LOL! Yes, but I went to bed tight after that post. Step one of my back-to-basics self care was getting some sleep!
On a different note, last night H also brought by a b-day gift from younger SIL - a Wonder Woman lunch box. Very cool. I like Wonder Woman - I even have a tatoo of the logo. D3 sees it, points to the picture of Wonder Woman, and asks "Is that you, mommy?" I told her, "yes, that is your mommy."
I love my tatoo, but people rarely know what it is since it is just the logo. I also have a WW t-shirt, and so does D3. Last time we went camping she wore her WW shirt and a cape almost the whole time.
This morning I got a good morning call today at 7:30. D3 sounded happy, and so did H. He told her that she would see me today and that he would see me tomorrow. Also, we seemed to be saying “I love you” over D3’s head again. Hmmmmm. Is he looking to connect? Who knows.
Not sure what he is thinking, so I cannot assume he is ready to come home. I need to keep my expectations low, keep up with basic self-care, and NEVER pursue. It feels like he keeps coming back to circling and watching me to see what I am doing.
My checklist for today… 1. Get some sleep – check! 2. Take my B vitamins – check! 3. Eat – check! 4. Stay focused at work – check! 5. Continue working on the finances 6. Take my girl to the library for story time 7. Get some sleep tonight
I've been out of touch for a while so I'm catching up with your thread.
I'm glad to hear this site is helpful and that you find it supportive. It's so hard - sometimes - not to over-pursue, the deadliest of all DB sins! And having the extra support can make a difference when you are trying to avoid that.
And as one of your other contributors noted, you get to hear different points of view. I hope mine is helpful.
Continuing with theme from last post - it's so hard not to pursue. So having goals and plans, a sense of purpose, has got to help. Remember, it takes a long time for your relationship dynamics to get to the crisis point. It takes a while to turn them around. But as I read the small signs, I think you are getting there, giving yourself a chance. I hope you're feeling the same way.
Thanks, OYS2. All the support here has helped me regain my focus. I have a hard time not pursuing when things with my H start to improve.
I managed to do everything on my list for tonight so far, except get some sleep. Mostly because D3 is still fighting bedtime. Still have to change all the cat boxes before I can go to sleep too.
Just wanted to encourage you to pull WAY back now. Pursuit has backfired on you repeatedly. Your "action plan" is SIMPLE. It's not easy, I know. But it is NOT complicated. Stop the pursuit. Just stop it. GAL and be a woman only a fool would leave. What were you like when you dated? Did you chase him even when he said he needed space? Good grief, we know that's not true.
Originally Posted By: hope for zen
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This morning I got a good morning call today at 7:30. D3 sounded happy, and so did H. He told her that she would see me today and that he would see me tomorrow. Also, we seemed to be saying “I love you” over D3’s head again. Hmmmmm. Is he looking to connect? Who knows.
No one knows what he feels or thinks. It's a waste of time to mind read. But IF he is looking to reconnect, wouldn't you want something with clarity? Commitment? Proof of his certainty? Would you really really be alright with him sending out ambiguous probes to check to see if you're still waiting IF THAT'S IT AT ALL...b/c it might well be what your h thinks is a gesture of civility to assuage his guilt. HIs tokens of kindness should NOT be construed as more than that or you'll set yourself up for rejection. If he wants back in, he will be sure of it and so will you.
Not sure what he is thinking, so I cannot assume he is ready to come home. I need to keep my expectations low, keep up with basic self-care, and NEVER pursue. It feels like he keeps coming back to circling and watching me to see what I am doing.
Of course you cannot assume he is ready to come home. He'll tell you that. Let me repeat that for emphasis, HE'LL TELL YOU IF HE'S READY TO COME HOME...this is not the guessing game you are making it out to be. Frankly if it were me, I'd plan my life as if my h were NOT coming home. And I'd make the plan with details of how GOOD and happy my life would still be. Yes I know that's terrifying to you. But you KNOW it's possible and you know he's uncertain and you know he's with OW and you know he's pulling back and forth and MAYBE checking on you...so what do you want him to see if he's checking in? You really want him to see you still waiting there, offering up all your needs and pain? As if no other man would find you a great catch?
You have to bring something to the table and you have to recall that men like the hunt. HIgh school? Sure it is. Welcome to the real world. We all need reminding now and then, that our spouses are good catches. Don't be so dang available and start being a little mysterious. What 180's are you doing? Can you do them for 100 days? My gut tells me your 180's have not exceeded 3 days. Am I far off? Most of the contacts you have had with your h are pursuit from what I can see. I mean, almost ALL of them.
My checklist for today…
1. Get some sleep – check! 2. Take my B vitamins – check! 3. Eat – check! 4. Stay focused at work – check! 5. Continue working on the finances 6. Take my girl to the library for story time 7. Get some sleep tonight
May I suggest a few other things b/c you clearly have the stated claim to "DO" something, even when it's not advisable. Per my heroic DB coach, here's what I can pass on:
1) Listen like a lover. That means validate, affirm, and do not pass judgement or express any disapproval. This assumes the discussion is NOT about OW or other R talk. Just work issues, family things, hobbies, SAFE topics that make him feel comfortable discussing SOME things with you and later building on it. ("LATER", not next week) 2) Lose the anger, in front of him. Stay calm at all times in front of him. If you fuel the negatives he used to justify leaving, you'll simply validate his reasons for leaving. That means you have to:
3) Contrast the negatives with Postives. If he says you're always late (and therefore sloppy) be more punctual. If he says you're too punctual b/c you're rigid, than be more flexible. NONE of these changes should be made unless you think they are valid.
3) Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he does. Even if minimal, you need to affirm him. IT's VERY hard to do when they've failed so many other ways. But what does not work is trying to guilt him or asking the "how could you do this" or "Why are you hurting us?" types of questions. Those questions force him to feel defensive. Basically by questioning his choices, you force him to defend the choices.
4) Lose the "parental voice" that guilts him or says "Why? Why?" Etc...That parental voice shuts out his inner voice. He needs time to reflect on his choices and figure out what he really wants.
5) When you are in contact w/h, Remember the GAL activities. Be upbeat, warm, lovable, BUSY with your new life, and moving along. He has to have something to miss to miss you! I thought allowing him in the family home ANYTIME he wants for computer use, was absurd. It's total pursuit and no boundary setting. End the conversatons first, go out with SOME new people. Make plans for something that does not involve him or require him. Show your happiness without him. That matters. It really does. You'll need it if things don't work out AND you'll need it even if he does come back. You'll bring more to the table.
When I took my kids to Italy for our 25th wedding anniversary b/c h was out on his tundra place, it was a wonderful trip. 2 things happened. Most importantly, the kids and I had a great time as a family, without h. It was not impossible. As a military veteran, we know families can have fun with a parent "missing" so we reminded ourselves that we were still intact, still having laughs, and felt great optimism about my future.
The other benefit of the trip was only learned much later. H told me that HE was preoccupied about our trip the whole time, and how HE was not there with us. IOW What HE was missing. We also had very little contact with h while away, which was GREAT FOR ME b/c of the distance and time.THere were no reminders of him. Very stimulating environment too. So are you including your h in EVERY move of the baby? Why not let him miss something..."OH yesterday D3 has her FIRST dance at the preschool and it was SO cute...If you want, maybe I can send you a picture..." Not to hurt him but to give him seomthing to miss. This is not to be punitive. But let him miss out b/c he's gone and he IS missing out.
Remember that the "lose the anger" goal is partly so that your h can imagine returning home without you making him climb a mountain too high or hold his A over his head the rest of his life. That's a big obstacle for many LBSers. Hence the phrase, Keep the Road Home Paved and Smooth....but that's not doormat stuff nor is it cake eating.
So far, my guess is your approach has allowed him to cake eat a lot. It's a tough balance. Good luck. You are in the right place. Glad you ask before you email. Or call....I suggest you keep that up so you avoid the mistakes you'll regret. Every time you pursue you have regroup and restart all over AND you push him farther away. Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you for the advice. I need it reinforced right now that pursuit is DB suicide right now. I am going to print out your post and read it a few more times today.
I will keep posting any emails here before I send. As far as calls, the only time I call right now is to tell my daughter goodnight when he has her for an overnight or if she wants to talk to him. Even when he calls, I am almost always the one to end the conversation.
I am doing a good job with the list you posted from your DB coach, and I think that is the main reason H is cycling back around. My problem right now is that you are right that my 180s & GAL haven't "sunk in" all that deep. I am taking steps, but I am not there yet. I am afraid that if H came back now, things wouldn't work. I'm not done with me, and I am prety sure H is not done with his crisis either.
You asked the question: “What were you like when you dated?” I was strong. I was independent. I was ready to have fun and live my own life. I was brutally honest. I had just ended an abusive relationship and I didn’t want to be with him or depend on him for anything. I not only didn’t pursue, I pushed him away.
I want to be that person again.
How do I get there?
The first step is to stop all pursuing of H. It takes too much time and energy from me and my girl.
1. No more pictures of H on FB. This is for my friends and family now. He can look or not look if he chooses. 2. No more offers for him to use the house when I am not there. It is fine with me if he does come by, but I don’t need to offer. 3. No more offering the computer for him to use. If he needs it he can ask. I prefer to keep my privacy anyway. 4. Don’t offer any more ‘help’ with anything. If it doesn’t affect me or my daughter, then let it go. 5. Text and email only information that he needs to know or that I need an answer for. 6. Get him to set a schedule for overnights and stick to it. 7. Start holiday gifts now. Don’t ask for input. These will be from the “********” family, whoever that may include. BTW, D3 & I qualify as a family all on our own. 8. Start holiday preparations without him. Don’t put our holiday on hold for him.
True, honest DETACHMENT for me meant that I finally envisioned life without h, AND it being actually happy. First it began as me admitting life without h would not be a total nightmare. THEN... STEP 1) In fact, I began to see the upside. THere were many positives when I sat down and got REALLY objective about it. My h was not perfect. Some of his flaws, I could do without seeing every day.
I saw a L and (knowledge is power) realized I would not be in the streets penniless if we divorced. Yes life would change and yes I'd have a lower standard of living. I'd have to get a new job and MAYBE downsize the house, down the road, but ALL of that was manageable. So I knew I'd survive. I'd have the kids most of the time. So my worst fears subsided.
Step 2) Then I began to realize that for the first time maybe EVER, we would not have to move for h's career. I could live anywhere I wanted. This was very freeing. When I looked at jobs out of state or out of country, I got excited. I could teach overseas for a year and d13 was up for it. (H noticed some of the paperwork but said nothing).
Step 3) acted as if we'd be friendly enough, but was moving along and going out with new friends. Wore a new perfume that didn't remind me of h or anything from the past. Got a few new outfits that were a different look for me. Began working out more and looking my best.
I BEGAN TO FEEL HAPPIER ABOUT MY LIFE AND IT SHOWED. MY children saw it, and that helped THEM to look at things with a more positive outlook. When life throws us curveballs, we adjust our grip on the bat or our batting stance, perhaps, but we keep swinging.
I truly think when I began real detachment, h feared losing me and to an extent, losing our children. Certainly the family picture was changing and HE was not in the same photos anymore. It is when I changed, that I think h began to. It took months from the time I detached, really, before I noticed h's changes but he was quite obvious and clear when he wanted back in. Daily calls, friendlier, complimentary. ANd he came out and asked for us to be together again. He said "I'm begging you", etc. He said he wanted to be the husband I "deserved" etc. There was no ambiguity.
I know for most couples here that won't happen and I'm fortunate. But I also know that although there are no guarantees about what works, there are a few guarantees about what will blow your chances.
Pursuit and LBSers trying to guilt a WAS into returning, are the 2 biggest mistakes I see made. I did both of them for far too long. Finally I realized that right or wrong, my approach was NOT working. Piecing is not easy but when that time comes, you can address it. For now, you want to get your h to notice he's losing you and that he needs to do some real thinking about what that means to him. If he decides he wants back in b/c he fears losing you, he'll be clear about it. You naturally fear that if he really reflects on things, he won't choose to return. That could happen no matter what you do. But it will certainly happen if you continue doing what does not work. So far, there has not been much real cost to his choice yet. D3 cries for you, they call you. You "help out' so much he has no idea what being a single dad is like for more than one night of her being sick.
Do not misinterpret that statement to mean you should punish him. My DB coach said "It's not the LBSers job to punish or 'teach WAS a lesson'. Life will give them the consequences if the LBSer gets out of the way." I just think you've pursued enough. He KNOWS you love him. That won't change b/c you start looking good and a little mysterious and take a class once a week (yes you can get a sitter for ONE night a week for your "new GAL activity or hobby) But please leave him alone when he has D3. The bonding time for them is important no matter what happens AND you interfere with it AND it's pursuit. Enough said.
And don't kid yourself into thinking if you detach he'll give up or think you have. Please. That's a bit of a lie and an excuse for the LBSer to keep pursuing out of desparation to "do something." You have plenty to do! IT's called detach and GAL! THe problem is that SO FAR, you'd rather do what you know than try a new approach. You are overdue for a new approach....
And give it 100 days (yes a hundred) b/c that's a manageable amount of time you can mark off and it's enough time PERHAPS to monitor for changes. Til then, don't read into anything that isn't crystal clear. 100 days is NOT that long but it's incredible how short the time span is for many on this site. Look at the SUCCESS stories of faithfulh, brandnewday, sandi2 and mine. We're talking a lot longer than a few months but I'm just saying give it 100 days of CONSISTENTLY NEW BEHAVIOR on your end, before you monitor at all. Then assess whether you can do another 100 days b/c if you think there's a change at all, or nothing is worse, then keep it going another 100 days. Mind you, though our success stories took a long time by your standards, we were not sitting around waiting and examining each contact, after awhile, we realized we could not put our lives on hold anymore. We detached and began to move on, without giving up...and here we are. There are great articles on Detachment here on this site. Please read them.
Others may disagree, and I could be wrong, but I'd avoid the fake "ILYs" with the d3 if you can do it without being rude. It's a weird game, it involves her in an odd way. But mainly it strikes me as a way of him making sure you're still waiting for him without him having to choose...at some point, his not choosing, IS a choice. Maybe you can say it in the third person like "D3 loves her daddy" rather than you saying you love him in her voice. Make sense?
One last thing, what do you think your role in all this was? I am not lookiing to blame. I am looking to see what changes would be made if you were to reconcile. You said you both are working on yourselves.
Your h will have to know that m to you in the future, would be better in some ways than it was. (Or why would he choose to return?) IT has to be more than "Oh crap, I'll have the A hanging over my head forever and she's still doing the things I found so painful, so what's the point?" And in fairness, YOU have to know the m would be better on his end too. He'll need to rebuild trust too. But for now, we can only address what you are doing. So, what are YOU doing or working on that would mean marrying you now would be better than before?
Good luck, 99 more days to go.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
