I intend to live forever - so far, so good

[ClingingToHope]

And I think if you were completely honest with yourself, even after all that's happened, if she showed up at your doorway begging for a second chance, you'd give it to her. And I'm not trying to blow smoke up your you-know-what or give you false hope, but what if one of you opened up a crack. What's the worst that can happen?

I asked her to marriage counseling. She said no.

I asked her to go to the marriage rebuilders class. She said she'd think about it and then never responded.

In September, 2009, we had our one good talk since we separated -- it was in response to the first of the letters I wrote to her -- and she agreed to talk on the phone once a week to see where that went. Then she never called. When I asked her, she said she only agreed to it to get me off the phone.

In December, she invited me to Christmas with her family. We spent six hours together and everyone had a great time. When leaving, she asked me to drive the dog home. Turns out she only asked because she had a party to go to and didn't want to have to drive the girls back down to my place and turn around and go back to the party. That was a major turning point for me.

Then she filed in February and went on that trip to Sturgis in August with a bunch of single motor cycle dudes.

If she somehow showed up and wanted to work on things, I hope I'd have the strength to put down conditions I think I've written about before. I hope I wouldn't just cave and be grateful she's willing to throw me a few crumbs like before. But I don't know for sure.

It's like cheating. I never cheated on STBXW. I also never was presented with the opportunity. I'd like to think that's something I wouldn't do, but until temptation stares you in the face, you don't know for sure.

Drew, every time I put myself out there, she swatted me away and each time it hurt. It took a long time, but I'm to the point where I don't want to be hurt -- by her -- anymore. She would have to come to me.

[CityGirl]

I have to disagree that last year meant nothing. IMO you stretched what was "normal" for you and really learned to do things in a new way. Listening and validating don't really seem to be your thing but you learned a new skill that will help you in all other areas of your life (professional, parenting, dating). Was that for NOTHING? If you feel it was for nothing then then the only reason you did it was to "win" your W back and that is hollow. If you did it for you (and maybe to alter the dynamic the two of you share) then it was all for SOMETHING.

You can change the dynamic but you and you along can't "build" a better R with anybody but yourself. It seems to me you see yourself as a failure because your W has not budged in her stance. If you tried and put yourself out there you didn't fail. You may have not gotten the results you wanted but is that really failing?

The thing is you are making YOUR internal battles HER obstacles by being so cold and distant. And isn't that exactly what she did to you that you found so very hurtful?

[ClingingToHope]

Desert_Rat, I can't tell by your thread where you are in the process.

I would like to get to where you are. I'm not there yet.

The last part -- saving the marriage, too??????

I don't see any chance of that. I'm trying to avoid thinking that "if I do this, this could help."

I have to operate on the assumption that there's no saving the marriage and try to figure out how to thrive with that knowledge.

[CityGirl]

What is there to save? From how you describe her she sounds like a nightmare and it sounds like the two of you really had your fair share of troubles. Why *would* you want to save that? IMO EVERYBODY (who cares to try) should not be saving their marriage but tossing it in the trash and rebuilding something new (who knows what the new would be?). Nobody wants to save something that caused them pain and strife. But you will be associated with pain and strife in your W's eyes for a long time (and vice versa of course). But what are you doing to ease that? I realize she is doing very little but what are YOU doing?

Let me ask you this... do you want your W to come back just so you can reject her because she has rejected you? I sort of get that vibe from you... if somehow that happened you would find "peace" in having the final say.

What exactly do you want? I am unclear.

[desert_rat]

If you find Virtually_Handsome you'll know where I am.

I did a lot of what you did. I went to a C. Tried to get her to MC. We actually did Retrouvaille, but she didn't have any interest in following up, and that's where the real progress could have happened.

My tenses got a little messed up. My point was that DB in the end is about saving us. Maybe we save our marriage. I didn't, but I'm ok. In the unlikely event that she showed any interest in trying again, the answer would be no. I can't think of anything she could do to convince me that we wouldn't end up going down the same path, and I've already been there.

My opinion, which is just one opinion, is that what you are doing is not helping you save yourself. And it has the potential to be damaging to your relationship with your kids.

[ClingingToHope]

CG, I really hope the things I tried last year and continue to work on with my friends and daughters helps my in the next relationship.

I don't feel so much like a failure anymore. The more I look back at our relationship the more I realize it was only going to work with a lot of work. I was willing and she wasn't -- I can speculate and have speculated as to way, but only she really knows. We are definitely not an easy match.

I'm proud of a lot of what I've done. I've built a whole new network of friends. I'm not chasing after happiness in a bottle in a bar. My dad fell to pieces -- eventually -- after my parents divorced. I know now that's not going to happen. I've got too many people looking out for me.

The last part -- being cold and distant. That's tough. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to be in the same room with her without being guarded. I've never been good at hiding my feelings. That's why my friends all like to play cards with me. In a way, this is like a poker game. I was "all-in" with her. She knows all of my hangups and secrets and ways to hurt me. I bet on her and lost and now I don't feel like being friends.

[desert_rat]

You don't have to be friends to get along. My XW uses the term friends... if she wants to look at it that way, it's ok with me. I can disagree on that point without telling her. We have to do what works.

[CityGirl]

I don't think anybody was suggesting you be friends with her. But you do have two young children that will link you both for many years to come. As your children grow older they will have new needs, new problems and new life experiences and will need both parents to participate with more depth than e-mail or texts. I guess the way I look at it is this... if you can't work with your W on small issues what in heck is going to happen when a big issue comes up with your kids?

If you can work on smaller issues now in a way that isn't so stressful you will have a better foundation to stand on when the big things come up.

IMO your W is not out to hurt you more. Sure, she is entitled but what WAS isn't? I doubt she sits up at night trying to think of ways to press your buttons or expose your secrets or use your hangups to hurt you more.

I am not excusing her behavior. Just don't give her anymore fuel.

[ImprovedRomeo]

CTH, can you clue me in on what the real issue is that we're discussing? the last few posts have been all over the map from saving the marriage to the rings to the kids to communication to being more open to STBXW's ideas. I'll be back later tonight but before I offer my suggestions I'd like to have a clear understanding of what the actual issue is.

[ClingingToHope]

I posted about a couple things going on at D8's school that STBXW didn't notify me about and it kind of evolved into a much larger discussion.

It starts on page 20.

I could get another one going. For a long time I've wondered what I'll do on the day the D is final. I've settled on -- at least for now -- on actually going to court to see the gavel come down on 14 years then going to church for the day to write an insanely long letter to STBXW, pour out everything, then lock the letter up in the safety deposit box with the wedding rings.

My mind is wandering a lot lately. I think it's because I've been insanely busy with work and the move the last two weeks and now -- I'm not. I can settle back in.

I also realize I used the word insane twice in the past two paragraphs -- Freudian slip?