I'm thinking there's something very akin to immaculate conception (of healthyboundaries) being argued here: that you must be health before you have healthy boundaries.
Doesn't seem possible to me.
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
How do you fix it without having the boundary to begin with?
Good question. I don't have the answer for anyone but myself - and I also know that I'm a "work in progress" in this regard. What helped me has been intensive inner-child work that involved tracing the roots of damaged self-esteem and lack of effective boundaries. I also recognize that MWD takes a very different tack with her "solution-oriented" approach. (Which is also similar to that of the "positive psychology" field).
For me a part of the problem stemmed from having been molested as a boy by a neighbor. I feel relatively fortunate though compared to some of the horror stories I know of IRL.
It would seem to be a catch-22, namely needing good boundaries to get healthy and needing to be healthy to have good boundaries.
So what do you suggest as a means for building healthy boundaries?
So what do you suggest as a means for building healthy boundaries?
It's a crazy idea, but... I was thinking if you start by reading (or a good counselor can work too) and learn to identify them first, and then audit yourself?
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
So what do you suggest as a means for building healthy boundaries?
It's a crazy idea, but... I was thinking if you start by reading (or a good counselor can work too) and learn to identify them first, and then audit yourself?
My understanding of infidelity is that there are (at least) two patterns - one being the "sex addict" and the other being the "normal" (!?) affair.
When it comes to clinical depression or addictions, I believe that specialists or programs specifically targeted (like AA, NA, SA, etc) are needed.
Of course they're needed.. That's not the challenge. The challenge is addicts classically are in denial and refuse treatment.
People having affairs are on a dopamine rush and do the same thing - refuse treatment. In the case of infidelity treatment is to end contact with the affair partner and attend family therapy.
Cocaine addicts do the same thing, despite all the programs out there... They refuse treatment until they suffer losses and are confronted with an extraordinary amount of inconvenience...
With infidelity the addiction can be for sex or for romance... Glass covers both.
Helen Fisher has done a great deal of work on Love, breaking it down to sexual lust, the excitement of short term romantic affection, and long term calm of deeply held attachment (marriage)
The problem is all three types of love can be felt for three different people. And in the case of lust one can feel sexual desire for many people at the same time.
An addict can feel romantic affection for an affair partner, and feel the deep long term attachment of a marital partner at the same time as well... This is one of the main drives that brings infidelity about in the first place.
Too many people getting addicted to sex (one night stands, porn) or romance (affairs PA or EA), and not enough people addicted to the calm of long term deep attachment.
There are treatment programs for this much like there are for drugs or alcohol, though far less plentiful of a supply.
The problem is the same : despite the addict being a threat to themselves and others they refuse treatment and maintain denial to their last breath... just like a cocaine addict does...
Fisher's done brain scans on people in short term love and compared them to brain scans of cocaine addicts.. both groups have the exact same areas of the brain stimulated with a dopamine rush...
The LBS watching all this nightmare happen can work on themselves all they want.. It won't do much good. In fact I would argue its just reinforcing the addiction and adding fuel to the fire - the comfort of a well-maintained home and having your dinners made for you doesn't exactly motivate someone to quit a bad habit...
The LBS watching all this nightmare happen can work on themselves all they want.. It won't do much good. In fact I would argue its just reinforcing the addiction and adding fuel to the fire - the comfort of a well-maintained home and having your dinners made for you doesn't exactly motivate someone to quit a bad habit...
You're describing classic co-dependency. The approach of programs like Al-Anon (as I understand them) are to focus the attention back to oneself and help grow healthy boundaries (among other things). That is, "working on oneself" seems to be precisely the way through.
I do know that you can't change another person, only oneself (MWD seems to claim otherwise, but if what she writes is closely examined, it still starts with oneself). This seems especially true with addiction. Working on oneself instead of trying to change the addict does not mean continuing to enable them, however.
Working on you won't help you live safely with an addict.. period.
Both the addict and the codependent both need therapy.. if the addict or codependent refuse, serious changes have to happen... the codependent can't simply work on themselves while remaining with the source of their codependency... it's detrimental to recovery...
My point is that with addictions, the addict needs to be addressed... One cannot simply work around them while living in the same home with them.
Addicts by their very nature are destructive to their environment.
Until some recovery is being worked on you are perpetually at risk...
You seem to want to use this "work on you" advice and fit it into everything to the point of the phrase being just rationalizing and not having meaning...
As soon as boundaries are the subject, or addictions, we aren't talking about just "you" any longer.. Boundaries are made between two people.
You can't have a boundary that is only recongized by one person... Anymore than a stop light that only lights one road and not the opposing road... Both directions need to cooperate.. Or you have no safety any longer.
That's what the boundaries are for, so people can live safely together...
No light, no boundary, no safety...
You need two people cooperating to make that work... And working on you with an addict isnt' going to result in that cooperation happening... It's right in the text.
The addict must suffer loses and inconvenience to them... You working on yourself isnt' going to bring loses to their doorstep or cause them much inconvenience.
Interventions are the standard with addicts.. And interventions with an addict isn't "working on you".. unless you stretch the meaning of this phrase beyond recognition...
Wouldn't that apply with any destructive behavior? Addiction presents a different issue but abuse (mental,physical,verbal), infidelity, financial irresponsiblity, poor parenting, all would require the behavior to be addressed as well regardless of the self improvment required.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Wouldn't that apply with any destructive behavior? Addiction presents a different issue but abuse (mental,physical,verbal), infidelity, financial irresponsiblity, poor parenting, all would require the behavior to be addressed as well regardless of the self improvment required.
Ummm ... yeah & Doh!
If you don't address the behavior, then you are enabling it. Without good boundaries, you are... (and I hate to use an over-used and over-applied term, but...) codependent.
If somebody doesn't respect healthy boundaries, it's OK to tell them that's just plain wrong, and if it's continual, then it's OK to remove yourself from the situation.
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
