I intend to live forever - so far, so good

[whatisis]

I'm with Drew. No gifts.

It's enabling behavior and it frustrates me to see that this type of counseling stuff gets posted here still. Why thank her for a George W. Bush "Mission Accomplished" marriage? The marriage wasn't supposed to end. Sorry to sound so gruff but what message does this send?

I agree with above. A 'softer' "wish you a Merry Xmas" or "enjoy the day" is perhaps a smidge more appropriate.

Think.

Supporting you.

FIB

Marriages do end and they are never "supposed" to but unfortunately life ain't fair! The question now for CTH is how does he build a co-operative parenting R with his ex and what kind of man does he want his children to see. A gift is not "enabling", the marriage is over. A gift is a respectful recognition of the mother of his children at Christmas. It says to the kids "this is the way adults should treat each other"...that's it. Again, a gift like a framed picture of the kids reinforces what he and his ex still have in common, that's appropriate, in my mind anyway. I dont' think a gift is essential but I certainly don't think it's a bad thing either.
Btw, I also think having different opinions expressed on this BB is a good thing, there shouldn't be a party line to tow!

[awest1217]

I will get something for H from S. S is too young to really pick out a gift for H on his own, and I feel that S should get something for his dad so I will pay for it. H will know that I bought it and thank me, but I feel it is something that I should do for S for H. I won't spend a lot, but I will talk with S and see what he thinks he should get.

We give gifts to coworkers and sometimes people we never talk to...why not the parent of our children?

[ImprovedRomeo]

How about a candy cane jello mold from the dollar store...or maybe an 8" X 10" framed photo of CTY's "package"! (and have some jingle bells dangling from it to capture the season appropriately)

LMAO! Wii, remind me to never play secret santa gift-exchange with you!

I just meant if you get a gift don't go overboard with it. It should just be from the kids so that eliminates diamond earrings and such- though cheap ones from downtown Detroit that will turn green after 3 days will work

A framed pic of the kids is a great idea but CTH's kids are old enough they can decide what they want to get for mom and CTH can help them with it. Remember you're doing it for the kids not to buy her love or to get her to think about what she did etc. You have nothing to do with it.

[NoCodeBlues]

Make it nothing more than a minor gift from the kids. There's nothing wrong with that -- as long as it in no way reflects you instead of the children.

[ClingingToHope]

Happy Thanksgiving -- I know it's tomorrow, but I'm taking the girls to eat tonight since I don't have them tomorrow so it's a two-day thing for me.

Last year, the girls got me really nice sweatshirts. They were easily $40 to $50 each -- so I know STBXW paid for them.

I didn't have the girls get her anything.

So this year I am taking them to Wisconsin Dells on Dec. 11 for a one-night stay and we will stop -- probably in Madison -- on the way back so they can shop for presents for their mom. One each. That way when I drop them off on Christmas -- they will be waking up with me in the morning -- they'll have gifts for STBXW.

I am in a good frame of mind and have been for a couple of weeks. But I wonder about why a bit.

The message at church lately has been "Two words that change everything." It started with "more than." Last week it was "press on." Two weeks ago it was "thank you" and how saying that and meaning it can change your life.

That's been my struggle. I can't thank STBXW for anything because it feels like I'm condoning the divorce. What's the legal term? It's all fruit from the same poisonous tree.

I went up and talked to someone on the prayer team. I saw him in March and he prayed with me. This time, he asked questions for a bit. He asked me what I can offer STBXW for the rest of my life. I mumbled a couple of answers. He looked at me and said, "you can offer her grace. God gives you grace for all of your sins."

In my growth group that week we talked about it and I remembered how my dad never bad-mouthed my mom, but he also never was cordial to her, they never interacted at all.

When he died, my mom did not go to his funeral.

This is a strange thought, but I realized I want STBXW to come to mine some day. And it's not just STBXW. I want to be the kind of person who when I die, people drop everything to come and see me off.

You've been to those funerals. You can tell the ones where people are coming out of obligation versus the ones where people are coming because the deceased really meant something to them.

I've been feeling better ever since. My goal now is for my ex-wife to come to my funeral -- not out of obligation but because I was something positive in her life.

Now, this is where I'm confused about some of my good feelings. Two weeks ago, the holder of our second mortgage called. Then last week, the holder of our first mortgage called. STBXW has stopped making payments.

I predicted this would happen last year and have prepared myself for it.

D8 said to me on Monday that "mommy and me are broke. She says we can barely afford the house we have. We're going to end up on the street."

I told her she wouldn't end up on the street. I said her mom is a very smart woman and will figure something out and they always have me and my house to stay. They'll never end up on the street.

She asked "can mommy come stay here, too, as friends."

I said "your mom probably would go stay with grandma for a while. You'll be fine."

Another strange comment. D11 said STBXW told her she's probably never going to date again. She's told them all along she would never remarry, now she's saying she won't even date.

I don't what to make of that. I can speculate, but that's counter productive.

I just hope my good feelings aren't tied in to the fact that apparently she's struggling. At least some of it probably is.

If she was thriving, had another man in her life (at least one she's made known), was keeping up with the payments and could take the girls places, would I be turning a corner?

We all want revenge in a small way. It's tough because I always felt I wasn't the reason for her unhappiness. I thought I was the lightning rod for all of the stresses in her life.

That's the internal struggle right now. I feel I'm getting better, but is it for the right reasons?

Again, Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

[ImprovedRomeo]

CTH, it's so nice to hear you're feeling better about things. For the immediate intents and purposes it's not important why you're feeling this way, just that you are. Try to stay in this frame of mind as long as you possibly can. The more you think about why at this time the more your mind will drift in and out of places you don't need to go right now.

You're right we all want revenge in a small way...but you my friend are the one that reminded me this: "The best revenge is to live well" which also underlines the core message i.e. focus on you, not them. There will be a time when you'll detach enough that you'll be ok with a lot of things you're currently not ok with and that's when you'll also set yourself free. I'm not there yet myself but I've felt and seen the glimpses. At times I even want to just thank her for certain things i.e. giving credit where it's due but I don't do it because I don't want her to take it as a sign that I'm kissing her @ss for some ulterior motive but she did do things I'm thankful to her for. Forgiveness is my ultimate goal when I can truly forgive her (and others that caused me pain) then I'll be free. We're a small speck of molecule in this vast universe, I'd rather live my years happy and loving those who I care about than not.

And stop thinking about death! that's just dark emotional talk! Besides, when I die all I care about is going to heaven- you guys can do what you want- I I won't be here to care one way or another...

[ImprovedRomeo]

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving CTH, hope you have a great time with D8 and D11!

[whatisis]

I went up and talked to someone on the prayer team. I saw him in March and he prayed with me. This time, he asked questions for a bit. He asked me what I can offer STBXW for the rest of my life. I mumbled a couple of answers. He looked at me and said, "you can offer her grace. God gives you grace for all of your sins."

A fantastic bit of advice! Remember, forgiveness is as much for us as it is for the forgiven. Wow, what a great gift God has given us, the ability to let go of our hurt and anger...but we have to choose it.

"In my growth group that week we talked about it and I remembered how my dad never bad-mouthed my mom, but he also never was cordial to her, they never interacted at all.

When he died, my mom did not go to his funeral."

It sounds like anger and grudges are held tightly in your family, CTH. We live what we learned but thankfully God has made it possible for us to change that in our lives. Again, we have to choose to do so...a tough task for most of us!

Have a great Thanksgiving weekend.

[faithisbelieving]

Enough indeed about death. We won't be around to know who is there anyway.

I think grace is a good thing to 'give' the X. I think better is just to be a great dad to your kids, make your CS payments and, yes, live life to the nth degree. Move on.

And, finally, the last piece of advice is that you can NEVER figure these people out so STOP trying. LOL. Analysis is best left to the shrinks. FIB

[ClingingToHope]

Brain swirling today.

I was rereading "I Do Again," a book about this couple in Texas that divorced and then remarried 7 years later. Both the husband and wife write separate sections so you can see what was going through their heads.

I remember when I bought it last year how there were so many similarities in what the wife was saying and what I was hearing from STBXW.

Last night I was struck by how angry the husband was after the divorce. I didn't really worry about that last year.

They interacted a lot. They'd see each other several times a week because they had twin daughters who were 4 when they divorced, but he was so hurt by the end of the marriage he kept everything to just about the kids.

The things he was feeling is what I'm feeling now.

He finally started to get better four years after the divorce was final -- and two years after his ex- came to him and asked to reconcile.

It's not in the book -- but the thing I wonder about is if he would have ever let the anger go if she hadn't asked to reconcile. That changes the entire dynamic.

Of course, my brain also is swirling because I've also seen STBXW twice in the past two days and likely will run into her at one of D11's plays this weekend.

Last night ... D8 was over because she's sick and we're keeping her away from D11 ... and D8 didn't like the fact her grandmother is going to watch her on Thursday, Saturday and Sunday.

So she calls STBXW and they can't hear each other well on the cell so STBXW just comes over.

I had no idea. I'm still not good at acting "as if." They talked in the living room. I went and watched TV in my room. Eventually, I wandered out there to see when this was going to end. STBXW was finishing up and said something like "see ya."

I just closed the door behind her.

I don't get how people can like nothing ever happened, that this is "normal." I know she's struggling financially -- I'm getting the phone calls and the mail -- and I know it's hurting the girls. The biggest lie in life is that "the kids will adjust, they'll be fine." Kids do adjust, but they are never fine. It's a hole that never quite gets filled.

I've been trying to repeat my mantra "The best revenge is a life well lived" and pouring over the financial plans to look at ways I'm going to get myself on better footing financially.

It's just a thinking day today. Beginning tomorrow I have a pretty busy couple of weeks. Back to work.