On Figurative Ledge - Talk Me Down?

[Denver_2010]

Gritter, Sandi, everyone -

I let myself backslide bc I'm unsure of my strategy right now. I feel like I am working on two separate things here. 1) Working on finding myself and becoming the man/husband that I have always wanted to be, but failed in being with W; and 2) Trying to save M. Not necessarily in that order... it depends on the day.

I really have been working on #1. I know that I am nowhere near where I want to be, nor where you and others have landed after going through this process. But I am truly trying.

Where I struggle is #2. When I feel that I am ignoring the fact that I AM ALSO trying to save M. I'm beginning to think that going to complete darkness with W is not the best right now. To explain why, means to give some additional info on my situation.

As I stated before, W never truly trusted that I loved her. I tried to show her in my own way, but not in the way that she needed to be shown. W came to believe that I was selfish, self centered, and wished that I lived the 'single' life. When she dropped the bomb and left me, I told her that I planned to fight for M. To convince her that we could be happy together and our M could be a good one. I believed that then, and I still believe it.

If I don't show some action to show W that I am doing what I said that I would do, I feel that she will believe that she was right about me... that I don't truly love her, that I am selfish and self centered, that I am enjoying the 'single' life. She would be wrong, but that very well COULD be her PERCEPTION. If W believes this, she will also believe that her choice to leave me was right.

I KNOW that I need to balance this with her need for space and time to come to her own conclusions as to what is best for her life. And I know that I need to validate all of her feelings about where our M went wrong that are true... and there are many that deserve validating.

Then there is the reality of W's situation right now. She has leased a house for 6 months. I believe that this lease expires at the end of May and that the owners plan to move back in at that time. W will have major choice to make sometime in the months of March and April. That choice being 1) give our M another shot, or 2) find a more permanent living situation for her and SS.

Obviously if W chooses option 2, then I am in for a long haul in fixing M. But I still believe that there is a chance that she will choose option 1. I can't go dark on her for weeks and months at a time and support the perception of me being selfish ect. as described above and hope that I can turn this around by March or April. I have to be more proactive.

One of two things that may happen could change my opinion on this. 1) I get to April/May and she chooses to find more permanent living arrangement rather than give M another shot. 2) At any time b/w now and then she files for D or LS. If either of these things happen, I think that I can safely say that I am in for a long DB haul. At that point, I think that I would feel more comfortable detaching and possibly going dark.

Does this make sense? Am I wrong here that I can put off going dark and some of the detaching for a couple of months??

What do you guys think?

Please don't give up on me Gritter and Sandi... I value your advice, but am also trying to figure out what is best with my particular circumstances...

DBMOD - do you have an opinion? Can I get a bump too? My posts have been sluggish that last couple of days. Thanks everyone!

[Truegritter]

Does this make sense? Am I wrong here that I can put off going dark and some of the detaching for a couple of months??

Look Denver there is no right or wrong provided what you are doing is aligned with your goals.

What are you hoping to accomplish by going dark?

What do you expect to happen?

You will come through this at your own pace and you will learn what you are supposed to learn when you are ready to hear it.

I say this alot. Your pain will guide you through this.

If you keep contacting your W and nothing changes in fact you feel worse because she is not ready to listen to you.

You will stop. Not when we say you should. When you learn you should.

You know your W better than we. So do what you think best.

Me? I would let her initiate contact. If you can handle the interaction then interact. If not stay dark but do it for you.

Detachment is a tool for you to get to a better place NOT a tactic IMO.

Do not attach outcomes to it for your W. Good or bad. Only outcomes for you.

Let her alone. She will get in touch with you when she wants to talk to you. Then STFU and listen.

Why would you want to force and control all those possible and potential outcomes up there ^^^^.

Do you own a crystal ball?

Please don't give up on me Gritter and Sandi

I am here because you are here. And as long as you keep posting here no matter what, the people here will help.

You are not disserving anyone here by living your life and making choices and learning from your mistakes.

We all share this tragedy that has happened in our M. Our goal is to help you through this.

Give you the benefit of an objective view and experience.

[FellOnBlackDays]

Denver,
Saw your latest:

"Not sure if you read my longer post from last night, but I met with FIL for coffee last night. He told me that he heard from W's mom that W doesn't think that I love her and am just waiting for her to file for D so that I can get her to take on 1/2 of our debt. She thinks this bc I haven't called her, sent her flowers, or asked her on a date. The problem with this info is that it is double hearsay, i.e., from W to M to FIL to me. I don't know the context of how all of that was actually said. Anyway, it has me doubting the rule of not initiating contact with W. That is why I broke down and called her tonight. "

And I have some advice. Be careful with the in-laws. For the past 15 years, my FIL has been one of my best friends. We have season tickets together to the local college and pro teams. We do tons of stuff together despite the fact that he is 60. I lost my own father 10 years ago and he has filled in nicely. But, just this past week, he screwed me. During all this mess, he kept telling me that he was in my corner and wanted to see me stay with his daughter. He told me that I was the son he never had and he didn't want to lose me. So, one day I asked him point blank if he would help me with this mess and if he would support me through this. He stated he would.

So, one day last week, I was feeling particularly down. I called him up and asked him if I could come over to his house. He is retired and my MIL was at work. I have to go over there while my MIL is at work because she is not a fan of mine right now. She has convinced herself that her daughter is a victim in this thing. The bitch leaves me and she is the victim??? Go figure? Anyway, I showed up at FIL's house, told him I was worried about the fact that I had not heard from my W in a long time and wanted to know what he knew. He told me he understood my concern and I could ask what I wanted. I asked him probably 10 questions about her behavior and actions lately. He told me what he could. He then proceeded to tell me that he and his wife are very concerned about my W. He stated that she has been acting strangely around them and being very distant when she visits. He proceeds to tell me that he and my MIL are very concerned about her behavior and are worried about her. He was worried because apparently during one of the periods where she "went dark" she was doing it to them too, not just me. He then asks me to keep them posted if I hear anything about W. I agree. We hug. I leave.

Tuesday night when my W showed up, that is what she jumped me about right out of the gate. She was pissed because I had "interrogated" her father. She knew everything. The day and time I went over, the questions I asked, everything!!! Somebody ratted me out. I don't know if my FIL just mentioned my visit to my MIL and she ratted me out. Or, if my FIL ratted me out. None the less, NEVER, NEVER forget... Blood is thicker than water and in-laws will always take the side of their child. Just be careful about what you hear or say in front of your FIL. Don't be fooled. In his mind, you are messing with his daughter..

As for the part where they told you that your W thinks you are going to drop a D on her, that is a pickle. It is kind of contradictory. If she is through with you and doesn't care, why would she be concerned about you dropping the D on her? She wants it to be over, right? I have suffered through the same "mixed messages" from my W. I told my C about the things my W has said to me and he has commented that my W is very, very confused right now. He also can't understand why she continues to claim it is over, but exhibits the actions of someone that doesn't really know what to do. But, I know how you feel. The entire time I "went dark," I laid awake at nights wondering if my W thought the "darkness" was me showing her that the feelings of wanting to end this thing were mutual. I am happy to report that Tuesday night I was able to clear that up. When she inquired about me "going dark," I told her I did it for two reasons. One, she asked for it. Two, it was for my own good and for my own reasons that she was not privy to. She smiled and thanked me for the time and space that I gave her. Of course, this was moments after she told me it was over. But, when we "go dark," we show them that we can stand alone. That we can, should we chose, walk away also. We show them that they don't hold all the cards. I know my wife was probably freaking out a bit when I "went dark" for close to a month. I went from emailing her three times a day, sending cards and flowers, calling constantly to nothing for four weeks. It sucked. I paced the floors worrying that my actions were being misinterpreted. But, we can't worry about that, man. When we "go dark," we are putting a message in a bottle and throwing it out to sea. Will it reach our spouses? Who knows? But, we have to throw that bottle in the ocean for our own sanity. We have to throw that bottle to prove to no one but ourselves that we can do it.

But, don't feel bad about contacting her. Hell, I told you to do it a couple of threads ago. I am glad it felt good for you. Now that my W and I have agreed to an open line of communication going forward, I do plan on making some "light" contact here and there. Just keep doing what you are doing. Call, be breezy, make small talk and hang up after a few minutes. Eventually, she will start to wonder what is going on and may stay on the line a bit longer in the future. Not to mention, it will quell your fear that she thinks you are going to drop a D on her. If you are calling her to be a "friend," she won't think a D is coming. Not to mention, at some point you may catch her in a chatty mood and who know what will happen.

I do find it somewhat ironic that you and I are giving each other advice considering we both ended up in this mess around the same time. But I guess it never hurts to hear another opinion.

Keep up the good work, buddy. Stay strong. Remember, you and I will be the ones to determine how this ends... not them.

FOBD

[Denver_2010]

Hi Mod... I submitted a few posts last night that haven't been posted yet. Have they been lost in cyberspace?

[Denver_2010]

FOBD:

Yeah, I know that I need to be careful about W's step father (who I am referring to as FIL) bc stuff will eventually get back to W. I really don't ask him too many questions about W and what she is doing bc I DO know that this wouldn't help anything. Besides, I don't think that he knows too much about what W is thinking or doing.

"As for the part where they told you that your W thinks you are going to drop a D on her, that is a pickle. It is kind of contradictory. If she is through with you and doesn't care, why would she be concerned about you dropping the D on her? She wants it to be over, right?"

Just to clarify FOBD, I don't think, or at least I don't know, if W is worried that I will drop the D on her. In fact, a little less than 2 weeks ago she was saying that she was ready to file for LEGAL SEPARATION. I'm still not sure why she was focusing on that instead of full D, but I'm not sure about anything right now. But what I was saying is that she is concerned that IF we do D or LS that I will stick her with half of our debt. We have incurred quite a bit over the past 3 years. While I make a very good living, my biz has not done as well bc of the economy. W and I had planned on paying debt over the next 5 or 6 years when she finished school and got a teaching job, which she now has. Now she is bailing on the M and is concerned that I'm going to make her pay for her share of that debt. I know that making her do this will make things difficult on her financially bc she will be a single mom again and living on a teacher's salary (who are grossly underpaid). I haven't made a decision on what I will do with this issue, but that is what she is worried about.

"But, when we "go dark," we show them that we can stand alone. That we can, should we chose, walk away also. We show them that they don't hold all the cards. I know my wife was probably freaking out a bit when I "went dark" for close to a month. I went from emailing her three times a day, sending cards and flowers, calling constantly to nothing for four weeks. It sucked. I paced the floors worrying that my actions were being misinterpreted. But, we can't worry about that, man. When we "go dark," we are putting a message in a bottle and throwing it out to sea. Will it reach our spouses? Who knows? But, we have to throw that bottle in the ocean for our own sanity. We have to throw that bottle to prove to no one but ourselves that we can do it."

My concern about going dark, not initiating any contact with W, and not pursuing at all is based on the fact that that's how I was for the most part of the last 10 months that we were together. I was a WAH a few times during that time. I'm afraid going dark etc. will only support her beliefs that I DON'T love her or care about our M. This is where my main internal struggle is as far as how to fix M.

"I do plan on making some "light" contact here and there. Just keep doing what you are doing. Call, be breezy, make small talk and hang up after a few minutes. Eventually, she will start to wonder what is going on and may stay on the line a bit longer in the future. Not to mention, it will quell your fear that she thinks you are going to drop a D on her. If you are calling her to be a "friend," she won't think a D is coming. Not to mention, at some point you may catch her in a chatty mood and who know what will happen. "

This is kind of the strategy that I have been leaning towards... at least for the next few months.

"I do find it somewhat ironic that you and I are giving each other advice considering we both ended up in this mess around the same time. But I guess it never hurts to hear another opinion. "

Absolutely not! I have pretty much stopped talking to my buddies here at home bc their advice has become counter to my goal of saving M. They and family are starting to think that I should move on. I think that they are beginning to view me as a doormat in this situation. But they haven't walked a mile in my shoes so to speak. Plus, I get sick of answering the Q "how is it going with W"... bc I don't have any answers and nothing changes on sitch from one day to another right now.

[Denver_2010]

Look Denver there is no right or wrong provided what you are doing is aligned with your goals.

What are you hoping to accomplish by going dark?

What do you expect to happen?

Well, it seems that the choices that I make on how to save M can either be right or wrong in the grand scheme of that goal Grit. I know that there is no instruction manual that fits every sitch though. That is what I'm trying to figure out by taking in as much advice as possible and molding it to my particular sitch. I would appreciate it if you, or anyone else, would scream at me to NOT do something that they saw as a horrible mistake though.

I guess that I would hope that going dark would cause W to wonder what I'm doing, thinking etc. and ultimately miss me. The brief periods of darkness haven't seemed to gain this result though. Yes, I know Gritter, I am attaching an expectation. I can't help it man.

Again, I'm not sure that going dark is the best thing for my situation. I was distant and unattached for much of the last 10 months that we were together. While I don't want to pressure her and push her away, I also don't want her to perceive that my actions only confirm what she has come to believe of me, i.e., that I don't love her and don't care about M. This is my dilemma.

You will come through this at your own pace and you will learn what you are supposed to learn when you are ready to hear it.

I say this alot. Your pain will guide you through this.

If you keep contacting your W and nothing changes in fact you feel worse because she is not ready to listen to you.

You will stop. Not when we say you should. When you learn you should.

This is something that I am really learning. I can already feel myself beginning to wear down from the emotional pain that I am going through. I figure at some point, my body will make me detach from sitch just out of self preservation. For now, I am pretty resilient.

You know your W better than we. So do what you think best.

Me? I would let her initiate contact. If you can handle the interaction then interact. If not stay dark but do it for you.

Detachment is a tool for you to get to a better place NOT a tactic IMO.

Do not attach outcomes to it for your W. Good or bad. Only outcomes for you.

Let her alone. She will get in touch with you when she wants to talk to you. Then STFU and listen.

Why would you want to force and control all those possible and potential outcomes up there ^^^^.

Do you own a crystal ball?

No, I wish that I did though. I feel that I have a couple of months where I can try to be her friend and try to break through before she is forced to find more permanent living arrangement. If W does not come around to working on M and chooses to find a new place to live once her current 6 month lease expires in May, or if she files for D or LS, I will then focus more on detaching, going dark etc. I feel that I need to be at least a little proactive and loving based on my behavior during last 10 months that we were together. I think that this is where I am leaning Grit.

Detaching IS for me and at some point I will have to do it if things don't improve. In the meantime I will detach as much as I can without losing my ability to subtly show W that i am fighting for our M, and I will endure the pain until I can't any longer.

I am here because you are here. And as long as you keep posting here no matter what, the people here will help.

You are not disserving anyone here by living your life and making choices and learning from your mistakes.

We all share this tragedy that has happened in our M. Our goal is to help you through this.

Give you the benefit of an objective view and experience.

Thanks Gritter. Words cannot describe how grateful I am for you and everyone on this board for the support and advice.

Denver

[FellOnBlackDays]

Denver,
I know how you feel in regard to the advice your friends give you. I have invoked a new policy. I no longer discuss my sitch with anyone who has not already been through this. Every time I would discuss my sitch with a happily married person who has never been separated or divorced, I would get sunshine blown up my skirt. I was getting tired of hearing, "don't worry, she will come back." They don't know that and they don't know what I am going through. That is why I love this forum. This thing is a life-saver. Here I can talk with others that are in the same painful place and get real advice from those that know.

As for your worry about "going dark" being misinterpreted, that is a problem. I have the same history with my W. For most of the last year we were together, I was an "absentee husband" with some serious communication issues. That is one of the biggest reasons why she left. But I have to say, my "going dark" didn't seem to hurt the sitch. Remember, you can't change her mind. I struggle with this also. My C has told me time and time again, I can't make my wife come back. I have to let her search her soul and find the desire to come back on her own. My W left because she was mad at me for being a less than stellar husband. So, I gave her two months of "going dark" so she could have some time to forget why she is mad at me. Now, I am still in a huge bind here and have a long way to go (I know you know that because you have been reading my updates). She is still claiming it is over. But she has seemed to soften a bit over the past two weeks. I think the time away from me may have helped. I guess we will see.

Sorry to hear about the debt issue. That is a tough problem to have in the middle of this mess. Just do what you can to make sure it doesn't get any worse if that is possible. I guess if she drops a LS or D on you, don't lose faith. Remember, in DB it clearly states that LS or D doesn't mean all hope is lost. I am banking on that myself right now.

Keep up the good work. Keep posting and keep in touch.

BITS!

FOBD

[sandi2]

Does this make sense? Am I wrong here that I can put off going dark and some of the detaching for a couple of months??

I believe you said that after you said you would wait until she filed for D or LS.

I don't understand why a LBH would wait until she filed before detaching or using any of the LRT (this "is" the last resort). IMHO, you broke the six days of going dark b/c of your emotional needs......not b/c you saw it as saving your M. You knew you were backsliding, planned it, and then did it anyway.

See, here's the thing....if you had just told her that you were calling to see if she and SS were okay, and then cut the conversation off when she said "thank you", it would not have been quite as bad. But you didn't. She did not want to talk to you. You missed your cue. Then you proceed to remind her (as if she needed) that you were her H and still fighting for the M. Big mistake, IMO.

When I was a WAW, those things would turn me off so much! Listen, if the W is wanting out of the M, then the last thing she wants to hear from you is that you are fighting for the M. And when you tell her something that she already knows (like you're still her H), that is a big turn-off.

There was nothing attractive in that phone call. It made you look pushy, weak, and needy. But, that's just my opinion from the eyes of a WAS.

Do you know what I see in these posts from LBH's who say they aren't going to detach b/c of this reason or another reason? I see a man doesn't have the courage to do it. Fear has hold of him and therefore, he tries to find excuses.

I'm not trying to force you to do what I say, but if you ask me what I think.....I'll call it like I see it.

[Denver_2010]

FOBD - Played poker with some of my best friends last night. I think that they asked me one time how it was going with W. I told them that we were still 'married' on Facebook, so that was a good sign. I kind of laughed at my response and then told them that I was really just too emotionally exhausted from situation to talk about it. None of them have ever gone through this, so they don't get it. I'm pretty sure that they, and my family, are beginning to wonder why I don't move on.

I'm glad that you understand where i am coming from on the 'going dark' issue that I am having a problem with. Sandi let me have it above for calling my W the other night, which I understand. But my W and I were pretty damn dark for the first 3 weeks that she and I were physically separated. And my W, like yours, seems to have softened a bit too. Then there is the conversation that I had with FIL where he tells me that she is telling her M that she doesn't think that I love her or that I care about M bc I am not doing anything proactive. This is my internal struggle as far as strategy moving forward. I feel like I have Josh McDaniels coaching my DB team here... no clear direction or organization!

I'm going to re-read the relevant portions of DR tonight and make my second appt with my real DB Coach tomorrow.

BITS!
Denver

[Denver_2010]

Ouch Sandi... that one hurt! In all seriousness though, I appreciate your honesty. I know that your goal here isn't to hammer us with a 2x4 and that you are only doing it bc you care. I will take it any time that you think I deserve it.

You are right, I backslid bc of my own emotional needs. And I used conversation with FIL to justify it. However, I'm still not sure that the info that he provided me should not be taken into account. I've read quite a few of your threads Sandi, but I don't remember ever reading anything about what I'm about to ask. I apologize if you've answered this before and I have either missed it or forgotten the answer. But when you were the WAS, was it at all due to your H being a "absentee H", as FOBD has described it? I mean, I was really a WAH for a few months there towards W. I slept on the couch, didn't really speak to her, had told her I was done with M. I made her feel that I didn't love her or care about M. I guess what I am trying to figure out is if this was at all the case with H when you were WAS, didn't his detachment from you enforce feelings of abandonment that you already felt from him? I"m not sure if this makes sense. Let me know if I need to clarify Q.

Do I have the courage to detach from W? No, not yet. The fear that it will push W farther away prevents me from having that courage. Is my explanation as to why detachment isn't best for my sitch an excuse? Maybe. I need to think about this some more. It is a good question though.