How should I handle MLC direct lying?

[ericmsant2]

Amg

don't realistically see the M being repaired

Wow – now that’s positive. I have another more personal question for you but before I ask…

I'm not willing to talk to him (in person) about D or ownership of items. We can D w/o seeing each other. I guess I'm not really willing to talk to him about anything unless/until he mans up and says SOMETHING, ANYTHING about D, M, A...anything. What drives me most crazy is when I texted him about house ownership he said wasn't going to D by text and that he knew he hadn't "stepped up" to talk. That was 2 weeks ago and he still hasn't stepped up to to talk.

Boy are you pissed off. Man, If I was him I may not want to speak to you either. I am not trying to make you feel bad AMG. I’m just saying that you seem to harbor a fair amount of anger and resentment towards him.

Have you forgiven him?

If so, are you sure about that?

If not, then IS YOUR FORGIVENESS contingent on him “owning up to” his issues?

Amg, forgiveness is really for YOU sweetie. It is a gift that YOU give. It is not contingent on something that someone else must do for you.

Let me ask you a question….

Have you ever asked someone to forgive you. Wait…wait…before you answer that…answer this…

Did you make any mistakes in YOUR M?

If you did, and ftr, let’s assume you did and it was something that really hurt him – not an A…just something that really hurt him. And it was hurt that you really…I mean really felt bad about. So in order for you to feel better you needed him to forgive you.

How would you feel IF your H gave you a list of things that he need from YOU in order to provide the FORGIVENESS that YOU needed?

How would you feel?

Okay…here is my chitty question…

You seem to not be sure that you even want to deal with your H right now. You say you do not want a D yet you feel so much at peace with out him.

My question….

Have you found a “friend”?

Actually don’t answer and IF I have offended you I am sorry.

IF you have then, I would advice that you first decide what you want to do with your M and do not use the person as an emergency exit. It would not be fair to them.

Finally, you can feel free to tell me to fu*k myself…I pretty thick skin and I can take it…maybe that is why I can still have a conversation with my W – even if she does not apologize for all of her actions. But hey that’s just me.

God Bless,
Eric

[amg2]

If you feel you must reply, you can simply tell him that you will discuss a division of property when it becomes legally necessary. Don't help him.

Good point. I might use that. Thank you.

Amg


Have you forgiven him?

If not, then IS YOUR FORGIVENESS contingent on him “owning up to” his issues?

Did you make any mistakes in YOUR M?

You seem to not be sure that you even want to deal with your H right now. You say you do not want a D yet you feel so much at peace with out him.

My question….

Have you found a “friend”?

Finally, you can feel free to tell me to fu*k myself…

Ha no need on the last part. Made me laugh. I appreciate help or I wouldn't be here. No I haven't forgiven him. And yes I definitely contributed negatively to our M. Here's the thing: He hasn't asked for forgiveness. I kicked him out on D day and of course it was stressful w crying, illness, weight loss, a total disaster. But in 8 months...8!...has has not said "I want a D", "Will you fogive me?", "I want to move home", "I'll go to counseling". Nothing. He obviously wanted to cake eat, go to dinner every week or two, text at his convenience. I do suspect there is still something w an OP but I have no proof (didn't look for any) and could be wrong. Before D Day (this one) I started learning about reactivity and realized I was reactive...I own that and have been very up front about that with him during the last 8 months. I'm in and have been in IC.

All while he sits in his rented condo, not being D, not being M, probably injecting steroids, being the workaholic he's always been (at my expense), and I'm not sure what else because I'm NC and he's shut himself off quite a bit from his family and our friends.

I don't have a "friend" though as I've said here it's crossed my mind. I'll be honest and say I don't feel married though. I realize the seriousness of that...but it's true.

Maybe now is a good time for me to ask: a lot of people here at standing for their M. Should someone in my sitch be standing? He has one cell EA 7 years ago. I found semi nude pictures of him and a girl he picked up in a bar one night on our camera 5 years ago. 8 months ago I discovered that he had given his cell number to someone he met through work and they had he says an EA but it seems VERY unlikely it wasn't also a PA. AND to boot...he had an in depth texting EA with a minor. These last two are most recent D day. And since then have fully confirmed he was injecting illegal steroids. The problem is...he's not a player. He's not an egotistical jerk. He is ABSOLUTELY not the guy you would think would do this stuff. He's sick. He needs help. He hates himself. But he can't/won't see any of that b/c he thinks I made him do this stuff somehow.

I'm getting way off track here I guess. I am interested in feedback though about when: enough is enough. And are some people just NOT able to be dealt with b/c they won't look at themselves?

I'm still a bit unsure about whether to tell him to send the list of items he wants. I don't really want the list at this point...if I file for D I'll do it on my terms and don't really need his input. But I'm not financially secure (house) until I do file. What a mess.

Thank you all for your time and any opinions you might have.

[Truegritter]

Amg

My short answer to all that ^^^^

Specifically

Maybe now is a good time for me to ask: a lot of people here at standing for their M. Should someone in my sitch be standing?

Are you not going to stand because of what someone else did to you?

What H's choices are?

Have been?

What they will be?

None of which do you now or ever have controlled.

One of the most amazing things that we have an opportunity to discover in this tragedy is

WHO WE ARE.

Not as a spouse.

Not as a mother/father/son/daughter/friend

Not as what anyone perceives us to be or what we want to be perceived to be.

When YOU STAND in the face of adversity you find who you are because you do so at your own choosing.

Will you let H's choices choose who you are?

Will you let others perception of you cloud your own self perception?

You are done standing when YOU decide you are done.

If you think that is when enough time has passed for your

He's not an egotistical jerk. He is ABSOLUTELY not the guy you would think would do this stuff. He's sick. He needs help. He hates himself. But he can't/won't see any of that b/c he thinks I made him do this stuff somehow.

Confused, sick H to have the chance to figure HIS sh!t out on YOUR timeline.

Then that is your choice.

You find out a lot about yourself when you have to confront these choices Amg.

Me?

I know that if I decide to accept a relationship with my W again it will be because I decide to do so.

If I decide to leave it is because I have decided to move forward with my life.

No one is going to compromise my life. My choices.

Your answer lies within you.

[amg2]

I agree. I am absolutely a different person since all of this started. H doesn't even know me any more (though I don't think he knows that). It's as if I've taken this "opportunity" and run in a positive direction with it. He's done...nothing? Gotten more depressed, withdrawn and who all knows what with the steroids.

It has crossed my mind that the best thing I could do for him (yes HIM, since I do care about him) is D him. So that maybe he'll look at himself and get straight instead of going down the path he's going.

I know in the end each spouse has to make their choices for THEMSELVES. I have a feeling what that means for me but am taking NC time to think about that. I have been more clear, relaxed and happy since not dealing with his madness or "absurd comedy" as I call it.

Thank you again

[ericmsant2]

Amg,

I like what Grit posted to you. Think about it.

As for when is enough enough – that is for YOU to decide. Here is what I think….and FTR, I’m just some Rican that lives in CT so WTF do I know.

No I haven't forgiven him.

Forgiveness is provided when you are no longer THAT angry. Forgiveness frees YOU from these feelings. Now, am I not gonna tell you that you will “forget” – no you will not, especially if you do not want to forget.

Anger and Hurt…

It is hard to make the RIGHT decision when you are angry. When your decisions are based on YOUR anger as opposed to what you truly feel in YOUR heart, they tend to be…well…not the greatest decisions. Personally, I think you should make a decision when feel that you are at a place of peace and not so angry.

Amg, FTR, I know of the anger that I see in your post. Chit, I still get pissed off from time to time, so a little anger here or there is really okay – actually it is quite healthy. But it is anger none the less.

And yes I definitely contributed negatively to our M

AND what have you done to correct these things?

I'm not sure what else because I'm NC

And what are YOU doing with this time? Are you really trying to forgive? Are you really working on yourself?

a lot of people here at standing for their M

I would not agree with this. Some are just living and healing. Standing…well it depends on what your definition of standing is. So let me ask you amg what does standing mean to YOU?

He has one cell EA 7 years ago. I found semi nude pictures of him and a girl he picked up in a bar one night on our camera 5 years ago. 8 months ago I discovered that he had given his cell number to someone he met through work and they had he says an EA but it seems VERY unlikely it wasn't also a PA. AND to boot...he had an in depth texting EA with a minor.

Does any of this change how you want to live your life and the type of person that you want to be?

I mean really….my W had an EA and PA and honestly I am not sure she ended the PA – guess what? None of that changes who I am as a person.

I could CHOOSE to….

sit here and dwell on it (and FTR, sometime I still do think about it),
be pissed off
begin to resent her OR…

I can Choose to sit here
and ask God to touch my heart
Ask God to help me see where I went wrong and help me change it,
Ask for forgiveness in my heart,
Ask for peace in my life

I know what I have choosen.

The really cool thing…Is that I finally reached a place where I understand that I get to make the choices of HOW I live my life. I was only able to realize this when I began to work on the anger.

The problem is...he's not a player. He's not an egotistical jerk. He is ABSOLUTELY not the guy you would think would do this stuff. He's sick. He needs help. He hates himself. But he can't/won't see any of that b/c he thinks I made him do this stuff somehow.

What does the word Crisis mean to YOU?

I'm still a bit unsure about whether to tell him to send the list of items he wants. I don't really want the list at this point...

Stop for a second and try not to be so angry and then think about what is the “right” thing to do.

But I'm not financially secure (house) until I do file. What a mess.

Sticking this out because of finances is not the right choice IMO.

Do you think that you can serve two masters?

Finances

Love

Decide what you want for YOUR life AMG.

Then stick to it.

[amg2]

Obviously you've both given me a lot to think about and I appreciate the time you've taken. I wish I could secure the house to me alone w/o filing for D, so I could just have/continue to have peaceful time to focus on me and think. But the lawyer says only way to sign house over is to file.

I really have/am working on myself. IC since before D day. I love reading self help books and doing my "inner work". OK I don't love all of the work but I embrace it. I truly have had a whole new awakening for MYSELF. This is work in progress I know, but the changes have already been significant. I've always been religious and that helps me immensely too.

Forgiveness...honestly I'm not sure I'll ever forgive H for choosing the stupid things over the great things we had. It's a travesty really. We really did have a lot of special ties, though all of that seems to have evaporated (for me anyway) now. I don't think I'll ever be ok with him "deciding" that these petty, meaningless things were worth losing our M. I know I'll grow in this regard over time (I hope). And I know I need to be more aware of the "crisis" part of the words MLC. But it's hard. And he's in sooooooo deep. He has even jeopardized his job with his 'activities'...and as I mentioned he's a workaholic who told me he has nothing to live for but his job so that describes the severity.

We exchanged a few texts and I said I'd let him know if/when i legally needed the list. He texted back that he thought I was talking to a lawyer and needed it. We don't communicate well...nothing new. But it seems like we've agreed I don't need a list and that I'm only talking business w him now b/c he is still behaving inappropriately as a husband, and because I won't be in an unhealthy situation. I did also point out that my NC shouldn't be used as an excuse for him to continue to avoid...tht I'm happy to talk business as needed. So for what it's worth that's how this round ended. I don't think either of us knows what we want really.

Thank you again. Very much. Including the laughs as I can use them

[ericmsant2]

Kissak,

But the lawyer says only way to sign house over is to file.

What is more important the house or your soul? A house is nothing more than 4 walls. It is what is in the house that matters.

I've always been religious and that helps me immensely too

Then can I assume that you have asked God, Christ, the universe, Allah, Budda, etc. to forgive YOU? If so, then….

Forgiveness...honestly I'm not sure I'll ever forgive H for choosing the stupid things over the great things we had.

Think about this statement for a second….

We don't communicate well

Communication is a TWO way street. It involves listening and understanding. DB principals if you think of them teach us HOW to communicate. It is how we apply them that matters.

I don't think either of us knows what we want really

There will come a time when YOU will know…First though you need to continue to work on yourself and get to that place of true peace, understanding and FORGIVENESS.

Including the laughs as I can use them

FTR, sometime I crack myself up.

We really did have a lot of special ties, though all of that seems to have evaporated (for me anyway) now.

Quite often in order for a M..fu*k a R to be re-established/formed the old dysfunctional one will need to die.

BUT

If you really do the “inner work”…well then any New R, which could be with your H is going to be much better!


God Bless,
Eric

[amg2]

I just have to say, the first two times (that I know of) that my H cheated, I didn't flinch. I was right in it with him, examining the M, going to counseling, drawing up the "plan of action". At times even convincing him why our M was good and worth saving. Heading up the show. In hindsight, I think my reactions, acceptance and willingness to stay are part of why my H was bold enough to pull #3 and #4. Dr. Phil says "we teach others how to treat us." I taught him these things wouldn't cost him his M. We were a TEAM, right? Right.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think all "forgivenesses" are created equal. For example, asking for forgiveness for raising your voice or being reactive (even if for many years) is to me much different than asking for forgiveness for creating a complete life of lies, injecting illegal drugs, etc. Just like the punishment is different say for theft than it is for murder, legally.

TG made a comment about "finding out who YOU are in the face of adversity." I've faced adversity with him...many times. Lots of it. How I have a soul and any confidence left in myself at this point is totally by the grace of God. And maybe I now see that I was a fool to do that--look what it has earned me. Maybe after too many times you find out who you are by accepting that you can't rescue someone who has made dysfunction a WAY OF LIFE. It's different than an accident, a mistake, to be forgiven, but a WAY OF LIFE.

Not disagreeing with any of you. Just reflecting out loud.

[Truegritter]

TG made a comment about "finding out who YOU are in the face of adversity."

I think you understand what I mean by what you just said.

There are no Pre-drawn conclusions here.

I meant what I said, and I said what I meant

you only control yourself 100%.



You can't rescue.

You can't save.

And if there is dysfunction in your M you HAVE allowed it.

Your choice should be based in who you are. If you walk away without knowing that you are destined to repeat it.

If you are someone who no longer accepts this dysfunction in her life then do not accept it.

Do not blame H.

His choices are his.

Yours are yours.

Adversity challenges us. We either grow or we regress.

And

Forgiveness is for you not for someone else.

It is the gift you give yourself.

It is a healthy progression amg. You might not agree with his choices,

and you won't be part in enabling them any longer,

but recognizing his right to make them can help set you on the path of healing and forgiveness.

I am not trying to sell you anything I don't believe myself.

My own experience. Am I done? No.

I am just not. I think I will know when.

But

I know that if I go it will be for my own reasons and not because of some choice my W made or didn't make.

It will be for me just as my choice to stand is for me.

[ericmsant2]

Great Post Bro...

Great post!

Amg,

We were a TEAM, right?

You tell me. Where you a team. Are you a team now?

but I don't think all "forgivenesses" are created equal. For example, asking for forgiveness for raising your voice or being reactive (even if for many years) is to me much different than asking for forgiveness for creating a complete life of lies, injecting illegal drugs, etc. Just like the punishment is different say for theft than it is for murder, legally.

I guess it depends on the person. Here is another way to look at it. If someone would ask me what would be more painful...knowing that my wife is fu*king someone else (aka theft of the woman I love) OR stabbing me in the heart. How would I answer that? Well if you would have asked me when I found out that she was with another man I would have said please stab me in the heart.

I guess my point is..Hurtful things are hurtful things. Period.

Does the pain you caused someone albeit unintentionally and less painful that something that is done intentionally. Two wrongs do not a right make. Forgiveness, as Mr Grit pointed out is really for YOU.

grace of God

Grace is a wonderful thing. In the Christian faith we thank God for his son that died on the cross even as we were sinners.

And maybe I now see that I was a fool to do that--look what it has earned me.

What has it earned YOU?

Has it earned you a dysfunctional R?

Has it earned you a cheating spouse?

OR

Have you allowed things in your life that are not healthy?

Was that your H fault or yours?

What is healthy?

What is commitment?

When is enough enough?

It is enough when you say it is and understand the reason why you say it is.

Amg, I am not telling you to call it a day. Nope.

I am telling you to forgive, heal, grow, work on yourself and then make a choice from a place of peace.

That choice is yours to make. Not your H's and not mine.

Only yours.

God Bless,
Eric