At this moment, my instincts tell me to cut my losses and forget him and the 26 years we spent together. Burn it all, start fresh and completely remove myself from his access. New location, new home, change my number, change my name and go underground. That's what my instincts tell me. Reality is a different animal.
No one here could fault you for feeling that way , because we have all felt that way at one time or another. Then we realize that, no matter what, life goes on every day. Whether we are happy, or sad, hurting, or happy. That is the reality of what we are facing. Slowly, the pieces to this start making sense , and we start to realize that we have choices in our lives too. We can choose to be happy, or we can choose to hurt.
We decide that our MLCer's reality is not what reality is. What they have done is, more to the fact of what you describe above. They have run, they have gone underground. Essentially...they have burned it all.
The more you learn about MLC, the more you will see that it was not so much of a choice for them as something inside them has snapped, and they simply cannot face real , everyday, reality.
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
I have worth and value and if he can't see it, then perhaps someone else would be thrilled to be around me, have me as a partner, and actually like me just as I am for who I am NOW.
Which one of you....
You ?
Scyalla?
Charibdis ?
How can one know what truly makes them happy, if they don't know who they are ?
I will let the girls address the rest of this.....
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
I won't have to be the one that has to continually change to keep a relationship functioning, turning myself inside out every time he decides that the relationship, or I'm not good enough for him.
I don't agree with this...
As people, we continue to grow and change almost daily. Without it, we would all have no relationship problems whatsoever. We would essentially be the same person that did not go through the life trials we all have faced over the years.
It is the acceptance , and love of your partner, that allows that change, and welcomes it. As Grit stated.....your vows.
What you describe is that you sold yourself within the relationship. What I also see is that there were expectations of what a "normal" relationship should look like. That there were expectations of very defined roles within that. Very little room for movement within those parameters. That is the suppression of what you stated above...that room for growth and change.
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
Many of my friends and family feel I have done all I can and there is no more left to do. Some have flat out told me in their opinion he stabbed me in the back and twisted the knife too.
Your friends and family don't live your life, or see the demons in your closet....
That is why it is best to not involve them with the details of things. People who are truly genuine in your life,will ask what you need, not tell you what you should do...
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
In my view, he certainly doesn't value our relationship,and is quite willing to let our children suffer ( they are 9&13). "They'll adapt.", he and his counselor say. "Kids are resiliant."
Yea.....I'm fighting the urge to stick a boot up his counselors a$$ right now.
Actually, that answer is pretty "script" for most MLCers. IT is their delusion that their children will be "just fine" with their decision. It is their justification that what they are doing will not cause any emotional trauma to their children.
It is also......bogus.
I think you know this, so I will save my "soapbox" minutes...sometimes they rollover for the next month : )
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
As for me; my perception is that for him, I'm just the mother of his kids, nothing more.
No offense....
But I don't see you viewing things much differently right now..
Scylla....
What do you want ?
How can we help you get there ?
How far are you willing to go , to find yourself ?
And to find that happiness that Cat and PEI describe ?
If this is a MLC, it started 10 years ago, and I don't know I can stick out another 10 years of this garbage and his dissatifaction.
IF this is MLC, you may be right about when it started, you may not. It is one of those things we see better as we heal, as we learn more about MLC, and as time passes. Initially, I had three or four ideas of when I believe my H’s crisis started. Now I have it narrowed down to a general time area.
As far as putting up with it for another 10 years, it COULD take that long. Or it might not. The idea, is to get you to a place where you can outlast his crisis. Down the road, you may decide that you are not trying to do that anymore. Hopefully though, if you ever get to that point, you will be a much different person.
And we don’t necessarily want to try to look that far down the road. No one knows what tomorrow will bring.
Originally Posted By: S_C
I have worth and value and if he can't see it, then perhaps someone else would be thrilled to be around me, have me as a partner, and actually like me just as I am for who I am NOW.
I am going to echo Mach…
Who are you now?
Do you like yourself right now? Regardless of what your H thinks of you…
Have you plateaued and become as much as you can be or is there more inside, just waiting to come out?
I know Syclla and Charybdis. I know who they are. Is that really how you see yourself?
Or are you Odysseus?
Originally Posted By: S_C
I won't have to be the one that has to continually change to keep a relationship functioning, turning myself inside out every time he decides that the relationship, or I'm not good enough for him.
No you shouldn’t have to sit around waiting for him or anyone to decide if you are good enough or not.
That is not how this works.
I will loudly disagree with you though about changing. We all change. Life is dynamic not static. It would be really boring if it was.
We all have to bend in relationships. They ebb and flow like the tides. They don’t sit still, forever the same, like a statue.
Nothing is black and white in this world. Nothing. Except black and white. There is just so much gray area that I think you are not seeing yet…
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
No one here could fault you for feeling that way , because we have all felt that way at one time or another. Then we realize that, no matter what, life goes on every day. Whether we are happy, or sad, hurting, or happy. That is the reality of what we are facing. Slowly, the pieces to this start making sense , and we start to realize that we have choices in our lives too. We can choose to be happy, or we can choose to hurt.
Yes I understand that concept. Applying it is a learning process I'm in the middle of. to conciously put a halt to thoughts and try to turn it around into something positive or a least something that doesn't cause distress is difficult for me and probably most people that were raised with and have a negative mindset.
We decide that our MLCer's reality is not what reality is. What they have done is, more to the fact of what you describe above. They have run, they have gone underground. Essentially...they have burned it all.
The more you learn about MLC, the more you will see that it was not so much of a choice for them as something inside them has snapped, and they simply cannot face real , everyday, reality. Oh I understand he was literally DRIVEN to do what he did. It was not a fully concious decision. It was fight or flight at its most basic. For him it was simply survival.
Which one of you....
You ?
Scyalla?
Charibdis ?
Me of course. Scylla_Charibdis = between a rock and a hard place. Neither is an alternate personality. Both are painful to be squeezed between.
How can one know what truly makes them happy, if they don't know who they are ?I am in the process of finding who the "core" me is. So far, I like her.
I don't agree with this...
As people, we continue to grow and change almost daily. Without it, we would all have no relationship problems whatsoever. We would essentially be the same person that did not go through the life trials we all have faced over the years. Agreed. We do change, we do adapt. However after reading the threads, from my perspective, it appears that dealing with the MLC'er literally requires the one hanging on to hope, to become someone other than one is, transforming even one's core personality, not just how one behaves or chooses to react to certain stimuli.
It is the acceptance , and love of your partner, that allows that change, and welcomes it. As Grit stated.....your vows. My H is a decent human being, he has this wonderful spark within him, the essential "him" that I love and continue to love. I do not love what he has done,and is doing. I don't know if I should just let him go, and try to forget.
What you describe is that you sold yourself within the relationship. Perhaps I have. I'm not certain. What I expected was a full partner, someone that would offer to me the same thing I offered to them: Loyalty, Protection ( save haven), Affection, Partnership, Care-giving, Support ( not just financial),Companionship, Freedom within the relationship,Communication that's open and honest, and Respect.
What I also see is that there were expectations of what a "normal" relationship should look like. Yes there were, my parents have been married for 50 years. I fully expected H to be willing to work on our marriage and stick by me and our kids, even if it got difficult, even if there was some pain and sadness.
That there were expectations of very defined roles within that. Very little room for movement within those parameters. That is the suppression of what you stated above...that room for growth and change. As I stated earlier, growth and change is a given. Stagnation is not healthy, yet to expect to change one's core personality and not just behaviour and reactions...no.
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
Many of my friends and family feel I have done all I can and there is no more left to do. Some have flat out told me in their opinion he stabbed me in the back and twisted the knife too.
Your friends and family don't live your life, or see the demons in your closet....
That is why it is best to not involve them with the details of things. People who are truly genuine in your life,will ask what you need, not tell you what you should do...
Yes, and that's why I've ceased talking about this with some of them, they are non supportive. But yes, I feel backstabbed and betrayed, better believe it.
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
In my view, he certainly doesn't value our relationship,and is quite willing to let our children suffer ( they are 9&13). "They'll adapt.", he and his counselor say. "Kids are resiliant."
Yea.....I'm fighting the urge to stick a boot up his counselors a$$ right now. You and me both! Far as I'm concerned his counselor is unprofessional and I have considered reporting some of the things she's said to me to her regulatory agency.
Actually, that answer is pretty "script" for most MLCers. IT is their delusion that their children will be "just fine" with their decision. It is their justification that what they are doing will not cause any emotional trauma to their children.
It is also......bogus.
I think you know this, so I will save my "soapbox" minutes...sometimes they rollover for the next month : ) Then I will hop on it. I've read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce " by J. S. Wallerstein, J.M Lewis and Sandra Blakeslee. It's ugly,it's sad and tragic. Yet so many children of divorce, like childre of abuse, think: " I'm alright Jack, and my kids will be too!"
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
As for me; my perception is that for him, I'm just the mother of his kids, nothing more.
No offense....
But I don't see you viewing things much differently right now.. You're right. I do see it that way myself at the moment. Given the situation I find myself in, it's hard not to. Far as I'm concerned I was little more than a sex toy, walking incubator, and a second pair of hands for H.
However, I realise that that's my own demon and my programming that has me thinking that and devaluing myself. When you have been shown, told, and only get affirmation for performance and that is reenforced, over and over, that becomes your central value to yourself too. Then you too gauge your own self worth by how well you do or do not perform.
Scylla....
What do you want ?
I think I was pretty clear about what I'm working toward. I don't know if I can salvage my marriage. Heck, right now I don't know if I even want to. I have been dancing the tango alone for so long already. I have already done what was advised with my DB coaching, and I got the bomb dropped on me. Yes in some ways it's better than the limbo I was in, in others it is just as much pain as when I found H had taken his stuff and fled in under 2 hours.
I really want to tell H, how much he hurt me continues to hurt me and just blast him. I KNOW for a fact that doing that would accomplish exactly NOTHING, because he just doesn't give a damn. So I won't, but the tempation is strong.
I'm at ground zero right now, and what I see in my future is a slow dismantling of my life and having to rebuild it by myself, the best as I can.
How can we help you get there ?
I don't have the answer to that.
How far are you willing to go , to find yourself ? Told you, I'm giving myself five years to become whole, emotionally mature and a fully realised person. I've put in a year and a bit so far. It will be 2 years In November.
And to find that happiness that Cat and PEI describe ?
At this juncture, I'd be happy with equilibrium, never mind happy.
[/quote]
BITS Me-51, WAS-52 Kids 2 M-26yrs, H.left 2009, 2 more Bomb drops, Reconnection spring 2013 Change is inevitable, personal growth is a choice. Love is a action and choice you make, every day.
You said: "When you got married on that day so long ago did you say:
"I will love and honor you all the days of my life, in sickeness and health....
BUT
if you get scared and lose your way. If you get so scared you run away...
I won't.""
You know, I have thought about it. I fully intended to keep my vows and uphold my end of the contract. Through bad and worse, through thick and thin and I have to the best of my ability, will and heart. I am still willing to work, but not to the point where I become a shell of myself, running only to stay in place and gaining no ground.
H, broke that contract and covenant with me. So I ask myself, is upholding my end of that contract even possible anymore or is it just opening myself up for abuse?
H didn't just run away, he's staying away, by HIS choice.
I love him, but isn't part of loving also knowing when to let go?
I guess i have more thinking to do.
BITS Me-51, WAS-52 Kids 2 M-26yrs, H.left 2009, 2 more Bomb drops, Reconnection spring 2013 Change is inevitable, personal growth is a choice. Love is a action and choice you make, every day.
No one here could fault you for feeling that way , because we have all felt that way at one time or another. Then we realize that, no matter what, life goes on every day. Whether we are happy, or sad, hurting, or happy. That is the reality of what we are facing. Slowly, the pieces to this start making sense , and we start to realize that we have choices in our lives too. We can choose to be happy, or we can choose to hurt.
Yes I understand that concept. Applying it is a learning process I'm in the middle of. to conciously put a halt to thoughts and try to turn it around into something positive or a least something that doesn't cause distress is difficult for me and probably most people that were raised with and have a negative mindset.
We decide that our MLCer's reality is not what reality is. What they have done is, more to the fact of what you describe above. They have run, they have gone underground. Essentially...they have burned it all.
The more you learn about MLC, the more you will see that it was not so much of a choice for them as something inside them has snapped, and they simply cannot face real , everyday, reality. Oh I understand he was literally DRIVEN to do what he did. It was not a fully concious decision. It was fight or flight at its most basic. For him it was simply survival.
Which one of you....
You ?
Scyalla?
Charibdis ?
Me of course. Scylla_Charibdis = between a rock and a hard place. Neither is an alternate personality. Both are painful to be squeezed between.
How can one know what truly makes them happy, if they don't know who they are ?I am in the process of finding who the "core" me is. So far, I like her.
I don't agree with this...
As people, we continue to grow and change almost daily. Without it, we would all have no relationship problems whatsoever. We would essentially be the same person that did not go through the life trials we all have faced over the years. Agreed. We do change, we do adapt. However after reading the threads, from my perspective, it appears that dealing with the MLC'er literally requires the one hanging on to hope, to become someone other than one is, transforming even one's core personality, not just how one behaves or chooses to react to certain stimuli.
It is the acceptance , and love of your partner, that allows that change, and welcomes it. As Grit stated.....your vows. My H is a decent human being, he has this wonderful spark within him, the essential "him" that I love and continue to love. I do not love what he has done,and is doing. I don't know if I should just let him go, and try to forget.
What you describe is that you sold yourself within the relationship. Perhaps I have. I'm not certain. What I expected was a full partner, someone that would offer to me the same thing I offered to them: Loyalty, Protection ( save haven), Affection, Partnership, Care-giving, Support ( not just financial),Companionship, Freedom within the relationship,Communication that's open and honest, and Respect.
What I also see is that there were expectations of what a "normal" relationship should look like. Yes there were, my parents have been married for 50 years. I fully expected H to be willing to work on our marriage and stick by me and our kids, even if it got difficult, even if there was some pain and sadness.
That there were expectations of very defined roles within that. Very little room for movement within those parameters. That is the suppression of what you stated above...that room for growth and change. As I stated earlier, growth and change is a given. Stagnation is not healthy, yet to expect to change one's core personality and not just behaviour and reactions...no.
[quote=Scylla_Charibdis] Many of my friends and family feel I have done all I can and there is no more left to do. Some have flat out told me in their opinion he stabbed me in the back and twisted the knife too.
Your friends and family don't live your life, or see the demons in your closet....
That is why it is best to not involve them with the details of things. People who are truly genuine in your life,will ask what you need, not tell you what you should do...
Yes, and that's why I've ceased talking about this with some of them, they are non supportive. But yes, I feel backstabbed and betrayed, better believe it.
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
In my view, he certainly doesn't value our relationship,and is quite willing to let our children suffer ( they are 9&13). "They'll adapt.", he and his counselor say. "Kids are resiliant."
Yea.....I'm fighting the urge to stick a boot up his counselors a$$ right now. You and me both! Far as I'm concerned his counselor is unprofessional and I have considered reporting some of the things she's said to me to her regulatory agency.
Actually, that answer is pretty "script" for most MLCers. IT is their delusion that their children will be "just fine" with their decision. It is their justification that what they are doing will not cause any emotional trauma to their children.
It is also......bogus.
I think you know this, so I will save my "soapbox" minutes...sometimes they rollover for the next month : ) Then I will hop on it. I've read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce " by J. S. Wallerstein, J.M Lewis and Sandra Blakeslee. It's ugly,it's sad and tragic. Yet so many children of divorce, like childre of abuse, think: " I'm alright Jack, and my kids will be too!"
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
As for me; my perception is that for him, I'm just the mother of his kids, nothing more.
No offense....
But I don't see you viewing things much differently right now.. You're right. I do see it that way myself at the moment. Given the situation I find myself in, it's hard not to. Far as I'm concerned I was little more than a sex toy, walking incubator, and a second pair of hands for H.
However, I realise that that's my own demon and my programming that has me thinking that and devaluing myself. When you have been shown, told, and only get affirmation for performance and that is reenforced, over and over, that becomes your central value to yourself too. Then you too gauge your own self worth by how well you do or do not perform.
All of these things are choices that you can make....
You can only control the choices you make...
Finding who the person is, that makes those choices.....
Is also a choice....
Originally Posted By: Scylla_Charibdis
I think I was pretty clear about what I'm working toward. I don't know if I can salvage my marriage. Heck, right now I don't know if I even want to. I have been dancing the tango alone for so long already. I have already done what was advised with my DB coaching, and I got the bomb dropped on me. Yes in some ways it's better than the limbo I was in, in others it is just as much pain as when I found H had taken his stuff and fled in under 2 hours.
I really want to tell H, how much he hurt me continues to hurt me and just blast him. I KNOW for a fact that doing that would accomplish exactly NOTHING, because he just doesn't give a damn. So I won't, but the tempation is strong.
I'm at ground zero right now, and what I see in my future is a slow dismantling of my life and having to rebuild it by myself, the best as I can.
How can we help you get there ?
I don't have the answer to that.
How far are you willing to go , to find yourself ? Told you, I'm giving myself five years to become whole, emotionally mature and a fully realised person. I've put in a year and a bit so far. It will be 2 years In November.
And to find that happiness that Cat and PEI describe ?
At this juncture, I'd be happy with equilibrium, never mind happy.
Is it clear ?
Was it clear ?
Look Scylla, nobody here is against you....
I would venture that everyone is rooting for you here...
You do have some thinking to do...
Thinking, that would involve removing your Husband from any conclusion.....
That is the first step in detaching...
Find the center of your convictions and work toward those things for now..
H, broke that contract and covenant with me. So I ask myself, is upholding my end of that contract even possible anymore or is it just opening myself up for abuse?
H didn't just run away, he's staying away, by HIS choice.
I love him, but isn't part of loving also knowing when to let go?
Hello SC,
I can really identify with this. It's a hard question to ponder. My (now) XW had an EA (possibly PA) with OM (who I found out about much later), moved into an apartment under false pretenses (She "never really lived alone" and "wanted to see what it was like".), waited the minimum 1 year to D me, and has never looked back. We had no kids, so there was no contact after the fact, because there was no need. She told me, more or less, to stay away.
W ran away, and stayed away. By her choice too.
W broke that contract and covenant with me. So I also had to ask myself that very same question- Is upholding my end of that contract even possible anymore or is it just opening myself up for abuse?
Despite her actions, despite that the state now considers us D, despite the fact that I hear nothing from her and next-to-nothing about her.......
I still stand.
"What??? How can you say you're 'standing'??? Your M is over! There's nothing to stand FOR!!!", I hear some say.
Not true.
It took a long time. A long time and lots and lots of effort on my part to educate myself on MLC. The resources like the MLC for Dummies were a great start. But the added value in this journey was the talking to those on BOTH sides of the fence- both the LBSs AND the MLCers. (You may have to dig deep, but they are out there.) You have made a good start. Continue.
Once I had gotten a hold of exactly what an MLC is (or as much as anyone who hasn't been through one themselves can), I realized that I had learned too much about what she is going through to not stand. I couldn't "just drop her".
I stand because she is on a journey. You have read the resources and talk to some of the people on this forum, so you already know this. It's not something that you can put a timetable on, and, of course, there are no guarantees.
I stand because I know, deep within my heart, that the woman I M is still in there, somewhere. She is trying everything she can to get to where she needs to be, and needs to build all of her resources from scratch, because the old ones didn't work anymore. It's a trial and error process, and they're going to make errors. BIG ones. And a lot of them. Over and over.
I stand because I recognize that, through all of this, there is nothing that she can "do" that will ever make me stop loving who she is at the very deepest level.
And, for me, that is at least part of the secret of making your way through all of this. You can't let yourself take personally what the MLCer says to you. Most of it is externalized self anger anyway. (Usually when they pick at your faults and shortcomings, it's how they see themselves- you're just the proxy substitute.)
Is upholding your end of that contract even possible anymore? That is for you to decide. But make sure it is an educated decision. Get all the facts, as much as you can, about what your H is going through. Allow yourself to process your emotions- don't bottle them up, and NEVER express them to H. You have quite a bit on your plate already with your five year program, so be sure to cut yourself some slack.
Is it just opening yourself up for abuse? That depends. Are you able to take that education in MLC and use it as a stepping stone to feeling a compassion for what your H is really going through, instead of taking his actions and words personally? Are you going to take his outbursts and behavior as a reflection on YOU as a person, or are you going to accept that they are the uncontrollable lashings out of a tortured soul trying to be at peace with itself? If, as you say, you truly DO understand that he was driven to this, then it would seem that your answer is self evident.
Don't get me wrong. This is not a sprint- it is most definitely a marathon, and one that is untimed and on an course of undetermined length. There are no quick and easy answers, no "magic pills", no silver bullets, and no guarantees....save one.
You WILL come out on the other side a better person in so many ways. At this point in your journey, you can not even begin to fathom how much of an opportunity this is (You read right- opportunity). Yes, there is pain, and a lot of hard work, but the rewards are immeasurable.....if you stick with it. You have friends here who will help you along the way.
You love him, but ask if part of loving isn't also knowing when to let go?
Yes.
But the other part is knowing the WAY to let go.
Don't discount......instead, detach.
You can't save him from himself, and frankly, it's not your job. And it's a job only HE can do. And it HAS to be on his schedule.
Let him figure things out for himself. Actually, you have no choice in the matter in this regard.
PATIENCE AND FORTITUDE CONQUER ALL THINGS. -Ralph Waldo Emerson
DBing and MLC take their toll....Please provide exact CHANGE. -Jimbo
Mach1 said: "Is it clear ? Was it clear ? Look Scylla, nobody here is against you.... I would venture that everyone is rooting for you here...
I do appreciate that no one is against me. I understand you're trying to expose the root to the stump that was my marriage and set of beliefs about it, and myself. I am trying to answer as best I can. Words are not always the best way. I won't say reading any of this is an unemotional process for me. I am easily brought to tears these days.
"You do have some thinking to do... Thinking, that would involve removing your Husband from any conclusion..... That is the first step in detaching... Find the center of your convictions and work toward those things for now..
What are some things for you ?"
.... and that's where my problem lies. Remove my husband from the conclusion, you say. Fine, so I do this; then what is the difference between doing this and just going with his wish to divorce and calling it quits? How is it any different from having the mindset of treating and thinking of him like a stranger or a once upon a time highschool sweetheart?
If I am not considering him as part of the conclusion then dissolving financial, property, physical, emotional ties, and living my life on my terms with our kids (whom I already parent primarily by myself), and meeting my very real need for emotional intimacy, affection and sex with someone else who IS willing to meet those needs seems more reasonable and healthy. Harbouring an unrequited love and continuing to live with my needs unmet, is not how I wish to live.
BITS Me-51, WAS-52 Kids 2 M-26yrs, H.left 2009, 2 more Bomb drops, Reconnection spring 2013 Change is inevitable, personal growth is a choice. Love is a action and choice you make, every day.
I named myself this because I am between those two monsters Jack.
BITS Me-51, WAS-52 Kids 2 M-26yrs, H.left 2009, 2 more Bomb drops, Reconnection spring 2013 Change is inevitable, personal growth is a choice. Love is a action and choice you make, every day.
