him slowly with your charm and unconditional love and support. I would rather it be a mutual decision that was made after a solid reconnection is in place and where there is more contact during the week, not just for TT.

This ^^^^^^^^^ is gold I think. I know this perspective comes from your experience with H and has merit. The question this poses for me is how do I reconcile this ^^^^ with the insightful masculine perspective offered by Missher? Truly, at this point I don’t feel ready for “advanced TT lessons”, but I think the flirting has really helped to move our sitch forward. I think the right approach for us is in the middle somewhere. Jed Diamond spells this out in the last chapter of his book “Mr. Mean.......” (referenced above).He says the dance of love should progress in these stages: (1)acquaintanceship, (2) companionship: relating to someone in a group or can be done with several partners, (3) friendship: the process of being with another and enjoying getting closer to ourselves and to them, (4) intimate friendship: intimate friends hold up a mirror to each other showing us what has been hidden and forbidden. It is about learning to love and accept the “unacceptable” in ourselves and the other person, (5) sensual friendship: most of us are touch starved. We never got enough touching in life. Many of us rush into sex looking for the skin contact we never got. Sensual friendship is not a prelude to sex. It is its own dance. In it we relearn to hold hands and rekindle the heat of touching someone we have gotten to know. We caress hair, shoulders, legs, buttocks, knees and toes, (6) $exual/creative lovers: recognizes that the purpose of $ex is pleasure, creation, and bonding. Each act of love creates a bond with our partner and has the potential to create new life – whether the life is a child, a poem, a dance, or an affirmation of the rebirth of the spirit, and (7) spiritual/life partners: this recognizes that the goal of spiritual/life partnership is not happiness, but the spiritual development of each of the partners and the growth of the partnership itself. I think that at this point I need to aim for dance #4 and #5 with XH.

I would continue with the warm hugs and little kisses. Sweet comments are always a great idea. Make XH feel worth and desired when with you.

Good advice.

Just a thought, Mr GAG will never admit he was wrong or understands why or what he did! So no expectations on every hearing those freely given, but IMHO him saying what he'd said to his sister gave him the opportunity to say maybe he was wrong and although he wont say it word for word he was showing you maybe he knows!

Rabbit, this ^^^^^^^ is brilliant!!!! I hadn’t considered that.

Him asking to go the restaurant with you is a biggy, he effectively asked you to go on the date you mentioned!

I hadn’t thought of this ^^^^ this way either! Your perspective means a lot to me Rabbit since you are piecing and have the benefit of hindsight.

Dates of all sorts.. we need to find other ways to lure him out, obviously TT is good but as you said its getting predicatable, your bending over table move is good once or twice but H is gonna think over time not that old one again lol!

I understand your warning about cake eating. Regarding $exual contact as cake-eating, I think that enough time has passed since the bomb, that I am hoping we can develop our new R as a distinct new R. I would like to lay the foundation with for a good R before that happens, if it ever happens. In my mind, cake-eating would be if XH treated me just as a casual friend. I am prepared to walk if he does that.

Making him feel special is really really really key, I cant emphasize this enough.

You and Sanderika are on the same page with this. I will work on this!

GAG

[goodattitudegirl]

The day after we last played TT, I e-mailed XH saying I enjoyed playing and that I was planning to visit his mother on her birthday next week. I wrote “If you are planning to celebrate in her apt. (kitty) and I could come at the same time and it would probably feel more like a party for BOTH you and your mom............If you’d rather celebrate alone with her, we can visit another time. Just let us know what you’d like to do, OK?”

A few hours later XH replied: “When I play a sport, I like to stay focused or I won't play well. So, sorry if I stay in the moment when we play, but…..if I don't, you'll walk all over me! ……………..And thanks for dinner…nice place. (He had treated 2 weeks ago so I treated this week.)

Thursday the 21st sounds good to see Mom. …………. I will bring in some cake and meet you there at 6pm? Are you off on Thursday? Are we playing TT next Wed? I don't think we'll stay long, but it will be nice nonetheless.”

So…………it sounds like on some level XH realized he was irritable while playing TT and actually apologized for his cranky mood. That’s a BIG change for him!!!!!! It’s also interesting that one month after XH chose not to be at his mothers while I was there on Christmas Day, XH and I will be together celebrating her birthday at her apartment. Hmmmmmm. Interesting…………It will be interesting to see if this attitude change lasts, or if he runs back into the tunnel…..I sense that the change is related to a change in his R with GF#2. Missher may be correct that XH, being a Mr. Nice Guy, felt caught in a catch 22 with me when he was/is? Involved with GF#2.

At 7:40pm last night XH e-mailed me paperwork from the arborist we’d hired a few years back……he e-mailed me on a Saturday night! That’s unusual for him since the bomb. I’m guessing he wasn’t with GF#2 and it appears he was thinking about me. ☺

Hard to believe XH served me with D papers and would barely speak to me 2 years ago. This is the difference 2 years can make.

GAG