On Figurative Ledge - Talk Me Down?

[Denver_2010]

I have been feeling that I am a doormat right now.

You are a doormat as long as you believe you are a doormat.

You are a doormat if you let someone elses choices dictate what you believe and choose.

You will always be beholden to someone if you let them wipe their boots on you.

What does that mean?

If you feel your W's choices define you. What you do because of those choices, regardless of your own will, honor and self...

If you react to her choices out of anger or any other emotion that is not part of yourself... that destroys yourself.

THEN you are a doormat.

AND

You will carry that into your next relationship. Whether that is with your W or not.

There is no better time than now Denver. To see and understand what kind of man you want to be.

Your choices define you. No one elses.

Thank you TrueGritter. I have never been a doormat to anyone before. I only feel that way now bc of the choices that my W is currently making. And I think that the reason that I was beginning to feel that way is due to how I assume others may be viewing my reaction to her choices. I assume that others, my friends and family, believe that I should respond with anger and action... that action being taking the initiative in the destruction of my M.

I believe that this, again, is my ego controlling my feelings about my own choices to stand and continue fighting for M. My ego says that I should respond how my friends and family would expect me, the old me, to respond. My ego says that my friends and family will not respect my decision to make the choice to fight for M under these circumstances. Does it matter what my friends and family think? It does NOT. I have to live with the choices that I make today and everyday going forward. I need to be able to look myself in the mirror. Not anyone else. I think that I have let my ego control my actions far to much in my life.

[Denver_2010]

Response to Gritter from my other thread:

Originally Posted By: Denver (on other thread)
"I just don't see how this can be fixed... how things can ever be comfortable again"


"I can identify with how this makes you feel. You want to fight back and convince her not to think that way.

The first thing you must begin to understand here and pretty quick

YOU CANNOT CONTROL ANOTHER PERSON

Validating her feelings is not agreeing with her. It is merely recognizes that she has them and that you are listening.

But you really aren't listening. You are defending yourself and trying to convince her her feelings are wrong or misguided."

I am trying to focus on JUST validating her feelings when we do have contact, which is rare, and when those talks turn to R, which is even more rare right now. It is just a struggle bc obviously my goal in coming here to this site, like everyone else, was to save M. As I'm sure that you know Gritter, it is difficult to swallow the fact that we CAN'T control our Ws, the choices that they make, or the situation in general. They are driving this runaway train that we are on and it is scary to accept they may choose to drive it straight into a mountain.

"You have admitted to some things about yourself that you say your W may have complaint."

Absolutely. That makes this even harder. If I truly believed that I had been a good H to my W, I would feel less guilt, less need to fix things as Sandi has pointed out. I was NOT a good H though. Depression and other issues caused me to be, really, a WAH who had not consciously walked away. In many ways, I abandoned our M. It took her leaving me to wake up. I see that now. And DAMN do I wish that I had realized it sooner.

"I would say to you that you need to dig deeper there. You kept these relationships with other woman she did not know.

How do you think that made her feel? Ok valid?

Now the big question is why Denver? Why did YOU choose that?"

Bc I was an insecure idiot who followed his ego's lead?? I'm really learning some stuff about myself by just writing here and responding to some questions. It is easy to be honest with everyone here... and honest with myself.

Truth be told, when I met W I was not in a good position to be entering into a R. Like you Gritter, and I hope that you don't mind me mentioning this in my thread, I had not dealt with some issues that I had that were the result of another previous R some years before. In fact, I think that some of my issues go back to about 1994.

Anyway, I wasn't in a good place to enter into the R with my W. I had been single for a while. Built up a nice network of ex gfs and female friends. When W entered into picture, I didn't want to give that up. Why? Fear of losing my independence. Fear of what would happen if my R with W, then GF, didn't work out. And again, fear of what my friends might think. Would they think that I was becoming soft, or the house cat that I always had playfully described my married friends? My ego and insecurities drove a lot of my choices.

What hurts as bad as anything that i am going through right now Gritter is the realization that these choices hurt my W more than I ever realized or cared to realize. These choices caused much more damage than I ever dreamed that they could. Damage that lasted years. Damage that accumulated over time, to the point that W couldn't deal with anymore. This hurts more than anything.

"Also do you think taking up with other women whether physical or just emotional is helping you in trying to save your M?"

No. Of course not. It is just feeding my ego. Filling the void that I feel from my W being gone, from her finally rejecting me.

I just wish that W could here your words where it comes to OM right now. I wish that i could send a link to the website to her. I wish that she were trying to learn from situation rather than temporarily and falsely feeding the void that she has felt in M. I know Gritter, I cannot control what she does. I can wish can't I?

"I am not here to kick you in the cowboys but you need to look at the whys of the what you are doing and have done."

I deserve to be kicked in the cowboys Gritter. I appreciate you and Sandi's pointed questions. They are helping me process here.

"Your SS. This is going to be difficult for you to get a grip on. I know you feel the need to try to rescue him. Why force his father to see him? Why force anything here Denver?

You care about him. You want him to know that you have not abandoned him.

Tell your W that is important to you and that under the circumstances you want to repsect her wishes and what she ultimately sees as best for her son.

Don't push on this issue. Letting her know you repsect her judgment on that may go a long way or it won't. Either way ultimately you have no say in the matter I am afraid."

My W knows how I feel about SS. But one of her complaints about me was that I didn't spend enough time with him. That I didn't step up enough in the role of step father for him. This is one of my 180s. And she seems to be okay with me having a role in his life right now. I will, of course, respect any and all of her wishes here. He is her son and I understand that I need to respect how she feels.

But I'm going to try to stay connected to him as long as she's good with me seeing him and being part of his life. I've failed with my family enough already. I would never be able to look myself in the mirror if I abandoned SS bc of my W and I's issues. I will be there for him as a friend, a step father, or whatever as long as he wants me to be.

Why did I assist W in getting SS's father to be a part of his life? Bc I am a fixer Gritter. I am a rescuer. Again, I may be plagerizing some things from your thread here, but I learned so much by reading it. One thing that I learned is that I feel a need to rescue people. My W was a struggling single mom when I first met her. I took the role of trying to fix her life and the life of my SS. Unfortunately, taking on that role ended up biting me in the ars bc I became judgmental of W on some things and she ultimately resented me for some of these things.

All of the following way prior to us getting married... I saw a situation where W was struggling with son who was having emotional problems. Problems that therapist was telling her was partly result of his father's absence. In addition, father wasn't paying what he should have been in child support. All of this was causing W to struggle and suffer as mom and as provider for her son. She couldn't afford lawyer to deal with situation, so I did got one for her. I wanted to rescue her and SS.

"When you interact with your W you say it is diffucult and you takes backward steps.

Then don't interact with her. Don't be mean or spiteful. Respond to her for whatever it is that she is contacting you about. Do it in email or text if you have to.

You must begin to detach and most importantly stop focusing on your W and every little word that comes out of her mouth."

I read this all of the time Gritter, but I struggle to see how M will be fixed if I detach too much. Isn't that what W is doing? Detaching from me? Isn't that why I hear from her so rarely? If we both detach, what chance does M have? I KNOW what you are saying, what MWD says, but it is so against my instinct here that it is very difficult.

n"If you look at your M and in the mirror today are you happy with the man you were and are. Are you proud of the husband you have been?"

No.

"Start asking yourself those questions.

Then undertsand that what you choose from this point on is for you. Whether you decide to stand in your M or not.

Do it for you. Not for what your W has chosen or not chosen. Not for what she has said or not said.

In fact you will see it may be in spite of what she is telling you and doing in your M right now."

Can you clarify what you mean by this "in spite of what she is telling..."????

"That is the place of strength you must conquer your fears and doubts to get to.

And maybe. Your W will want that man back in her life."

I want to be there and am trying. Thanks Gritter for you thoughtfulness.

[sandi2]

The one question that I have from your post is this, can my W respect me when I am NOT taking the hard line approach re OM? When I just don't say anything about it at all? I'm pretty sure she knows that I don't approve just from how I initially reacted.

There is a time for everything. As it's been said before, no one size fits all. The two of you are S, so she will not respect you sticking your nose in her business (as she'll see it) and telling her to choose between you & OM. She has already made a statement by walking away. Even though the two of you are legally M, she won't think you have a right to tell her anything.

Then there's the other thing that we've already discussed, and that's your female friendships that will need to die a sudden death.....and not be resurrected. To her, you were doing the same thing, just not a PA. So, she's got to have time to get over this dude and to see your changes.

That gives both of you time. Make time your friend instead of your enemy! Every time she sees you, make her heart flutter and wish she was back with you instead of the OM.

THEN, when she makes her little hint of wondering if the two of you could ever make a go of it......THAT IS THE TIME to tell her that the only way a M will work is for there to be no third parties involved.....not for her....and not for you.

[Denver_2010]

I really hope that it all works out like that Sandi. thanks for the advice. I plan to follow it.

[Denver_2010]

I'm having an internal struggle regarding what I should do in the coming days and weeks. I need to make another appointment with my DB coach, but I would really like to hear what others here think.

I met my W's step father (I will refer to as FIL) for coffee after he texted me asking if he could meet with me. He has been gracious enough to go to church with me almost every Sunday since the bomb. Church was never something that I did prior to bomb but I have been exploring my spirituality along with the psychology of my issues for the past 2 months. All of this with the hope of finding myself and correcting some of my faults that contributed to failure of M.

Anyway, FIL and I met for coffee. He notified me that he had heard from W's mom that W: 1) does NOT believe that I love her; 2) that she believes that I have given up on M bc I am doing nothing to try and win her back. Specifically, that I haven't contacted her, sent her flowers, asked her on date etc.

2 other bits of information that he provided me with are:

1) While he doesn't know if W has or had A with OM, he does NOT believe that they are spending much if any time together right now. He bases this off how much he is having to babysit step son bc of W's work schedule and fact that he picks step son up from W's house every morning to take him to school and OM is never there.

2) W's mom has seen bible scripture on the fridge at W's home and maybe W is close to going back to church herself. W was raised in a religious home but got away from it herself. She alway wanted for us to go as a family but I always refused due to my agnostic beliefs (again, something that I am currently exploring within myself).

Okay, so now where I am having the internal dilemma. I have been employing the LRT and following DB Coach advice not initiate contact with W, not to tell W that I love her, and not to tell W that miss her. FIL STRONGLY suggested that I begin to be more proactive in trying to fight for my M, which he knows that I want to do. He suggested this based upon what he heard from W's mom... that she doesn't believe that I love her and that I've given up on M.

FIL's advice and DB advice conflict in a big big way here!!![/b]

[b]A little more info on my sitch that makes me think that I need to consider FIL's advice:

1) W never really believed that I loved her. Probably bc I was such a freakin jacka*s in the beginning of our R, kept female friends where I did not include W, "broke up" with W many times in the first 5 years of our R, and subconsciously tried to change things about my W that I did not like by being critical of her. Yes, I was a real a*s. I know and have beaten myself up for it for 2 months now.

2) W has never been one to initiate things, ESPECIALLY when she thinks that she is in the "right". She is stubborn as h*ll. What I am saying is, that she could probably go years without saying a word to someone who she has had an argument with while waiting for that other person to initiate making up. This has always included me. We could have an argument and there would be NO WAY that she was going to be the one to be the first to break the ice afterwards.

3) I am the same way. I am stubborn. but the no initiating contact, no I love yous, and no I miss yous, that I am doing now is not being stubborn though. I am just following DB advice. But it COULD be being SEEN by W as me just being the same old stubborn me. In other words, it could be backfiring.

4) Been employing LRT for right about 6 weeks... bomb dropped approx 8 or 9 weeks ago... W moved out of home about 7 weeks ago. I thought that I was gaining some traction around xmas when W initiated contact with me 6 our of 8 days and actually allowed me to see her and step son while dropping off presents at her mom's 2 days before xmas. BUT, it has now been 6 days of complete darkness.

I need some feedback. Obviously, me doing any of the things like my FIL suggested would be pursuit. On the other hand, while it hasn't been that long, the LRT does not seem to be getting me many results.

[Edmond Dantes]

If it were me faced with your dilemna, I think I would consider sending her a little irreverent note or card if you can find the right occasion, something light but meaningful between the two of you, like an 'in' joke.

I'd suggest you see what her reaction is and do more of what works. If she is as stubborn as you say, it could be that the small initiative she took at Christmas was more meaningful than it might have otherwise appeared.

Good luck with this.

[mj144]

That is great news Denver. I would think that in this instance that you have to use some of your instinct and only take DB techniques for what they are worth. They are a guide, but in this set of circumstances, I would think coming out of the dark and opening up to her is what you should be doing. Just don't overdo it. Stick the proverbial toe in the water if you will. It sounds like she wants some reassurance from you which is a sign that she wants to be with you. Good luck. I will live vicariously through this since my W seems to be getting ever so distant from me.

[Denver_2010]

If it were me faced with your dilemna, I think I would consider sending her a little irreverent note or card if you can find the right occasion, something light but meaningful between the two of you, like an 'in' joke.

I'd suggest you see what her reaction is and do more of what works. If she is as stubborn as you say, it could be that the small initiative she took at Christmas was more meaningful than it might have otherwise appeared.

Good luck with this.

Thanks Edmond. I'm clueless to WTF is going through her head. Sandi, Truegritter, Bond, Pickle, what do you guys think?

Anyone other ideas out there? This conversation w FIL has me very confused as to my next move...

[Denver_2010]

I wish that I were as optimistic about this as you MJ. I'm not saying that it is bad news, but I've accepted that I have no idea what is really going on.

Other opinions?? Please...

Yes Sandi, I am impatient

[InAPickle]

Sounds to me like an opportunity to leave some crumbs for the squirrel to see if it will come feed.

Think of something. I wouldn't let an opportunity slip by if I recognize one.

What is the worst that can happen?