Crossroads

[Kemper]

Previous posts if you are interested in detailed background information:
1st Post (31 Pages)
2nd Post (10 Pages)

Short summary of the past 16 months:
Aug, 09: ILYBNILWY from W
Aug-Nov, 09: MC without any traction, looking back I suspect it was due to involvement with OM
Dec, 10: Ultimatum given to W, she choose OM (we are just friends) and we proceeded to work on a move out agreement
Mar, 10: W and sons moved out
Mar-Jul, 09: Separation agreement in progress
Jul, 10: Separation agreement signed
Sept, 10: W secures employment, and sons start preschool
Ongoing: Limited contact or engagement throughout the course of separation, communication has mainly been focused around our sons

Current dilemma:
My W and I met for lunch in Sept so that I could give her half of my bonus based on our separation agreement. I asked her if she had ever thought about us and trying to make it work. Her response was that she thinks about it every day, however, she never once initiated a conversation around her thoughts. I let it go and never mentioned it again.

Fast forward to Oct. My W reached out to me to talk and asked if I would consider moving to another state. I stated that I had no interest in moving away from my friends and family. She then asked if I would consider moving there if we were back together. I told her that we looked into moving there when we were together and financially it didn’t make sense and beside I already stated I wasn’t interested. As an aside this state is also the state that OM lives in and I have no desire to move my family there and have my wife up and leave to be with OM. Yes an assumption on my part but an option I am not willing to entertain. She changed the subject strictly to reconciliation. I honestly don’t remember the details of the conversation but she tells me that I said I was no way interested in reconciliation. She also stated that she told me during our conversation over lunch in Sept she wasn’t going to bring it up unless she was sure because she didn’t want to hurt me or the boys again.

Then in Nov she found out I was dating and did a lot of the wrong things we see the LBS do when they find out their S is having an affair. She was threating to change custody back to what is in our separation agreement, even though we verbal changed it after she started working. She started texting me crazy and absurd things about my girlfriend, etc. Based on her texting I could see how unattractive that behavior was and reminded me of how I acted when I first found out about her A.

There have been many ups and downs since Oct. Many text/email conversations that got heated and unfortunately I took the bait. At one point I stopped and looked at what was happening. I wasn’t happy with myself or my conduct. I sat down one night and sent an apology email based on the face that I wasn’t proud or happy with the way our conversations were going and more importantly my contributions to the directions they went. The apology was not to make her feel better, I was however, because I thought it was the right thing to do for me. I let her know that I would not respond to any emails or texts where I felt I was being attacked and since then our conversations have been positive. Verbal conversations between us have always gone well throughout the course of this, so I have resorted to having more verbal conversations and fewer text/email conversations.

I know my W and felt that her talking about reconciliation was a big step for her even if she felt I blew her off. I also felt that she would not reach out again to discuss the possibility based on our previous discussion. At this point I will never know since I reached out to her on Monday. We talked on the phone about us, even though I would have rather done it in person, and at the end she asked me if I wanted to have dinner. The conversation about us wasn’t extremely serious but she did mention how big of step she felt she took by asking about reconciliation back in Oct. We went to dinner last night and it was normal chit-chat, nothing serious, just light conversation without any R discussions. We hugged and kissed at the end of the night, said good night and went on our way. This morning she sent a text saying she had a good time and thanked me. I let her know that I enjoyed myself as well. I stated that maybe we could do it again sometime. She responded that she was thinking the same thing and asked about next Wed or Thur. Waiting on a response from one of my babysitters but we are tentatively on for Wed.

Here is where I need some advice. I know for a fact that my W is still in contact with OM. A friend stated that he met OM with my W at a wedding last weekend in our home state. As previously stated, I am dating someone but feel completely at a crossroads.

Where do I go from here?

Do I just “date” my W and see how it goes? Wait for her to initiate any and all R talks? My fear with this is it is possibly cake eating on both sides.

Do I initiate a serious R talk to discuss her OM and my OW? If so do I use that conversation to set boundaries? For example, we agree to commit to the M and cut off all contact with any 3rd parties along with full transparency. Basically the last-last resort technique.

My overall concern is that I have not seen or heard anything from my W that would indicate any remorse for her actions. I have read on the boards that without remorse there really isn’t a good chance at a successful reconciliation. I am not sure if remorse comes with time or if I shouldn’t even think about anything with my W without any signs of remorse. The holiday time is upon us and I have concerns that her reaching out was due to the upcoming holidays and loss of family she might be feeling.

I have left out a ton of details to keep this post as short as possible. If you have any questions please ask and I will answer them as completely as possible. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[dbmod]

Kemper, you've been on a long hard road. What you have to ask is WHAT DO YOU WANT MORE OF?

Do I just “date” my W and see how it goes? Wait for her to initiate any and all R talks? My fear with this is it is possibly cake eating on both sides.

Don't fear what it possibly, do what gets you what you want, what brings you the relationship you want.

My overall concern is that I have not seen or heard anything from my W that would indicate any remorse for her actions. I have read on the boards that without remorse there really isn’t a good chance at a successful reconciliation. I am not sure if remorse comes with time or if I shouldn’t even think about anything with my W without any signs of remorse.

This is a great question. Remorse isn't the initial thing usually. The lack of it now is not alarming. So many folks really insist on this right away, and it just isn't going to happen right away--but it may come.

[Kemper]

Thanks for the response dbmod.

My gut reaction is to initiate a R discussion and institute the last-last resort technique with the consequences/actions that go along with it and then start dating or not based on the response from W.

However, I wanted to really weigh my options and get input from folks on this board to see which form has had better success from people that have already been down this path.

I really appreciate the input on remorse. I started out thinking that I wouldn't move in the direction of reconciliation without first seeing remorse. However, a good friend pointed out that most likely it would take time.

[Kemper]

Any input would be appreciated, even a "what are you doing" is acceptable.

[sandi2]

Well I got very confused on the time data, but I am assuming you have been over everything that could be discussed about the M, about boundaries, and especially about OM. Am I right? If so, why would this next time be different?

You said she reached out toward you in Oct. Was that after you started dating? Then she got kind of ugly about your GF in Nov?

IMHO, it would be a very long-shot that a reconciliation will come just yet. She is still seeing OM, as you pointed out...and now you have GF's feelings to consider. I personally am wondering if your W isn't feeling a big case of jealousy and wants to prove that she can still win your heart over that of another woman. She doesn't want to drop her OM, but she doesn't want OW to have you, either.

I think it would be unwise to "date" your W as long as she is obviously connected with OM. But, that's just me. I never could ride the merry-go-round without getting sick.

If you continue to GAL and let her be....then she may be ready to make some much needed decisions before playing games....and I can't help but believe that this is all it would be right now.

[Kemper]

Thank you for replying Sandi.

I have been over everything regarding M, boundaries, and OM. Honestly, I wasn't thinking this time would be any different. This is why I wanted to get the perspective from someone looking in from the outside vs. just going based on my gut.

My W reached out to me after I started dating. I cannot remember if she knew at the time. However, she did get really ugly after she found out. My first reaction was that she was jealous and just trying to "win".

I have not brought up OM to W and the fact that I know she is still with him. Thanks for your thoughts on not "dating" my W. That was the path that I felt was correct. However, based on your last comment are you also suggesting to just continue to live my life or do I state my boundaries one last time as to why I won't date?

[MHL]

Hey Kemper,

I think that if your W initiates a "date"....then go on a date with her.

If your W initiates R talk......then have a R talk with her.

If your W wants to discuss the other people in your lives.....then discuss them.

You have let her know that you are "open" to spending time with her.

You start talking about "boundaries" and employing "tatics" and "techniques", she is going to be gone.

She is assessing YOU right now......let her.

Take what you "want" out of everything right now......if this thing moves forward (which will take TIME) there will be plenty of opportunity for you to state the things you "need" ie. boundaries.

Let her drive for a while....

Cheers

[Jack_Three_Beans]

I think that if your W initiates a "date"....then go on a date with her.

If your W initiates R talk......then have a R talk with her.

If your W wants to discuss the other people in your lives.....then discuss them.

You have let her know that you are "open" to spending time with her.

I am going to suggest that you add:

"If you want to and are capable of it." at the end of each of those sentances.

[sandi2]

However, based on your last comment are you also suggesting to just continue to live my life or do I state my boundaries one last time as to why I won't date?

I don't think you should get into a "discussion" of why you won't date her, period. Not right now, anyway. If she is really interested....she will pursue. If she is assessing the situation, then why can't you be mysterious? Why can't you leave the chase to her? Do you have to tell her what you plan to do, when you'll do it, and the person you'll be with? Why couldn't you become a very interesting man who she would have to "work" to get?

I say do not state your boundaries again! Why do LBH's think their WAW forgets what the boundaries are? Believe me, if you have been over them....she'll know. She will probably "test" those boundaries if she's given the opportunity, but she knows them.

Here is what I see in a lot of LBS's, in an attempt to "fix" the problems....they try to do it through conversations. They think, "If I can tell her just one more time--then maybe it will work". I believe in some cases, there is too much talk from the LBS.

Try to picture this: Both of you are back in your days before M. Let's say you are in the dating field and there is one girl you think is pretty fine. But, this other woman you would like to spend more time with and hopefully lead to more. There is one problem, however, she is already involved with somebody else. She has shown interest and even suggested that the two of you see each other. So......how would you handle that? Let me say that differently. How would the man you were before M handle that situation?

[Coach]

Try to picture this: Both of you are back in your days before M. Let's say you are in the dating field and there is one girl you think is pretty fine. But, this other woman you would like to spend more time with and hopefully lead to more. There is one problem, however, she is already involved with somebody else. She has shown interest and even suggested that the two of you see each other. So......how would you handle that? Let me say that differently. How would the man you were before M handle that situation?

yes, please think thru that.

I am interested in the women's perspective on this. You are the woman described above, what would make you attracted to another man if your were already involved? What would turn you off?