Quote: Yes you are right. I am not sure what the right thing to do is anymore. I need time to think about all of your suggestions. Please understand that I am angry I wanted to love this woman and I am angry that all of this [censored] had to happen just to get her to the place where she is today. It just seems so unfair for everyone. As for the friend that is over it was never physical but I was angry because she was right about the emotional thing and I didn't want to face it and have to give up one more thing in my life for my wife. I am emotionally fatigued and need time and space to think. I can not make any more mistakes I hope you understand that. I live with the pain of leaving my family every single day and when I see her happy and beautiful and being encouraging it infuriates me because it should have been me she changed for so many years ago.
AmyC: You started the healing process today, FF. That's a hard place to get to. Many don't. Their anger consumes them and they are lost in the world. But you broke through your anger today. I know you need some time to process all this. We'll all be here for you if you decide to come back. You never have to accept that old marriage again. But you can begin a new, better one, with this new woman your wife has become.
_________________________ slowly 01/20/06 05:10 AM
Hello Finally - I have no advice, just a big thank you for posting here. It helps so many of us understand the other perspective. Wishing you enlightenment on this journey. Slowly
_________________________ lmdi99 01/20/06 08:41 AM
I am not sure what the right thing to do is anymore. I think a lot of us here struggle with this as well...I know that i do. The logical side of me says to make one decision, while the emotional side of me says to make another decision...somewhere, there has to be a compromise b/w the 2...that's the hard part. One of the things that is often said here is that you will know what is right for you when the time is right. You seem to be saying that you are ambivalent about what to do. My H has been the same way. And something that i have always told myself, and told my H, was that pride is your worst enemy. Don't not go back to your W b/c of your ego. Listen to what your heart is saying to you. Why your W changed and when she did it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that she changed. And i can guarantee you that she is just as scared as you that the changes won't last. But, sometimes you just need to have faith and to believe in the love that brought you 2 together in the first place. There are a million reasons why she didn't change when you begged her to. But, what difference does it make what path she took, as long as she got to the same destination?
Come back here often and seek advice from others. You will probably also learn a lot by reading about other people's situations. Wishing you well.
_________________________ Delboy 01/20/06 09:42 AM
Hi Finally_free, I would just like to reply to your quote: Maybe your husband should have told you what he really thought of you instead of cowering because he was afraid of hurting your feelings, then you wouldn't be in this position now End of quote. My WAW wrote this in a notebook so she could take with her to counselling sessions just before she left us and moved in with her OM. Del wears his heart on his sleeve and very often I felt uncomfortable in his company I never told him as I didn't want to hurt his feelings. My wife comes from a very passive family and I think your behaviour at times seems to me to be passive. Love Delboy
_________________________ shocked_and_alone 01/20/06 10:53 AM
I am just another LBS I will not say that you could be my H. While there are some similar issues, I don’t see my H in you. The similar issues, they are the same in all M. Finances, kids, control. Atrraction, sex. Nothing special there every M has at least one of those. I don’t expect that you are going to put much credence in my word, but I do wish you the best, and I am going to give you my 2 cents. To start with (based upon your references to pity party and LBS lack of fault and shock attitude) I am going to quote from my first post. My H moved out 8/10/05 ____________________ (9/22/05) Is there hope. I am constantly sick to my stomach. After my H left, one day I said "you're amazing" he got all quiet and asked "why now" all I could say was you've been amazing all along, I just forgot to tell you. I spent the first 2 years of our marriage just trying to make ends meet. I spent the next three opressinging him to the point that he walked out. Yes He walked out to the OW, but I know that I in essence pushed him there. I have three small sons at home, twins, 2 1/2 and a 11 month old. I had no idea that I had done so much damage that he could just quit without notice. I had no idea that anybody would quit without notice.
I realize more than you know, most LBS do. Enough about me for now. I know that you have heard from lots about your comments so this may just annoy you if for no other reason than that I seem to be rehashing. ______________________ Do you know how unhappy my wife has made me for all of these years? She has tried to control my every move, wants to know where I am going and what I am doing and who I am doing it with. What the hell is it any of her business? Why can't I just have a life anymore? ______________________ No we don’t know, we don’t know you, we don’t know your W. Control [censored], sorry what business is it of hers, all depends was this b4 or after you moved out. _________________________________ I never counted, my opinion never mattered, my feelings were crushed every day and she made me feel like I was the butler not a husband. She suddenly loves me now, wants to work it out, want to see a therapist of some kind. She has now found God again, more manipulation. ______________________________ Sorry about your stich finding God is not manipulation. Claiming and not following through maybe. ____________________ I will admit that she has made some major changes but I doubt the sincerity of them as she could have made these changes years ago when I asked her to. I think it is more manipulation. __________________ more on how you asked later, but you moving out was a slap in the face, causes lots of genuine changes in LBS’s . It is your prerogative to consider it manipulation. Maybe it is maybe it isn’t. ______________________ I love my kids, but staying in a marriage for the sake of the kids isn't right either. _______________________ Yep absolutely right. But the kids are an excellent reason to try, show courage and demonstrate love and commitment, if it doesn’t work, so be it, either way by trying you are teaching your kids a valuable lesson and demonstrating you love for them, its an ego boost for them that they may not even realize for years to come. Its planting seeds for mature healthy adults. _______________________ she changed after the kids came and put them first. __________________ That happens, even if neither partner expects it. Wow, and the rut just grows without anyone realizing how bad it has gotten.
____________________ The sex was boring, and she gained like 30 pounds which made her ugly. She blamed the weight on the antidepressants, I think she was just too lazy to excercise. She was always interfering in everything I did. _________________ Ok you shouldn’t be surprised that this offends people I can’t comment on the drugs correlation to weight, but 1) antidepressants says to me that she had something going on that you needed to support her through and 2) weight doesn’t change the beauty that God gave each of us. I am sure that I am ugly by most standards. I gained 60 pounds, I blame it on the twins. __________________ Wanting to read all of the cell phone bills and ask about the calls to my friend, so what, she didn't care about me. _____________ sounds like you were at home still when you were engaging in this emotional affair, if so, she had every right to ask, you just thought that she didn’t b/c you decided it was over already. _______________ There is no hope for this marriage because if I let my guard down she will start again, as it took me years to get the courage to leave I can't go back now. _____________________ I don’t know about hope for your M It doesn’t take courage to run, it takes courage to stand and fight, and it takes far more courage to say, I don’t know if this will work but I am willing to give it one more try (see above comments re: kids) _______________________ I am sure they will eventually see the truth that their mother pushed me out of the marriage with her control and anger issues. __________________________ Later in this thread you reference “your truth” you have a truth, your W has a truth, your kids will have their own truth. ________________________ She took care of everything and I let her which was my mistake, but she wouldn't ever let go of the steering wheel when it was time to hand it over. ______________________ How did she know that it was time to hand it over did you graduate from some financial flops anonymous class? _____________________________ Sometimes I get so frustrated and even when I know she hasn't done anything wrong I want to prove that she is still the same manipulative B****h she has always been so I push her buttons on purpose. I think she is catching on so she doesn't always react anymore, more manipulation to get me upset even more. _______________________ Ok this is cute, you get frustrate, you MANIPULATE the situation, b/c your MANIPULATION doesn’t get you the result that you want, you claim that she is manipulating. Do you see the poor logic here? ______________________ She will not let go of me, _______________________ I just want to save this quote for reference.— see next quote. ____________________________ Besides if she cared why doesn't she ever call me why do I have to be the one to make all of the calls? She used to call non stop, now I never hear from her unless it is about the kids. _____________________ sounds like she let go. _______________________ People just don't change like that, _____________________________ I’ll accept that for now _______________________ I am a much better person now, __________________________ Wait a minute people just don’t change like that. __________________________ Besides if I went back to her if I took a chance she would think she was right and that would make me weak again, and I will not be that man again. ________________________ I don’t know if she would think that she was right, That would be up to you and your ability to politely be strong enough to address the issue and let her know where you stand. NOT WEAK, very courageous. See above. __________________________ Maybe some of you left behind spouses don't get it. There is a reason we left you, do you ever look at yourselves and your own actions or just have continual pity parties about how badly you were treated. Stop acting like you didn't see this coming. ______________________ we’re not acting, we are out here setting our souls for public display and trying to learn. Yep there are reasons, and I am here “trying to see all that I did” that was the name of my first thread _____________________________ It was my wifes job to take care of everything in the house. She had the luxury of staying home with the children, that was not the issue. _________________ Some times that’s a luxury, others it’s a curse. If was not an issue, why the next quote. _____________________ When she offered to get a job it was always something stupid like in a store as a clerk or at Target. My wife is not stupid, but never amounted to anything other then a housewife. _____________________ Raising kids is the most important job in the world. There may have been reasons for a clerk at target job, antidepressants? Schedule would work with taking care of kids? Low self esteem? She just plain liked it. By the way did you think that some people on this board might be clerk’s at Target? ___________________________ She spent the money on the kids and the house, never bought nice things to make herself look good, hardly wore make up, just a real frump. __________________________ This is the only time that I will say that you have described me. God made me who I am, I don’t wear make up. DO YOU. I do not belive that gender should create a dbl standard. ______________________ I work with beautiful women and my wife was an embarassment to me. My words were not abusive, but she didn't get it. I would end up yelling at her because she refused to listen to me. I begged her to change and she refused to. __________________ Your embarrassment is to your disgrace. Yelling at your W, could very well be construed as abusive. __________________ I would have liked to show her off but I was ashamed of how she looked. She used to be beautiful and sexy and she let herself go. __________________ Wow ______________- I always apologized when she would start crying and I did feel bad for her, but she should have taken a hint. I thought by telling her that I found her unattractive she would want to go to the gym and make an effort, and yes she did go, but not consistently like I did. We could have worked out together, but she said she was embarassed to do that in front of me, I did try. She started covering herself up, and never let me see her body anymore because she said I made her feel ugly. That was not my intent. I will admit I probably handled that the wrong way she was never really that fat, but I wanted her to look like she did before. I will apologize for that I will admit when I am wrong. ___________________ I would cover myself up to if I was with someone who yelled at me that I was not attractive, I would definitely be embarrassed to show my body or do things in front of that person. _____________________ But I can not undo what I have done I have come too far now and made a life for myself without her in it. I also know she will throw this in my face for the rest of my life and that is not how I want to live anymore. ________________ Can’t undo what you done, but you can improve your future, see courage above. Your predicting the future here. Pointing this out for future reference. _____________ I will admit the changes happened a little too late and that makes me angry wasn't I important enough to change for? ____________________ Maybe, just maybe you were/are important enough to change for. Here are your options for what I see in your suggestions. --She’s doing all this stuff just to manipulate — b/c your important enough ---She’s doing all this stuff b/c you leaving was her slap in the face and she took a good look in the mirror about what was wrong on her part with the M — IE made the changes that she sees that she should have during the M which may have kept the M in tact– b/c your important enough –She’s doing all this stuff just to get under your skin– b/c your important enough – She’s doing all this stuff b/c she let go and is moving on check your odds. ____________________ I wasn't always like that with my wife but she would push and push until I would finally explode. She was the strong one and the only way for me to be stronger was to rip her apart it was the only way to get her to shut her mouth. I have said some bad things to her and she knows I only said them in anger. Now she doesn't respond anymore but I am sure she is seething underneath. _____________________ “rip her apart” Hmmm I’ll just say that this is not good. As to the rest of this reference back to my comment about you manipulating ______________________________ I do admit she wanted us to go to councelling together but I knew it would be another way for her to bash me. She went by herself. __________________ predict the future again _______________________ I would return to the marriage if I knew that her changes were real but I have known this woman for a very long time and I doubt she can keep up the act for too much longer. _______________________ can’t predict, can predict _______________________ I know the concept of this board and I too hate the idea of divorce but I wanted someone to understand that sometimes there are just too many problems to overcome. I am not a bad person I am a realist. __________________ I am a realist too. I just have hopes and dreams and goals that my H doesn’t currently share. Sometimes there are too many problems to overcome. Until you take the problems face on and trying to resolve them, you will never know anything but your prediction. __________________ Look I know she has made great strides to change the way she does things and I do enjoy her more but I have seen her when pushed go back to the old ways. I admit I do push her just to see what she will do. That is wrong but I have to know just how sincere she really is. ______________ predicting and manipulation __________________ This woman really destroyed me and IF I were to ever consider changing my mind I would need a guarantee and that my friend is impossible because nobody can do that. _________________ no offense you’ve been predicting throughout this thread _______________________ My wife was better then me at the finances and she did ask me to help her but it really wasn't my thing. ________________ your waffling on this, its ok, clarity happens. ________________ BUT why should I need to ask her for money when I was the one working? I walked around without any money and needed her permission to use the ATM. She decided who got what and how the money was spent. Yes she always gave me what I needed and paid all of the bills there was always food in the house and those things were good but I was not a child. ________________ I will not say that this was good, but how you handled it WITH her is the thing. How did you tell her that it was her job, what defined her job. __________________ I know she was tired and I should have asked about her day but I really didn't want to hear about it. I am being honest I really didn't care to know about this one or that one. I wanted to talk about me and my day.
Are you just a me kind of guy or was it that you both fell into a rut. _______________ If you do not like my truth that is your problem. ____________________ Here’ that “my truth comment” Check Bartlet’s familiar quotations–APPREARANCES OF THE MIND ARE OF 4 KINDS. ___________ As for my wife yes she has made changes but I do not know the sincerity of them. _____________ If you want you can explore the sincerity with her. _____________ Maybe he thought you looked like a fat pig also, but didn't have the balls to say so so he put up with it but inside thinking the same things I did. ______________ Calling someone a fat big does not take balls. _____________________ My wife used to call non stop to the point of harrassment. I could never get any peace. Now she stopped calling which I find to be manipulative because all of the effort is now put on me. __________________ manipulative because the effort is on you???? what effort. I am not being glib, honestly I want to know what effort you are putting in and why. ___________ _______________ Jerk? Me? I think not sweetie. You and the pig lady want to believe that I am a jerk becaue I speak my mind. I got to this place because I was never able to speak my mind before. __________________ You are venting, sorry that you got called a jerk, but pig lady is just such a wonderfully kind, nice guy level headed come back isn’t it. You have had a lot bottled up, we see that, we would love to help you, lashing out is not a solution, but we all realize that sometimes we just have to do it. Others may look at that as having a pity party. _______________
If you were me how would you approach my wife? How would you want me to treat her now after a year has passed and I have let all of this bitterness fester inside of me? How would I be able to tell her that I am the one who can't let go and all of the things I told her to do with her life she has done? IF I were to tuck my tail between my legs and go home she would again have the upper hand and remind me that I was the one who screwed up. Wouldn't it mean admitting defeat? _________________ No it would mean showing the greatest strength of your life. It would mean that you would have to take it slow, learn to love trust and respect again, and that you would have to stand up everyday be strong and not let the pattern be re-created. ____________________________ She already told me that my leaving her was a wake up call and that she would do anything for another chance. So what is your point? She told me that she was sorry she wrote letters emails and begged but I had already had enough. My wife admitted that she was a bad wife and promised to make things good again. IF I were to admit that yes she has made many changes and has kept her word how do I know that she isn't just doing it prove a point herself? Isn't what she is doing another form of control and manipulation? __________________ No honestly it is not. I know that I don’t know her or you, but you say that you know that she got the wake up call, that she has changed that she wants you back. What I don’t think that you realize is that if she still wants you YOU ARE IN CONTROL. The job of the LBS is to sit and wait fo the WAS to bring up the R at the pace of the WAS. We know that you are leery, and pressure from us only pushes you away. YOU ARE LEADING A DANCE, you are in control. And we are letting you. ______________________ Yes you are right. I am not sure what the right thing to do is anymore. I need time to think about all of your suggestions. Please understand that I am angry I wanted to love this woman and I am angry that all of this [censored] had to happen just to get her to the place where she is today. It just seems so unfair for everyone. ________________ I knew that you were here for a purpose, I have said that I just didn’t know if the purpose included me. YES I AM FULL OF CONCEIT. I’ve been watching though. This statement hit me. I didn’t want to play with the angry boy. I didn’t ant to fuel. I may make you angry over and over, but this is the statement that made me jump on board. _________________ As for the friend that is over it was never physical but I was angry because she was right about the emotional thing and I didn't want to face it and have to give up one more thing in my life for my wife. _____________ this is the first time that this is the first time that I have read this statement, I quit reading at the above and just printed your 57 page thread. BRAVO– showing courage here too now. So, we are here, to help and support you and oh my how much we don’t want you to hurt anymore. Think, stick it out If you agree to stop calling names so will we (RIGHT?) We do want to help.
_________________________ happy_again 01/20/06 11:35 AM
So how would I take steps forward without giving her false hope? I do not want to hurt her but I am still so unsure. I did call my kids last night and asked to speak to my wife. She seemed really happy to hear from me, maybe too happy and it scared me. I don't want to get sucked back in again. But it was nice to have someone ask me about my day and my job and even ask me what I ate for dinner. I miss that part of her. I will admit that she didn't make any of her usual suggestions about my life and she seemed interested in what I had to say. I had to end the call I suddenly got to feeling really anxious and made an excuse to get off of the phone. I lay awake all night thinking of my family and my wife and how much we have hurt each other in different ways. I pictured her face when I once ripped her to shreds as she was trying to apologize to me, that look still haunts me. I pictured her face when she tried to convince me to have sex with her and how I turned her down flat telling her that I would never touch her again, and how she repulsed me. She sobbed like a baby and I just laughed at her and left. I just don't see how we can get past this point.
False hope is when you tell your kid the dog got "hurt" by a car, when he's already dead. You wouldn't be thinking of going back if you had NO hope. And if you have some hope, then she can too. That's OK. Hope is not a guarantee. Take the smallest possible next step. You've already asked to talk to her on the phone. The next step would be to be able to end the conversation without panicking. To do this, think of your exit line before you call. Or call 6 minutes before you have to go somewhere. After that, don't jump right to asking for a date. The kids are a great common ground. Go to their school and sports events, and talk to your wife when you see her there. No heavy discussion. Sit with her and the other kids on the bleachers. After that you can plan a family outing together, whatever fun stuff you all like to do. Or, if you're worried about the kids' expectations, you can go on a date without her telling the kids who's she's with. Think in advance before each meeting about what level of physical contact you are comfortable with at that point. If she starts going too fast, don't rebuff her. Just explain that you want to take it slow. On the other hand, don't assume that just because she tried to seduce you before, she's available now. You don't have to apologize for anything, or spill your guts to her. She's probably going to be biting her tongue trying not to ask "relationship" questions. But don't play any games or push her buttons, either. Just be yourself, the independent person you have become, and see how it goes.
FF, I think you are making some wonderful progress here and I too still appreciate your candor. I would suggest that you try to just focus on the friendship aspect with your W. Just be friends. It's a good way to wade in one toe at a time. It worked very well for my SO and myself. He had to test the waters a lot too, to make sure the changes were real. He's found out that they are. We've come to a major bump in the road, but for the most part we are handling it beautifully, together, as friends as well as lovers. All you have to do is wade into the pond an inch at a time. In time you will know whether or not the changes are real. If they're not, of course you are free to walk. But if they are, a whole new world and R awaits you!
About how you treated her in the past: she has forgiven you, or she wouldn't be asking you about your day. At some point you both may feel comfortable expressing your regrets, her for being controlling, you for lashing out. But you don't have to do that first. Get comfortable with small talk and kid talk first. Begin to function as co-parents and friends, and at some point you can both acknowledge your mistakes.
FF Step one, you need to think everything through, be honest about all of it. what do you want. Reconcilliation, right? Break it down. What will be the first thing that needs to happen? That you can talk to her without anxiety? Work on that for awhile. What is the next step write them down. make them baby steps so that you can monitor. Step two work on you. You have conceded that you have been mean, you need to stop that behavior. Other things about you, think it through, you need to be able to not feel controlled, so that means that you have to open up to your W. Step 3 here's a novel one BE Honest, Tell her the complete honest truth, and here's my version of it. I love you, I see that you have changed, I have too. I know that we were both at fault for our problems, I don't know if we can work them out, I am scared. I don't want to give you false hope but I want to try to work this out TOGETHER. I want you to be honest with me, I don't want to be manipulated, I don't want to feel manipulated and I don't want to manipulate. If I think that you are being manipulative I am going to tell you, if I don't like something I am going to tell you, and I want the same from you. We need to set ground rules for these things so that we don't get out of control. Maybe a safe time or safe place or limits on how often? What do you think W? Step 4 Give all us LBS the advise that we need to be as lucky as you.
Last edited by job; 09/26/1606:19 AM. Reason: Removal of link to another site.
