Thank you very much for your thoughts. I truly believe that there is not one “correct" or "black and white" answer in any of our situations and that we need to make decisions based on what is healthiest for each of our individual situations.
Alb, I appreciate you expressing your thoughts. My personal belief is that it is always good to look at situations from many different angles and I can certainly understand how the concept of an OW might not sit right with you. I am very glad that your H seems to be making progress toward coming home. That is what we all hope for.
My current path is not something I would have chosen and I am doing my best to move forward in this situation, as new information is revealed to me. If I was omniscient I would probably have made my decision about XH a long time ago....but I am not omniscient and since the bomb, a lot of new information about H/XH's character has been revealed to me slowly. Can't reveal all of my sources because some of that is private.........but I CAN say that I learned accidentally from an attorney who represented H/XH in a legal matter 10 years ago (chatted with this fellow while I was shopping for a D attorney) that he holds H/XH in high esteem because of the way he conducted himself during that difficult time. I also know from the GF of XH's BMF that H/XH was not having an affair when he dropped the bomb and didn't begin dating until 3 months after we had signed our D decree. There is more but I can't share it here.
I have always felt that H/XH was very special because of his integrity. It was only 3 weeks ago when I found out that XH wasn't telling GF#2 about our continued friendship that his integrity came into question for me. That discovery makes me feel disappointed in him, but I also recognize that he (like me) is human. .........Hey, even King David in the Bible (a great religious figure and beloved by God) committed adultery and murder......... I am making a mental note of XH’s behavior in this regard.
Originally Posted By: Truegritter
...if he is doing this to another woman what makes it safe for you to believe he has changed in a way that you might accept him back in your life as a partner?
Well certainly there would have to be a LOT of communication and acceptance of responsibility on XH's part for his share of what happened before I would accept him back. HeartsBlessing does a great job of describing this type of accountability in her posts and talks about how it is critical for reconciliation to be successful.
Originally Posted By: Mila
........there was no OW bomb while you were married...that came later after separation? Also doesn't seems to me that your H is committed to this current GF....they don't even live together...do they? and it seems to be on and off....and he hasn't really done anything that inappropriate...just played TT with his ex(GAG)?
Mila, you are correct. XH doesn't live with GF#2. XH already broke up with her once and told me that she wasn't the type of person he saw himself being with in a long-term R. XH told GF#2 that he doesn’t want to marry her so he may think that he has been clear with her that he doesn’t consider this to be a long-term committed R (that’s what my sister thinks). When I was a kid (many moons ago) I had a male roommate who wanted to marry me even though I thought I had been clear with him that I wasn’t interested in a long-term committed R. It was a time in my life when I was VERY confused about Rs (I had D’ed my first H a few years before and was trying to find my way). I know that I sent my roommate mixed signals and I feel very badly about how I hurt him. Not something I’m proud of, but I understand how that can happen when someone is confused……..I think that is why a lot of us are here……our MLCers are confused.
For the purpose of clarification, I have waited for XH to initiate a lot of our contact and social invitations since the D. Once we moved into firm friendship territory I began initiating up to 50% of the time. The ways in which I have flirted with XH are pretty tame by today’s standards: a touch on the arm, laughing and joking, brushing fuzz off of his shirt, and a little verbal jousting here and there. I haven’t stuck my tongue down his throat or anything like that, nor will I unless invited, if the time is ever right. XH has never initiated or responded in a physical way, other than hugging, which he does with all of his friends.
Sorry about the long post..........but I don't get to post all day while you all are chatting back and forth.
--last week XH's sister e-mailed me a funny/jokie e-mail titled "Husband of the Year" with a series of photos showing men being discourteous to their GFs/Ws (i.e. a man sleeping inside the tent with his bicycle while his GF/W sleeps outside on the ground....you get the idea).......X-SIL wrote at the beginning of the e-mail "GAG, Just HAD to send this to you!"
--Just received handwritten thank you note from X-SIL in mail today saying it was nice to visit last weekend. At the end she wrote: "P.S. Mr. GAG was not in a good mood Saturday. Could you tell?"...............Interesting that she would say that to me. I'd thought XH was just tired that day.
--At 4pm today received e-mail out of the blue from XH "Hey....You are improving!!! Now...."I'm really gonna have to try!!" Enjoy the weekend!"........So XH was thinking about me at the end of the work week when any person in a blissful R would be running off to meet with their significant other...........Go figure.
GREAT session with Jody this morning! She REALLY is amazing and has a lot of knowledge about MLC. Cas, I think this will be particularly interesting to you. I wanted to share the main points. WARNING.......this will be long, but it's well worth the effort:
First, we tied up loose ends from our last session:
(1) Jody asked what happened with the forensic analysis --She said said that there is some close associate of XH's who is threatened by my R with him. If it was from BMF, it was probably an act of aggression against XH as well as me. BMF was probably feeling like XH was becoming more open toward me and is threatened by it.
(2) I asked Jody how to respond to comments like XH's statement "We had some really great times together, but living together was difficult." --Jody said she would focus on the answer to the first part “Yes! We DID have some good times together. ….Remember when we did this (insert fun memory here)?…….” --She said to think about the "Motives and Behavior Chart" (I will have to try to find this). XH's statement above is a power and control behavior. The way to respond to this is to agree with the positive statement. Reminisce about a fun time together. Stay focused on the event, rather than the R…because after the convo is over, XH's memory will focus on the happy memory that we talked about rather than the negative thought in the 2nd part of his statement. The happy memory is not threatening to him…and when he goes away he can think about the memory of the positive event and ignore the negative statement. She suggested that I can introduce this concept into a convo by saying “I was thinking about something that you said awhile back about how much fun we had at (fill in the blank with a wonderful memory). I’d love to go back there! I may ask a friend to go with me. Life is too short to not go to great places!”
Then I asked her my new questions:
(3) I told Jody that I was disappointed in XH's behavior (lack of integrity) in that he has not told GF#2 about the amount of contact he and I have been having. --Jody said “Men going through MLC act in ways that is very uncharacteristic.” She has seen very good examples of men returning to their pre-MLC selves and becoming even better people after the crisis is over after they have had time to heal.
(4) Regarding the question of cake-eating, I told Jody that I was frustrated that I may be stuck in the "friend zone" with XH and asked her how to keep from staying stuck there? (BTW, Missher, you were 'right on' with your analysis of this! ) --I asked Jody if XH was cake-eating since he has GF#2 for $ex and me for fun? (Here's the money shot.) She said that in situations like this, in XH's mind the GF may provide some incentive for me to keep up my changes. XH may be afraid that if GF leaves the picture I may revert to the old behavior. (Remember that XH said “We had some really great times together, but living together was difficult”.) I have become a lot more about fun since ditching my old job, but XH may have trouble believing those changes.
Because of the things that XH said to me about GF#2, Jody thinks that GF#2 is a placeholder. She said that sometimes to up the ante, we (LBSs) need to be less available and the holidays are a credible time to do that. Even though I haven’t been initiating a lot I’ve been pretty available to this point. She said that maybe I need to beg off a TT game saying that I have plans. She said that I should be really friendly when I do that (“Hey. Next week is not going to work for me. Let’s plan on the week after.” Don’t even volunteer why.)…..and then don’t initiate contact, but let 2 weeks go by so that he misses me. Jody thinks he feels PRETTY good about himself when he is with me and he will miss that.
On the occasions when I see him, she told me to take more risks about flirting (in the past Jody has described this as being like a firefly --- sparkling intensely but for brief periods so that the WAS finds it interesting when it occurs)…..but pull back and see him less often. This is not doing 180s…..this is unabashedly strategy. She said “This is what we call arousal”. When he sees me, I should be all about building up his ego, but have the attitude that “I have my own life”. If he’s in a sexual R with GF and in an asexual R with me, then there’s nothing to compare. Also, if XH continues to see me in a platonic context, theres no reason for him to think things might be different. A lack of $exual excitement preceded the bomb so showing XH my flirtatious side will be a 180. Flirting should be frisky and playful, not seductive. Flirting should convey this attitude: “I’m having so much fun in my life. Ain’t life grand? And TT is the best!” Jody defines flirting as “when someone comes into our energy field and they feel better about themselves for being there….and they look at us and think “She’s so much fun. She’s a hoot! I love being around her”. Jody doesn’t encourage the kind of flirting that makes people wonder “What’s her motive? Where is this going?” It’s just you being really generous with who you are.
.......so a LOT of really good stuff today. I wanted to share this with you all.
Hey GAG, thank you so much for sharing Jody's advice....her views are spot on in my opinion.
Quote:
Jody said “Men going through MLC act in ways that is very uncharacteristic.” She has seen very good examples of men returning to their pre-MLC selves and becoming even better people after the crisis is over after they have had time to heal
I have no choice but to believe that, otherwise I would have to think that I was blind for 38 years...not seeing my H's true character....because right now he is so unlike the man that I thought he was all these years....
Keep going
M53 H54 D17 M33Y T38Y Bomb OW 09/09 OUT 10/09 BACK 11/09 OUT 01/10 WANTS TO R 04/10 BACK with OW 05/10 Wants to Reconcile 05/11 I said NO
Sorry I have been MIA, just started a new job last week and I have been very busy. Just a few observations.....
Originally Posted By: goodattitudegirl
BMF was probably feeling like XH was becoming more open toward me and is threatened by it.
Okay, again you are looking too hard at this book thing and furthermore you are already pinning it on BMF......remember it does not matter who the hell sent the book, right?????
There is someone out there that does not approve of your contact with your XH.....so what????? I hope that there is not any more conversation with your XH on this.....LET IT DIE!!!!! It is a recipie for problems, trust me. Additionally it is taking your focus off of where it should be..........YOU!!!!
I like everything Jody said about flirting and the theories there and I agree that the GF#2 is a place holder, a convenience of sorts. Plus your XH sounds like a "nice guy" so telling her to hit the road would likely hurt her and he is not going to do that without a good reason.
Oh and FTR, he is not doing anything to her by spending his time with you. They are not married, it does not sound like much of a committed R, so no biggie.....right???
Ask yourself this...."What is GF#2 doing while XH is with you????" Maybe GF#2 is out playing TT with some other dude??? Who knows, don't really care.
I want to remind everyone that most people in dating situations leave one partner for another and the relationships overlap. It is a fact.......accept it.
Now, back to GAG and the flirting. I went back and read your thread a week or 2 ago and I remember you talking about your first kiss with Mr. GAG. Did you not initiate???
Well guess what???.........nothing has changed.
You are going to have to initiate again. If his sexual needs are being satisfied with GF#2 and he is enjoying a more emotionally and intellectually stimulating R with you, then you need to let him know that you are a "one stop shop".
He can have it all with you. Great TT, Great Convo, Fun Times, Good Laughs,..........
and
GREAT SEX.........duh.
You want to get out of the "FRIEND ZONE", then get the hell out.
The next time you guys have one of those "nice" hugs......grab his a$$. I am sorry to sound crude but this is what is going to take. Imagine, your in the parking lot after TT and you have a hug and you reach down and "cop a feel" and then back off, bat your eyes and him and say goodnite, turn flip the hair and saunter off, leave him wanting more, or at least wondering. Let him know that the "shop is open for business".
I am going to tell you right now, this is not going to happen if you are waiting on him to make the move.
What do you have to lose ???
If he says something about it or questions you about it then you could say, "You know Mr. GAG...I still find you very attractive and......well, a girl has needs." and then let him drive for a little bit.
That response works no matter how he is feeling, meaning negative or positive.
Get it?????
If he responds and you guys get to advanced TT lessons, then you can worry about the status of the "soon to be ex-girlfriend" at that time.
Cheers
Formerly "missherlove"
Me49 XW49 M17 T19 S16 D20
Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.
in XH's mind the GF may provide some incentive for me to keep up my changes. XH may be afraid that if GF leaves the picture I may revert to the old behavior
This ^^^ was great insight. My WAS has not acknowledged any changes in me, but I feel better about my interaction with her. I could easily see her waiting to see if I'm "worthy" of returning and using OM to test these changes.
M / W: 43 D8 S6 M 10 years / T 13 years W admitted EA/PA: 10.6.09 Separated in same house 10.6.09 W moved out 2.27.10
Totally love MHL tactics, honestly the only way to push him forward is to give him a taste/reminder of what he can have..
I know Mr Rabbit didnt have a GF but when he finally came back looking for me after I went NC, he got the full on sex kitten in his face! I do think you need to kick this up a level and let him see a bit of spice wink wink!
No you dont want him to be your friend, so show/remind him what his lover used to be like.. Some times its a bit of nothing ventured nothing gained!
Jody's insight is fab, but you need to decide how long you can be just a friend!
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W 47 H 47 M 24 T 30
Once lost but now found and happily married again!
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