Effective DBing/ Feedback and Coaching

[TimeHeals]

If you have weak or non-existent boundaries (and everybody makes "mistakes", so our boundaries are tested), then you will wind up not being respected, and once there is no respect, there is no love.

You don't "make" somebody love you by turning into a doormat anymore than you "make" them love you by bullying them and throwing a tantrum when you don't get your way.

The doormat and the bully/constant nag are not healthy, and they kill off love.

Having healthy boundaries and good self-control are very loving.

It's not about being parental: it's about good behavior. If you allow some body to treat you badly and say nothing about it and cannot be happy when others around you are unhappy, then you just might be codependent.

Finally, needs and boundaries are two different things. Boundaries are standards of behavior to prevent us from harming or taking advantage of others and prevent others from harming or taking advantage of us.

I need oxygen, I need food and water. I want a spouse who I can respect and who respects me, so I had better have good boundaries and resonable self-contol because respect is something we all must continually earn, and that's all about how we conduct ourselves and whether or not we even respect ourselves.

[pookie69]

Regarding boundaries....our goal is MORE LOVE in the relationship right?

If we're coming off as authoritative, parental, etc.....well, we might win the battle but lose the war. What good is it if our partner meets our boundary but doesn't love us? OR loves us much less?

If they don't love us the boundaries are meaningless. They won't respect them because they don't respect us.

But respect can be earned by setting boundaries. It's a delicate process.

How can we get our needs met (our boundaries)....while still growing love?

Very carefully. "I don't like when you treat me this way. How can I help you to behave differently?"

[Frank V]

More of this parental nonsense...

This forum has boundaries.. They are laid out very clearly at the top of the forum.

Do I feel parented because they are there or when I read them?

No... Sorry, but I have heard several people on this thread make this parental comment and it unfortunately doesn't fly...

I would argue that if anything the lack of boundaries is childish... The lack of boundaries is the same reckless, confusing, free-for-all that children engage in...

If you want safety in your relationship, boundaries are essential... and wanting safety doesn't mean you are treating others like a child.. I just means that you have grown up.

[Coach]

Since they are our employees, we are in a "parental" relationship with them, in the sense that there is not an equal distribution of authority.

No. The women who works with me is a business partner, I have a different role than her. I have more repsonsiblity, make more and have different measures of accountablity. I am not her parent, she shares in profit, she has autonomy to do her job the best she sees fit and she can bring ideas to me that can help our business. I also can fire her. She could have me fired if I act out of line.


Give us an example of how you would deal with this:

A group of gypsies moved in my yard and set up camp, they said that this land is where their ancestors are from and their souls are mated to this place. They are using my electricity, phones, water, car and eating my food. They also treat me poorly no matter how much I do for them (I am trying to be as loving as I can.) I clean up after them (since that is one of their complaints - one of my 180s :)) and do their laundry. I even give them foot rubs!

Recently my wife and kids are joining them to go away to the city on the weekends. I stay home and cook, clean and tidy their camp. When they return I talk to them about their trip but my wife just brushes me off and goes and talks to the leader.

We stopped ML after a couple weeks of this, I think my wife is tired and stressed. One of her LLs is gifts so I keep buying her more to bring more love to the table. She seems so different now. My kids don't like going with the gypsies but my wife likes it so what can I do?

My friends can't believe how patient and understanding I have become, I am working on what was my part of the problem.

My goals - keep my marriage, family and have a sex life again. I don't want to push my wife away. What do I do?

ps I once said I was going to call the cops on them but they said I was being controlling, threatening, and they are really our friends. They then told me they would take my wife and kids and I would only see them half of the time if I didn't get in line. In the mean time I am working on me. Help!

or

I am a almost WAW, my H is abusive. I am working on my part of the relationship. Am I just supposed to take it until I get me figured out? I love on him the best I can. I do what he asks and they he tells me it's not good enough, I ask for help understanding and he just stomps off. I think I need to learn to communicate better. I think he is having a A but it's not his fault.

I am taking care of myself, and go to IC. I have friends and hobbies, which he is very jealous of so I am thinking of changing that. Would that bring more love to the M? When I change my behavior in a healthy way he gets mad and punishes me. I guess I need to change more. Tired of walking on eggshells.

My goals - get him to listen, help me around the house, and some affection.

ps It's hard to get him to listen because he texts constantly.

I will give you the script back on what the WAS says in reply. I am starting to feel unconscious BTW.

[TimeHeals]

I am starting to feel unconscious BTW.

Me too.

I'm leaning toward, "Tell you what. Go live your boundary-less life and see how that works out for ya".

[ArnieBGood]

Regarding boundaries....our goal is MORE LOVE in the relationship right?

Right!

If we're coming off as authoritative, parental, etc.....well, we might win the battle but lose the war. What good is it if our partner meets our boundary but doesn't love us? OR loves us much less?

This is indeed the consequence (!) of being authoritative/parental with our spouse. Every interaction either grows love or diminishes love.

How can we get our needs met (our boundaries)....while still growing love?

By making sure that setting a boundary is a process that grows rather than diminishes love. So how is love grown? By giving and by receiving love. I believe the answer, then, is to facilitate a process whereby my spouse is given the opportunity to meet my needs (or wants) as an act of love. The problem is that if I tell her what to do, then this denies her the opportunity to do it out of love. Acts of love are free-will gestures, and so it is ideally be framed in such a way that I am not telling her what to do (parental).

Coach, are you saying that the first scenario is a real one? Straw men situations don't prove anything.

As to the second one, which seems like it could be more plausible, tell me who “I” am. Obviously the woman is without boundaries, and if she is being “punished” or is truly in an abusive situation, then her “goals” are entirely unrealistic given the circumstances. If one is counseling the woman, the first order of business would be to find ways to build her self-esteem to the point where she is even capable of setting boundaries. At this point, it is unrealistic to expect that she will be - either in this relationship or any other. Depending on what the “abuse” is all about, it would make sense for her to leave the situation - but without improved internal boundaries (i.e. her sense of who she is) she is likely to repeat this dynamic in any new relationship.

I am starting to feel unconscious BTW.

Oh Coach, passive-aggressive is so unbecoming on you.

[Frank V]

I should have been more clear. What was being expressed was that the reason I advocate not introducing them except as a last resort is because I have found that to be more effective (and hence introducing them before then as less effective).

OK, so this isn't something you have read anywhere its just a single data sample from yourself... OK

Well, I think I can say with confidence that most of the posters on this forum are in last resort territory given that many of them are dealing with infidelity or separation by the time they arrive here..

Not at all. Perhaps you are under the impression that I am suggesting one set the limit in exactly the same way, except without the consequence included. That would not work, and would likely produce the effect that is being suggested.

I would rather not be under any impression. I would rather you just write plainly with as few words as possible and state your position... I don't know about everyone else but I am getting frustrated making guesses trying to pin you down.

Repeating the same limit after one has previously been agreed to amounts to nagging. Rather, the issue becomes something else if that were to occur - namely the keeping of agreements.

The question I put out there is what has to happen in your opinion before a full boundary with both limit and its consequences is verbalized?

That's it... I am not asking for definitions of nagging or keeping of agreements...

I see it differently. It is more than a preference - indeed, it is laying the groundwork for teaching the other person how you wish to be treated. This is precisely where people get into difficulties in relationships.

OK, that just looks like sixteen words used to simply say "prefer".

I don't know about you Arnie, but all this talk about communicating and you can't seem to put things simply... Keeping it simple really should be up there on the communication chart... but I am afraid I don't see it here...

Using 16 words to say "preference" isn't going to make communication go much smoother I'm afraid... It's just going to frustrate your partner...

If it is stated as a "preference" instead of a boundary, then it generally doesn't get to that point. And if it does, then it is not about smoking but about the fact that it was agreed to not smoke (presumably) and the agreement was broken.

Broken? Isn't that the ame thing as transgressed or violated?

I really think unless your spouse is a grammar teacher all this dancing around with wordplay isn't going to amount to much... You are just as apt to annoy your spouse rephrasing things and re-defining terms doing what you are doing here...

I am confused about which position has changed. Perhaps you would be willing to explain.

You dance around way too much Arnie... If you can't keep the dialog simple and practical I'm afraid I don't have confidence that this approach will work safely in a marriage... Particularly when its at a serious level of boundary violation... Messing around with terms and definitions when someone is violating your home doesn't solve problems in my opinion. And that's the trend I am seeing above... Sorry, but at this point I am convinced this "more effective" approach you are talking about ... isnt'.

If it was, I would understand you by now, and I dont'... I don't think anyone else does either...

Sorry, not convinced.. And a wayward spouse would not give you even half the time I have to state your case before they run off to their affair partner...

[ArnieBGood]

Frank, I have simply been attempting to point out where what I have expressed has apparently been misunderstood. Evidently the quantity of words that have been used is too many for comfort, and that is certainly not the intent.

I can only speak to my experience and what I have found to work (and not work). (I didn't make this stuff up, btw.) Your mileage may vary, and my intent is not to convince of anything, but to express my point of view. I am getting the sense that these viewpoints are heretical, based on the responses.

One of the things that made me realize there might be better ways was a conversation I had with a therapist who taught "I messages" to his clients, but wouldn't use them with his wife (also a therapist). Basically he wouldn't "eat his own dog food." He taught it to his clients because that's what he was trained to do - and for me, actions speak louder than words. I now have come to understand the problem with "I messages."

[TimeHeals]

I read that. I re-read it, and I really did try to see how your cryptic response has anything to do with your apparent problems with boundaries and calling bad behavior what it is.

So... that brings me to this.

I am sorry, Arnie. But it's just not working out with us. I wish you a good life and hope you find happiness, but it would be better if we didn't post to each other anymore.

[Bridgestone]

I have been reading this thread with interest, as I have spent hours reading, in IC, in MC, talking through this issue until I established my own boundaries in my relationships.

so, I am going to brave it and jump into the water.

Boundaries are for YOU.. they are what keep you healthy and your values intact and keep you out of co-dependent relationships.

Before you can set and convey your boundary to anyone.. you need a few things that only YOU can do.

1- Know what your own values and limits are (this takes maturity, experience & time to figure out)
2- Love & respect yourself enough to not settle for someone who repeatedly crosses your boundaries.

Yes setting boundaries gets you love.. love for yourself

why is setting boundaries loving yourself??

because you won't let others walk all over you without you standing up for yourself (how ever you choose to express that)

and until you love yourself.. you can't love others.

This is just of the things I have learned on this long, long journey from co-dependency to loving myself more than him.

my 2cents..

Peace
Bridge