You did not miss a thing. Tomorrow night we have our counseling session. This is about number 9 together and we each went to two seperate with same counseler. OM's wife called me yesterday to see how things where going on my end. OM will admit to nothing and I did not think that it would be a good idea to tell her what my wife has shared with me. It would only set her off and I would come off looking like the bad guy.
I told her that the only thing we can do is be the best people/person that we can be. If we both work together we may be able to break the cycle. She agreed and said that is what her counseler told her to do was take care of herself.
I have told her that she must be going through something terrible and I want to be there for her. I told her one night that if she misses the OM that she can tell me. She said do you really want me to say that? I said yes I want to be your friend. I can't say that over the last year that have not been any backslides albeit small.
Our action item from our last session was to put together things that we need to recover our marriage. I know she has not done anything as far as putting her list together. I guess what is most important to me is that she feels like she can trust me and we can be honest with each other. This is something that has been lacking.
She has been very very quiet this week and I have been giving her all the space she needs. Not talking about the issues etc. So very hard because in someways it feels like if we are not talking then we are not making progress. Any thoughts on tomorrow nights session. One thing you said in an earlier post was that it made you so mad when your husband would talk about your EA in your counseling sessions. Our counseler has told us that both of us need to share with each other our feelings towards one another. That one should not hold back or it comes out in bits and pieces.
Hi Bob, I am feeling out of sorts a bit today and probably shouldnt be posting in this frame of mind. So I will just address the last bit you asked about.
quote: One thing you said in an earlier post was that it made you so mad when your husband would talk about your EA in your counseling sessions. Our counseler has told us that both of us need to share with each other our feelings towards one another. That one should not hold back or it comes out in bits and pieces.
It wasnt him talking about the EA, I felt that needed to be worked through. What bothered me was sitting there listening to how much I hurt him and how I turned his whole world upside down and inside out and made him no longer want to have friends.... he was going on about how bad he was hurt by me. I hadnt dealt with the things he had done to me and they were still tearing me apart. In my opinion his multiple abuse to me for years was a million times worse then me talking to his friend about the abuse and ending up having feelings for him when I didnt even act on them.
It just absolutely infuriated me that he had the nerve to be upset with me over something so minute compared to what he did to me. His sexual abuse was terrible and I felt I would never be normal again, I had years of that to deal with on top of the fact a few weeks before I met my H I was raped and having a very hard time dealing with that. For me the rape was nothing compared to what my H put me through for so long being he was my H, someone I was suposed to be able to feel safe with who claimed to love me. the rapist was a drug addict rapist and no one to me but a stranger with a serious mental and drug problem, I had no expectations of him.
you are very right that you should talk about all your feelings. I didnt feel I could talk about my feelings and the extent of the abuse in our marriage, so as I sat there and listend to my H and I had to be empathetic and listen to him and apologize for hurting him and try to understand him my insides were tearing apart with flashes of horrible memories I didnt discuss. I would end up crying and my counselor would say you are obviously in a lot of pain and still need to forgive what can we do to help you. Well hell I didnt know I just wanted away from it it hurt to much. I hurt and felt incredibly guilty for hurting my H the way I did, it hurt that he refused to believe the EA was not a PA and he still dosnt believe me, I am just burnt out on carring what he believes anymore as far as thats concerned he is choosing to hurt over something I did not do and I have given him the truth he chooses to not except.
so by all means you both must feel safe to discuss it all. I just didnt feel I could. My counselor back then told me to write about the things that botherd me that I couldnt talk about. I couldnt even write about it. finally I did to om and he helped me through it and I am gratefull for that it was a huge road block in my personal recovery.
I don't even know where to start anymore. Last night was the night to talk about rcovery and how we get there. I list 7 things one being no contact with OM, which I have continued to request to both her and OM. I ask her in the last three weeks (after I confronted OM two weeks ago again) if there had been contact. She says yes phone calls but we are just friends.
I lose it right in front of the counseler and tell her that we are never going to recover if she keeps talking to OM. I ask her a couple of other questions about contact with him to see if she is telling the truth (in both cases she lied OM's wife told me they had talked on such and such date).
Counseler says she should stop talking to OM I asked her if she respects me she should stop. Tell her she is disrepcting not only me but OM's wife who has asked her a number of times to stop calling hub.
She then writes a nice letter about what has happened over the last 7 years of our marriage. How she has been hurt. Says that we never really connected on a deep level, which is a bunch of BS. Says she does not know what to do her heart hurts because she can't feel the way she should about be. Says that she will not do dates and other things till her heart is into it.
Says she knows I have changed and feels bad that she can't treat me the right way. Says I am a friend and loves me. But does not feel the way she should. I have hurt her and does not know if she can get it back.
I and counseler have told her that the only way to recover the marriage is to stop with OM. Does not want to listen since she is now only friends with him.
What a mess! I have been in Plan A since early this spring and it has not helped one bit. Counseler has asked to see us each seperatly next time. I really wounder if she knows what the hell she is doing. We have no plan to recover and seem to be just going aimlessly with no direction.
I know my wife is just as frustrated and hurt. She just does not know how to overcome all of this. We really got into it right in front of the counseler yelling and all. Big time LB. But I can not handle all the deciet that is going on.
Thanks for letting me vent. I have copied some of the stuff from this site and she is starting to read it. Let's see if that helps.
Hi bob, I have to make this very quick. I just want to point something out to you. I do understand your frustration! however losing it and blowing up and fighting is letting your emotions take control, I know its so hard not to do that sometimes however this is what happens with her when you do.
She feels you dont understand her or care about her feelings or you wouldnt be insisting on her not talking to her "friend". i dont buy the only friends now thing, too late for that! we all know this but this might be what she is trying to convince her self of just so she dosnt have to let go of him.
When ever you get angry (and dont understand her feelings) she then focuses on the past hurt and the "reason" the om is the om to begin with! this pushes her away from you and to him. It creates that "need" for him. It only makes things worse and reiterates to her that you will never understand her like he does and there fore what she is trying to do by working out this marriage is impossible and she is stuck in a rut.
I know to you this makes no sense, but this is whats going on when you get upset with her and are not "understanding" of her feelings. The more you get angry and yell at her to not talk to the om the more she is going to feel she needs him. You are not being her friend when you do this. Do you think her girlfriends would get angry and yelll at her for talking to om, or would they empathize with how she is feeling and what she is going through? I agree, we all agree she needs to stop talking to the om however she needs to realize that on her own, as long as she is fought with regarding the matter she will be in a defense mode and there fore wont be in a place to think clearly about the situation with out the pressure of being told what she needs to do. I ended up sneaking ot talk to the OM, when my H backed off and didnt know I was talking to him and quit yelling at me about it we began to be friends there was no more fighting about it or defensiveness about it and I was able to think clearly and come to the point on my own to "make MY decision" if you be suportive of her she can then feel closer to you and not feel she needs to be comforted by him because of you being upset with her about her wanting to talk to him. do you get it???
keep in mind I do hear you and understand where you are comming from and now its your place to be told you must do the "impossible" to save this marriage. I explained her feelings and what situations you two end up in are doing to her. It keeps her in constant turmoil with her emotions.
Thanks for the post. I guess I am human. I have held so much in for so long I guess the lies have just gotten to me. I am beaten down in so many ways. Let me clear a couple of things up. In her letter she said she has seen the changes in me and is happy that I am making them.
She also says that I am her friend and she loves me. I take those as good signs. So whatever I have been doing to DB has had some help. I don't think I can ever condone her talking to OM after I have requested it for so many times. Now I guess she knows my position and will have to do what she thinks is best.
I must be honest Sue, I sometimes wounder if I can make it through this for another year. You clearly have someone that is being dishonest with you and not being honest with herself. It can really zap your strength. Last night in someways it was good to get mad. I have been holding so much in for so long that I needed to get angry.
Thanks for your tips they always help put me in the right frame of mind. I think I will be able to keep my cool for awhile. One thing I do know is that going forward no matter what I do she is going to talk to OM
Bob, I understand. yes you are making progress its just frustrating slow unfortunatley. I avoided conflict by lieing to my H, to give myself the time work things out with out him blowing up at me. She is being honest with you and telling you she has comunicated with him.
Do yourself a favor and drop the dates of communication issue. You already know she talked to him for that two hours and she is denying it. she is trying to be honest with you and at that time she lied to you about it becuase of how angry you were about the whole thing. She now cant go back on that lie and admit and then have to go through the interogation of what all was said during that 2 hours. do your best to let that past go she obviously dosnt feel comfortable with going there with you.
Also I suggest for your sanity you stop communicating with the om W. all that does is give you more to be mad about and you dont need to be involved or focussed on them. Right now you need all your energy focussed on you and your personal behavior changes you are working on.
Come here and vent here dont bottle it up to the point you explode on her, my H had the same problem!!! every time he exploded on me he felt better getting it all out but it pushed me further away.
You realize you can not control her so quit trying it will just frustrate you more and give you more to hold in. Its like me with my situation. My H is an alcoholic he knows drinking creates trouble for him and us. However as much as I dont want him to drink I can not control wether he does or not. I look at it as his problem to deal with not mine. If he makes his life more complicated by drinking well thats his problem I cant help him there no matter how many times I request he stop. same for you.
Have you read my words of wisdom from daily readers thread? check it out if you have time there might be somethings there can help you. I think many hear can replace the unfaithful spouse where it refers to the alcoholic in the Al-Anon readings. Al-Anon realy helps you to detach from others actions and stop trying to control them. Also go back to the begining of this thread and think of it that way as you read about detaching vs controlling.
the sooner you quit trying to "control" your wifes actions the easier things will be for you to deal with the problems at hand. look at her problem with the om as her problem (even though you are affected by it) he is her addiction. So often that situation is compared to an addiction becuase the infatuation can be strong and feel like an amphetimine high. He is where she ran from her problems to and escaped her pain, she is still in pain and turmoil so for her he is the medicine she self medicates with and she is the one that needs to realize that. thats why I sugest she have personally counseling as well.
Hang in there, I do understand your feelings. I came here and read so much to understand what my H was going through because I thought he was being rediculous and I could only see things from my side.
Here is an update. The OM's wife called me today to tell me that she was going to tell my wife that she does not blame her for the problems in her marriage. That they where there a long time ago. I suggest that she not do that but she did anyway.
Not sure that it had any real impact on my wife other then confirm with her that the OM connection has nothing to do with us.
Sue I feel really hopeless right now. She keeps insisting on telling me that her feelings on not being in love with me go back two or three years. As I try and explain it has everything to do with who I was at that time. She is more and more conviced that those feelings are gone and that they will not come back.
Says that this can't go on forever etc. Says that I am a good person and nice to her. Just does not know why she can't get the feelings back since she felt like that way before the OM. Did you feel like this also?
Bob, Hi, I am sorry it took me a while to get back to you I have been trying to stay off line and get other things done that I have fallen behind on.
Yes I did not love my H for years before the EA, as a matter of fact I hated him. However my situation is quite exteme, I am sure you did not do the things to her that my h did to me. One thing though is so often when people are just neglected and not abused they still can fall out of love. My friend that had affairs, claimed she was miserable with her h for a long time all the same things that you and the majority of the gentlemen here are hearing. I recall my conversations with her though and yes she did talk to me about marital problems it wasnt until after the affairs that I heard her really complain of how awful he was. I think to a degree they feel guilty for their feelings they have for this other person so they validate or justify their feelings and actions with, well I didnt love my h anymore anyways and they start to only recall the bad times and not the good times. also think about how much time she spent talking to him with out having to deal with real life together so to speak. with you she had to live in reality of all challenges of life the good and the bad. with him she got to just talk and not face those daily real life problems etc. So when they talked they got to just talk about feelings and dreams and go deeper then the every day surface things. I think after couples have been together a while they start to get so caught up in the hustle and bustle of life they dont slow down to have those deep meaning ful talks anymore that they used to when getting to know each other. I think then the anger for the spouse grows because they are getting this from the EA, and they unintentionally or intentionally compare them. Well the spouse dosnt have a chance because they are in reality with them, where as the EA is more in a fantasy world kind of because they get all the good with out the reality of daily trials.
Have you two read the Five Love Languages book by Dr Gary Chapman? I think there are so many answers in there for both of you in regards to the in love feelings etc. It explains in the book how when people feel loved by the other and their love banks are full they feel in love with that person. So often what happens is people dont know how the other feels loved and they try to make them feel loved the way they personally would feel loved and sometimes its to no avail being they may have a diferent primary love language. That book really helped my H and I in this area a lot and I think it would really help you with some understanding with whats going on with you two as well.
I know its hard but try not to take your W's words personally because I dont think she really understands her feelings completely and she is just trying to be honest with you and tell you how she feels but she is extremely confused and there are many other factors other then you affecting her feelings right now. this is why we all need to "detach" from the actions and words of the other person so much right now.
Hope this helps I will check in tomorrow morning Sue
Your story sounds familiar although from the opposite dynamic. I was a raging alcoholic for the first 22 years of our 29 year marriage. Why she stuck with me through those years of insanity I will never know. The last 6 years of my addiction she had an affair with a "soul mate" and I completely understood. In fact I knew about the affair but stuffed that knowledge because I realized that if I confronted it I would probably have to confront my owm drinking. When th om's wife informed me I went into a treatment program and have been sober ever since. My w and I recommitted to our marriage.
Although I strongly suggested couseling for both of us as individuals and us a a couple she rejected this idea because she had forgiven and moved on. I really thought things were great bercause up until a year ago she told me daily what a great life we had and how wonderful things now were.
Well apparently they weren't that wonderful because she started another ea in January that continued through August with another soul mate. She told me that she wanted a divorce in June and we are now physically separated. I know she is very confused because she found another soul mate in October and that relationship continues at the present time.
It has been almost a month since she moved out and I am just now feeling that my life will get better. It has been difficult dealing with the lonliness and lack of intimacy and I still do love her. I take full responsibility for the damage that I have caused to our marriage and to this lovely lady but I cannot correct the past. I have worke on becoming a better husband and person each and every day of my recovery but she cannot forgive me. Despite previously telling me that all was forgiven, she now says that she was permanently wounded and that she can never forgive me.
I am working hard at not contacting her as each time I do I get another dose of pain. Either her boyfriend answers the phone or she will remind me of what I did to her in 1976, 1983 or pick a year.
I am reading a lot of Melody Beattie and recommend her to anybody whose spouse has an addiction of any type. Right now my wife is acting like I did when I was drinking only without the alcohol.
Your thread has a lot of great advice and insights and has helped me a great deal. I need more advice on living alone. This is the hardest part of the process I am going through.
John, thank you so much for taking the time to write to me.
I am sure you realize it but I want to say it. You got help for your problems and changed. However your W did not so there fore didnt learn a darn thing and repeated HER same mistakes. I think in our marriages the obvious victim is the non addict its so easy to hide our faults behind the outwardly abvious alcoholic and blame them for all problems. this is not the case at all. it takes two! It was very hard for me to recognize and understand my failings and contributions to the deterioration of this marriage, after all everything I did was becuase of his treatment of me right? well there were other choices to make and I chose "easier" ways, and escapes. I felt deadlocked and backed into a corner with what I could do because I believed his threats if I left him and I felt stuck and angry. I could have tried to go to a shelter but I thought thats crazy thats not for me, I grew up in a high society family I cant go to a shelter! however I was afraid to go to my parents becasue I thought what if my H loses it and hurts them trying to get me when they are protecting me I felt anyone I turned to would be put in danger. At the same time I wouldnt call the police on him he would lose his job. I trapped myself! he was sick and not thinking right, it was up to me the one that was not sick to take charge and do what was right, instead I did the classic codependent BS. I have to forgive myself and not dwell on the should haves because I didnt have the tools then, I didnt have the education but I should have sought it. When it was recomended to me to go to Al Anon and to go to AA to research and understand the disease I was angry and had the typical repsonse, I am not the one with the problem why should I go! well look at the way I was living thats why I should have went!!!
you as well didnt have tools during that time and you listend to the feed back you got from her. She is still "sick" because obviously she hasnt learned about her "codependent" behaviors that need to be changed, she is still too busy blaming you rather then looking at herself. Hey I know thats tough, and I know you know thats tough! But we dont have a choice if we want our lives to improve.
I dont have a lot of advice for you as to learning to live alone, I do know the loneliness, I grew up in it. Right now though you probably still need to do a lot of self reflection and personal inner growing. I am not saying you havent done that all ready I have watched what a battle you go through from watching my H. What I am saying now though is because of your pain and loneliness you really need to take this time to really get to know you and find your self worth and happiness inside you. then when you dont feel you "need" someone, a partner, then thats the time to find someone else to share your life with. this is my thoughts its not gospel.
you might find some comfort in my "words of wisdom from daily readers" thread.
I really like Melody Beatties books too, they were assigned to me by my personal counselor and my counselor at Betty Ford when I was there for family week. I have also found Micheles books wonderful. they are helpful even if you are not busting your divorce.
You could probably have some great insight for me as well in trying to work with my H. I have a thread in "Piecing our marriage back together" I would love to hear your thoughts when ever you have the time. there isnt many people here at the board that are familiar with addiction and understand the affects. Peter C. is aware his W is an alcoholic and he has an understanding of my side. the two of us on the oposite sides of this situation could probably gain some insights from each other that could be helpful.
It must be hard to hold things together right now for you. I know I have been working on my recovery and I am sure its not as dificult as the addicts recovery and I know chaos and hard times really make it so hard sometimes.
