Need advice and support to keep hope

[Denver_2010]

So called step son tonight and had a short conversation with him. Texted him a little later to see if he wanted to go to college hockey game with me sometime in next couple of weeks. He said he did, so I told him to ask his mom, W, if she would let him go with me. He texted me back saying that she didn't know, for me to call her.

I texted W "Hi. I just asked SS if he wants to go to hockey game. Am wondering if you will let him go"

W: "I'm sitting next to him and heard. I hate to get in the way of you two if its healthy. I'm just not sure if it is. He doesn't understand all of this. Let's talk. I will call later."

Me: "That's fine"

W: "Will call after I put SS to bed"

Okay... I'm sooooo afraid of this telephone call that's going to occur later this evening. I have no idea what W is going to say. My biggest fear is that she will bring up OM and confirm my biggest fear... that being that EA has progressed to R.

Can anyone give me advice or encouragement on taking this call later?? Please. I feel so depressed about her text and the impending tc that has even taken place. I don't know what is wrong with me...

[sgctxok]

Denver--assume the BEST.

Assume she wants to hear your voice.



How would you sound on the phone if you are fearful going into this? How would you sound on the phone if you were confident, and sure she was really interested in YOU?

Your demeanor would change, and you might create the best or worst according to your demeanor.

Assume that she is just looking for a chance to hear you voice. It might be true. And you might just make her look forward to talking with you again. Oh, and you might win getting your son to a hockey game. You could get a two-fer.

[Denver_2010]

Thank you SG for your support and encouragement.

Here is the update of the telephone conversation. I think that I messed up bc I got drawn into R talk. I don't think that it went well either. W seems intent on Legal Separation. Though I'm not sure why she seems focused on that rather than full Divorce. Any ideas? Anyone?

Sorry that this is kind of stream of conscience, but I journaled it as soon as I got off of the phone so that I could remember as much as possible. It was a 40 minute conversation:

We began by dealing with issue of me taking step son to hockey game... I told W that I miss ss and just want to see him. I said that I think that SS misses me. W agrees. I told W that I have no interest in talking to him about our M situation. W said she doesn't want him to get wrong impression (referring to possibility of us getting back together) by me seeing him and is afraid it may be hard on him. W also expresses concern that I will "talk sh*t" about her to SS. I told of course I would not do that. Ultimately W agrees to let me take him to game.

W then asks me what I plan to do about M debt, how much we owe, how much I pay monthly... I told her that I haven’t put much thought into it bc i have been focused on dealing with my issues that contributed to her leaving.... W asks me about filing for Legal Separation... I told her that I wasn’t going to do it bc it is not what I want, that I don’t think that it is right, that marriage vows important to me, that I am choosing to fight for M and not the easy way out (D or LS), I told her that if we ultimately go in direction of D or LS, that I planned to remove myself from process as much as possible and would let my attorney handle all debt stuff. I referred to my attorney using attorneys name.

she got mad, asks me if I slept w attorney, I said 'no' of course not, W says that I'm going to try and screw her over, I said ‘no’ that I just want to make sure that we’re both taken care of fairly if D or LS happens. I explain that I understand that she is concerned, and why she is worried about that, but that I just haven't put any thought into any of these issues bc I do not want D or LS. So I couldn't give her answers to her questions.

She asks me why my attorney can’t file for legal separation, I told her that she could, but that I wasn’t going to have atty do that and reiterated that it is bc I don’t want D or LS. W accuses me of being the same now as in past, that I put my own concerns over her's and SS's. I said that isn't true. She asks me why then do I need attorney, why am I putting up roadblocks to LS. I said that wasn't my intent, that I simply don't want LS.

W says that she doesn’t see how M can be fixed. Can’t see it ever being comfortable again. She goes into how she has thought a lot about our history, how we were arguing at all occasions that she thought of, how we should not have got married in first place that we both knew at time that we shouldn’t. I explained that I disagreed, that I knew that I wanted to marry her, that I think she is forgetting all good times that we have had, that I thought that we didn’t have the proper help to make our marriage successful, that I know the past year has been really bad, that I know that I messed up, that I realize now that I was depressed, that I needed help, and that I caused a lot of damage to our M.

W says that I chose to leave M long before she did, I disagreed and said that I never physically left, that I never left M in my heart or my mind, that I was always proud that she was my W. I reiterated that I understand why she feels like she does, that I messed up, that I was depressed and just didn’t see it.

W says that she told me that I was depressed and I told her that she was crazy. I agreed with her and said that the reason that I see it now and didn't back when she told me, is that her leaving has been a devastating to me and caused me to reflect on my actions and my life. I explained that I was so caught up in our financial problems and security, tryinig to make sure that we would be financially taken care of now and when we are old and gray that I let myself become depressed, irritable and it cause damage to M. That I made huge mistake in trying to shield her from financial stuff bc sharing it would have been good for me and M.

W told me that she has learned a lot during Separation... that she is good person and easy to love (referring to me not treating her well)... I told her that I know that, that she is wonderful person, that I wouldn’t be fighting tooth and nail to save M if I didn’t believe that.

I told her that I had to go to sleep bc big day tomorrow and ended conversation.

[Truegritter]

Denver

I just read through your sitch.

First some observations. Your fear is driving you. The fear of what she is doing or what she will choose.

As long as you let this emtotion rule you, you will remain stuck.

That is why we say detach. This is the hardest part IMO because everything is fresh and painful.

You will want to fight back to everything she says that goes against what you want.

When you fight back you justify her reasons for leaving. You are still that jerk that has not been listening to her.

Every time you tell her you think your M can still work you are telling her "I don't care what you want, I want what I want. And I want it right now!"

Look this didn't happen overnight and won't get fixed overnight.

Also I know you love your SS and want to be with him but IMO she sees your efforts as pressure on the R. Be honest with yourself and make sure you are not using SS for that purpose.

If you are stop.

Keep children out of harms way at all times would be my advice. So how you apply that takes some thinking on your part.

Your W has some complaints against you. I am sure some are valid. The ones that sting. Female friends that are not friends of the Marriage?

When you get the fear out of your head and start detaching her picture of you may become clearer. Then your reflection may become clearer to you as well.

Find what you don't like in the mirror and kill it.

Kill it by living it, not by TELLING your W you've changed.

She will sniff out your BS changes like a drug dog at the Miami airport.

Have you noticed how she challenges you about your changes?

Your dress. The house. Your dating situation.

The normal reaction is to defend yourself about everything.

How is that working so far?

Try something different Denver.

W says that I chose to leave M long before she did, I disagreed and said that I never physically left, that I never left M in my heart or my mind, that I was always proud that she was my W. I reiterated that I understand why she feels like she does, that I messed up, that I was depressed and just didn’t see it.

Lots about you up there. I lot of talking that she has heard already?

Next time....

STFU and just listen...for a change.

This is hard sh!t Denver and you are new at it.

It will take a while but you can do it. There ain't no magic pill.

Only way through it is through it.

[zengypsy]

Jack3Beans, I really appreciate your posts, and your C.S. Lewis quote.

Zengypsy, how do you handle the lack of contact? It seems to me there is no way to build/ rebuild a relationship without seeing each other/ talking to each other at least SOME, and that's what scares me most about my husband's detachment, which I'd call "relieved" more than "loving" (although I could never accuse him of treating me with anything but kindness).

I'm curious if people really believe the claims about affairs always ending. I did Mort Fertel's program before this and he asked "if the OM/OW really is the love of your spouse's life, why don't we all know stories of people who are happily married that started with an affair?" and I started thinking about it, and first came up with my cousin Lori, who started seeing her husband when he was separated from his wife, and they have been happily married for some 20 years. Brangelina? I have no idea how happy their relationship is - what can you know really from the tabloids - but Brad has stayed with Angelina longer than he was with Jennifer. And I just read Mighty Queens of Freeville (best divorce survival story I've ever read) and the author's husband had an affair that turned into his second marriage and lasted at least until their child together started college 17 years later. I'm not only not reassured by the idea that my husband's new relationships can't work out "because they're founded on dishonesty," I'm not even sure I WANT it to be true! I want him back, to be sure, but if I can't have him, it's not like I don't want him to ever be happy again. What gives?

Grebjack - You have a very valid question. As a matter of fact, I started a thread last night about getting more advice about the "Going Dark" method. In my case things are now pitch dark.

From what I've been told by many, affairs do not last because they are simply a distraction from what's really going on. WAS/MLC'ers seem to jump from one relationship to another and 9 out of 10 they don't last. Why? Because they still haven't gotten in their heads that they are part of the equation in the breakdown. It's so easy to blame someone else or something - after all it couldn't possibly be them. My sense is that by "Going Dark", it's supossed to help you and your S look at things objectively and GAL. I don't know how or if this technique works when there is an OM/OW involved. All I know is that at some point, the WAS will have regret and realize what they have lost. The cool thing is WE get the be the deciding vote whether we want them in our lives again. And I think it would have to be with some condition, i.e. going to C. You just can't jump back into things because if it wasn't working before and there were no changes, it's not going to work again. If you got a dollar for every person who had an A and said they found the love of their life during this kind of turmoil we are all going through, we'd all be rich! It's nothing but smoke and mirrors!

[Denver_2010]

First some observations. Your fear is driving you. The fear of what she is doing or what she will choose.

As long as you let this emtotion rule you, you will remain stuck.

Thank you Gritter for reading about my situation. I really appreciate that as well as your thoughts. You are correct. I am driven by fear right now. I am working on detaching... not completely walking away, but in the sense that I won't be SO attached to my Ws thoughts, actions, and ability to affect my own happiness. Though whenever I do have contact with her, I lose about 2 or 3 steps in the process. It's tough.

Every time you tell her you think your M can still work you are telling her "I don't care what you want, I want what I want. And I want it right now!"

I understand. It is not validating her feelings and is pressuring? Right? What is a better response to W when she makes statement like mine did the other night:

"I just don't see how this can be fixed... how things can ever be comfortable again"

I merely responded: "i understand that you feel that way." It seems not saying anything to inject hope into her mind is almost agreeing with her. I DON"T agree with her damn*t! And I don't understand why she is giving up so easily. I know, I know, STFU.

Also I know you love your SS and want to be with him but IMO she sees your efforts as pressure on the R. Be honest with yourself and make sure you are not using SS for that purpose.

If you are stop.

Keep children out of harms way at all times would be my advice. So how you apply that takes some thinking on your part.

The situation with SS is complex. He has some emotional issues, maybe depression, maybe bipolar... but one thing is certain, is that he has a feeling of abandonment. From W when he was very young and she had to work a lot to support them and from his father who lives in Cali and very rarely saw him until I hired attorney for W to basically force him to begin seeing and contacting SS. Also, one of my W's complaints about me during M has been that I didn't spend enough time with him, didn't bond with him enough, etc. I tried, even coached his baseball team one year, but my career takes a lot of time, so it has been difficult. BUT, I do NOT want to give either him or W idea that I am abandoning him just as every one else has. I do love him and do miss him. Sincerely.

However, I'd be lying if I denied that I don't hope that my efforts will work in my favor in winning W back. So I guess Gritter, there is a little of both motivations going on here. I can't control if W thinks that I am manipulating her. Like I said, there would be a tad bit of truth there, but there is also a huge amount of true intention to do what is in SS's best interest... not to feel abandoned by me.

Your W has some complaints against you. I am sure some are valid. The ones that sting. Female friends that are not friends of the Marriage?

I am guilty here. During our R and M I always had female friends whom I did know prior to meeting W that I considered my friends. During the first few years of R, I was resistant to including W (the GF) in on the relationships. Why? I honestly don't know. Probably my stupid fear of losing my independence. As W and I's relationship progressed though, I gradually weeded most of those female friends out of my life. At least they became much less prominent in my life. But W would still see them on FB and the damage had been done early in our R. W always had trust issues with me bc I had a number of female friends who she was never allowed to get to know. My bad... big time.

And yes, I have been reconnecting with an old female friend who is going through a divorce. I have been honest with W about it. thus, W's comment to me that I have so many women in my life who she has no idea about. Not to mention the emails that she found from 5 years ago. In any case, I have never cheated on W. I guess it doesn't matter though since W does not believe me.

Find what you don't like in the mirror and kill it.

Kill it by living it, not by TELLING your W you've changed.

She will sniff out your BS changes like a drug dog at the Miami airport.

Have you noticed how she challenges you about your changes?

Your dress. The house. Your dating situation.

I truly believe that the changes I am making are for me. I have realized that during the 10 months prior to W leaving that I was going through depression. I generally was not a very fun person to be around. And my W probably took the brunt of it. I am dealing with depression by seeing IC and by generally letting go of the things that were causing the depression.

My W may be seeing my changes as BS. I agree with you that she has called me out on those things. I also agree that I've had a tendency to go over board trying to demonstrate those changes when I have contact with her. I will work on laying off of that in the future for sure. Thanks for making that so clear.

W says that I chose to leave M long before she did, I disagreed and said that I never physically left, that I never left M in my heart or my mind, that I was always proud that she was my W. I reiterated that I understand why she feels like she does, that I messed up, that I was depressed and just didn’t see it.

Lots about you up there. I lot of talking that she has heard already?

Next time....

STFU and just listen...for a change.

You are right. I'm wanting to tell her how things can be different. Actions not words, right? It's really hard practicing STFU when W simply sees things through some rewritten history and her fog. I will do better.

Thanks again Gritter. I really appreciate you, and everyone else, who takes the time to read through the problems of everyone else on this board. I hope to return the favor to someone else on this board someday.

[Denver_2010]

Zeng and Greb - I'm not sure what either of you is doing is considered going dark? Sandi, what do you think? J3B?

I THINK that there is a difference bw "going dark" and simply stopping the initiating of contact, which is what I am doing. I don't initiate contact with W, but will have short, to the point conversations, with W when she initiates. That is what my DB Coach suggested. But I don't think that is going dark.

[Denver_2010]

SG - Thanks for the words of encouragement the other night. Please keep it comin if you can. Lord knows that I need it.

[Denver_2010]

Zeng and Greb - I'm not sure what either of you is doing is considered going dark? Sandi, what do you think? J3B?

I THINK that there is a difference bw "going dark" and simply stopping the initiating of contact, which is what I am doing. I don't initiate contact with W, but will have short, to the point conversations, with W when she initiates. That is what my DB Coach suggested. But I don't think that is going dark.

I'm really curious about this question bc it applies immediately to the manner in which I am dealing with my situation. Any thoughts?

[Denver_2010]

DMOD - I'm sorry to bother you, but I think that there is something wrong with this thread. It is never being bumped to the top of the board when a new post is placed on it. For example I just checked my thread and my post from 11:52 this morning is on the thread, but my thread is on PAGE 7 of all of the threads and is showing that the most recent post on the thread was on 12/29/10 at 5:57 p.m.

No one is reading my posts bc the thread is too far down the list. Would you mind checking this out?

my username is Denver_2010 and the thread name is "need advice and support to keep hope".

Thank you