Facing the music

[Forrest Gump]

Off we go...

"7 or 8 years ago I was a strong, fun guy. Lately I've just been drowning and I think that is why my M is ending."

So you imply here that your wife can "see" you drowning. 7 or 8 years is a long time to watch someone drowning.

Do you think she has thrown you a "life saver" while you were out there drowning?

At what point do you stop throwing people a rope?

"I want to be the fun guy my W fell in love with. To not worry about money and the future so much. I used to think that IF I had the big house, the good job and some savings THEN things would be OK. THEN I could work on my R. THEN I could give my W what she needed."

But.. is this not what life teaches us? This is what we are supposed to do. Big house.. Big Money.. Big Family.. it is what women want!

But.. when we look at you statement.. you start to understand.. something Big.. was missing.

What do you think it was?

"I don't want to do that anymore. She is too important. I am too important. Life is too short."

The funny thing is that you put thing in the right order. What do you know about your wife?

Explain her to me. You could make a list.. or just talk off the cuff. Imagine that I have no idea what a woman is.

Got it?

"I guess, I want to unwind all the crap in my life."

You can't back up. You can't undo it. With the words.. she has changed it. Now more than ever.. you need to hear what she is saying.

Why do you think she had an affair?

Why would it be difficult for her to walk away from "That guy"?

[NotFromThesePart]

Define "Respected" and "Myself".

Hmm. I think what I'm getting at here comes from recent experience. I've never felt I had the space to screw up a little without there being serious consequences. I guess I get a lot of this from W. She does respect me intellectually at least. But she HATES when I show weakness. Let me give you an example. I’ve been lazy over the last two years. I put on weight and stopped running. I ran a 3:38:00 marathon a few years ago.
I’ve wanted to get back in shape. But I felt I needed support. I wanted to start running, just a little 3 miles 2x per week. I knew I could do that. But I also felt that if I told her that was my plan, she’d mock he and tell me I’m lame and a wimp. So I never started. When we did talk about it, it would start a fight and she’d basically tell me “that is not good enough”.
I felt disrespected and incapable of either standing up to her or getting what I wanted. I have similar stories around sex here.
“Myself” is harder to define. But I know I was happier a few years ago, and I liked myself and felt I was being truer to who I was.

"I want to spend more time outdoors."
Does this include the "family"?

Absolutely! I get tremendous strength from being outside and I love sharing it. But some of the above bled over into this too.

"I want to do some kind of good works. Probably wilderness protection, but it is hard to say."
So. you don't know what you want to do with this part of your life?

No. I don’t. Understand that it is just a part or my life and I know that it is not everything. This will take work, but honestly it’s like number 9 or 10 on my list right now and I can’t disambiguate it from what W wants.

"I want to be physically stronger."
PX-90? I mean you got 30 days.

I can’t get that here, but I am doing it my own way and I feel it is working. But there are people here who can help me. It would be a 180 to reach out to them, so that is my plan.

"I want to run for office."
This is good.. although.. Your goals seem to be "power" oriented.

I don’t know if that is where this is coming from. I have a plan, and again I know it is what W wants, so I’m trying hard to separate those. But I think it comes more from a sense of community. I’m not talking about governor or congress or anything; city council in my town of 1200. Only takes 250 votes.

"How is that?"
It was better.. I expect more.
Last question.. what is your life missing right now?

Apart from the obvious? Relationships. I’m really lonely here. I’ve in part isolated myself, but there is also a part of it that is dumb luck.
The whole situation is forcing me to reach out to people that I basically cut out of my life a few years ago. I am incredibly thankful the.; my sister in particular. She is a new mother but is finding the time for me every day. It is bringing us closer than we’ve ever been.

[NotFromThesePart]

You are vicious! Thanks.

Off we go...
"7 or 8 years ago I was a strong, fun guy. Lately I've just been drowning and I think that is why my M is ending."
So you imply here that your wife can "see" you drowning. 7 or 8 years is a long time to watch someone drowning.
Do you think she has thrown you a "life saver" while you were out there drowning?
At what point do you stop throwing people a rope?

She tried. Some people recommend the book, “the 5 love languages” I’ve not read it, but it is on order. I think this has been part of our problem. When she isn’t getting what she needs, she fights. I’m a conflict avoider, so my instinct is to diminish it, explain to her why she is wrong.
This current job was the big leap for the brass ring. When it was clear it wasn’t right, W just wanted to find enjoyment where she could. I wanted to fix it. Moving her back to the states was a way to do that. HUGE MISTAKE. Biggest single mistake of my life. She told me flat out “I think this could break us up”. My answer “oh no, it is only for a few months.” . . . . . . . I didn’t hear what she was saying.

"I want to be the fun guy my W fell in love with. To not worry about money and the future so much. I used to think that IF I had the big house, the good job and some savings THEN things would be OK. THEN I could work on my R. THEN I could give my W what she needed."
But.. is this not what life teaches us? This is what we are supposed to do. Big house.. Big Money.. Big Family.. it is what women want!
But.. when we look at you statement.. you start to understand.. something Big.. was missing.
What do you think it was?

Intimacy.

"I don't want to do that anymore. She is too important. I am too important. Life is too short."

The funny thing is that you put thing in the right order. What do you know about your wife?

I question that now more than ever.

Explain her to me. You could make a list.. or just talk off the cuff. Imagine that I have no idea what a woman is.

Hmm.
- Dissatisfied with herself
- Capable, but does not know it.
- Beautiful
- Sexy
- Disorganized
- Hugely capable of loving
- Sees me like a father
- She comes from a divorced family and absolutely fears becoming her mother who she sees as a narcissist
- Fills her life with stuff, shoes, clothes, sewing equipment, books. She dislikes this tendency
- Flits between one thing and another.
- She does have a tendency to be physically attracted to dangerous guys (climbers, her boss, another guys whose job I can’t say)
- Smart.
- Well read.
- Unsure of herself.
- Has a difficult time planning.
- Hates pretense
- NEEDS to be reassured of just about everything
- Seeks validation of others
- Makes me just smile!
- Thinks of herself as weird, and thinks that if she had shown me her true self early I wouldn’t have picked her
- Has a hard time accepting that I love, respect and cherish her.
That is just off the top of my head. I could go on or dive into any one.

Got it?

"I guess, I want to unwind all the crap in my life."
You can't back up. You can't undo it. With the words.. she has changed it. Now more than ever.. you need to hear what she is saying.
Why do you think she had an affair?
Why would it be difficult for her to walk away from "That guy"?

I think she had the affair for a few reasons.
- She was lonely and was reconsidering our marriage. I think she knew that I wouldn’t end it with her w/o an “unforgivable” sin on her behalf.
- She was testing me. What would I do?
- She was lonely and co-dependent.
But I don’t know. I was far away, we’ve (and I changed that pro-noun from “she” to “we” recently) had issues for years. Maybe it was as simple as she doing something different because what she was doing wasn’t working.
And she likes sex. I’ve neglected her in that department due to my own depression/anxiety.

[Forrest Gump]

"She does respect me intellectually at least. But she HATES when I show weakness."

Even with your example...

"I’ve been lazy over the last two years."

You still understand that she has not been showing you the "Respect" you deserve.

Why does she still respect you intellectually?

How can you earn the respect you deserve?

"When we did talk about it, it would start a fight and she’d basically tell me “that is not good enough”."

So.. she expected more? From you? (PX-90)

"“Myself” is harder to define. But I know I was happier a few years ago, and I liked myself and felt I was being truer to who I was."

If YOU can't define yourself.. how can anyone else? It is hard to understand someone.. when they don't know who they are.

"No. I don’t. Understand that it is just a part or my life and I know that it is not everything. This will take work, but honestly it’s like number 9 or 10 on my list right now and I can’t disambiguate it from what W wants."

So.. we will come back to this?

In 24-22 days whatever it is now.

Be careful with making plans on someone's thought. (DANGER)

"I can’t get that here."

You has Internetz.. You just don't know how. 90% of the battle was won.. with just having the Web at your disposal.

I understand if you don't get it.

"The whole situation is forcing me to reach out to people that I basically cut out of my life a few years ago. I am incredibly thankful the.; my sister in particular. She is a new mother but is finding the time for me every day. It is bringing us closer than we’ve ever been."

This happened for a reason. I will leave it at that. Be careful with whom you reach out to. That is all I will say.

Off we go....

[Forrest Gump]

"She tried. Some people recommend the book, “the 5 love languages”.. I think this has been part of our problem."

I changed that some...

Communication is always the issue.

Love Languages (LL) are part of this.

The book is good.. but it is a hard read.

There are 5 LL's

Start with defining yours.

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/assessments/love/

We will get to hers latter.

"Intimacy."

So your answer to the question was Big Intimacy.

To me.. that just does not fit.

It seems a bit awkward.

Baby.. I wanna show you some Big Intimacy.

I question how exactly you would show BI.

Your description could be both fun.. and "vulgar".

Lets find a different word.

"I question that now more than ever."

Which is understandable. This situation has changed your perspective. The person reacting to this situation is surely a person you would never associate with.

How has her perspective changed? And is it a realistic view of the situation?

On to the list...

"- Dissatisfied with herself
- Capable, but does not know it.
- Beautiful
- Sexy
- Disorganized
- Hugely capable of loving
- Sees me like a father
- She comes from a divorced family and absolutely fears becoming her mother who she sees as a narcissist
- Fills her life with stuff, shoes, clothes, sewing equipment, books. She dislikes this tendency
- Flits between one thing and another.
- She does have a tendency to be physically attracted to dangerous guys (climbers, her boss, another guys whose job I can’t say)
- Smart.
- Well read.
- Unsure of herself.
- Has a difficult time planning.
- Hates pretense
- NEEDS to be reassured of just about everything
- Seeks validation of others
- Makes me just smile!
- Thinks of herself as weird, and thinks that if she had shown me her true self early I wouldn’t have picked her
- Has a hard time accepting that I love, respect and cherish her. "

Good list.

If we look at it.. and ponder it.. what are things you can control?

Seriously.. I applaud you for that list. You did a great job with that!

Now I want to "see" what you do with the list.

"That is just off the top of my head. I could go on or dive into any one."

Again.. go with the list you have and think about what I want you to do with it...

What are things you can control?

"I think she had the affair for a few reasons."

I will come back to your answers.. I read them.. and they tell a story.

But you are leading.. I am just here to hold you to it.

Now...

Do Work.

[NotFromThesePart]

Start with defining yours.

“Acts of service” This strikes me as about right. This will sound strange. While we were dating, one day while I was at work she went to my house and got my car detailed. I still consider this the single nicest thing anyone has ever done for me. I know that really isn’t true in actuality, but I was just bowled over that someone would just do that for me for no apparent reason.

So your answer to the question was Big Intimacy.
To me.. that just does not fit.

Maybe intimacy isn’t the word. She wanted to be noticed. She wanted me to WANT to know her. In both the biblical and literal sense. Often she said “I don’t think you even like me”. She wanted me to be amazed by her. One thing I found really hard was showing her I appreciate her for the things she liked about herself. They aren’t in my top 10 list of her wonderful qualities, but she wanted validation in these areas.

How has her perspective changed? And is it a realistic view of the situation?

I think she lost her optimism. Just a few months ago she was optimistic. I don’t recall if I talked about this, but in July I was visiting her and we went to a fertility clinic. I think this has to be seen as optimistic. The A seems to have just extinguished any optimism about us she had. She disappointed herself, and seems to be unable of seeming how I could possibly get over it.
I hope it is not realistic. I am totally optimistic that I can be a better husband to her. I WANT to be a better husband. Really I want to be a better person in general.

On to the list...
If we look at it.. and ponder it.. what are things you can control?

Is control the question? What can I control? None with the possible exception of this:
- Makes me just smile!
I think the real question is what can I influence. I believe most of them. Let’s take the spending issue. For years I just told her “stop spending”; like it would have been that easy. Well it might have been for me, but not for her. A couple weeks ago, she told me:
What you should have done was to come to me told me “here is the deal, let’s save your money for one month. At the end of the month I’ll take you out and buy you a pair of shoes”
When I ponder this, what I think it means is that I need to me more engaged with her life, and more creative in how I go about helping her get what she needs. I need to help her rather than tell her. I’ve been bad about this in most areas, but not all. The one area we both agree that I help her in is work. She constantly is asking me for help with her work. I do give her ideas, but in the end she is responsible for implementing the ideas, and she does. Well. It is frustrating because she gives me way too much credit for this. I wish I could do this in our personal life. I think I feel to invested to take any risks though.

Now I want to "see" what you do with the list.
"That is just off the top of my head. I could go on or dive into any one."
Again. go with the list you have and think about what I want you to do with it...

Right now I don’t know how to do this. I need an opening with her. Perhaps it will come and I have some ideas. But I do worry I’ll overwhelm her.

[NotFromThesePart]

Start with defining yours.

“Acts of service” This strikes me as about right. This will sound strange. While we were dating, one day while I was at work she went to my house and got my car detailed. I still consider this the single nicest thing anyone has ever done for me. I know that really isn’t true in actuality, but I was just bowled over that someone would just do that for me for no apparent reason.

So your answer to the question was Big Intimacy.
To me.. that just does not fit.

Maybe intimacy isn’t the word. She wanted to be noticed. She wanted me to WANT to know her. In both the biblical and literal sense. Often she said “I don’t think you even like me”. She wanted me to be amazed by her. One thing I found really hard was showing her I appreciate her for the things she liked about herself. They aren’t in my top 10 list of her wonderful qualities, but she wanted validation in these areas.

How has her perspective changed? And is it a realistic view of the situation?

I think she lost her optimism. Just a few months ago she was optimistic. I don’t recall if I talked about this, but in July I was visiting her and we went to a fertility clinic. I think this has to be seen as optimistic. The A seems to have just extinguished any optimism about us she had. She disappointed herself, and seems to be unable of seeming how I could possibly get over it.
I hope it is not realistic. I am totally optimistic that I can be a better husband to her. I WANT to be a better husband. Really I want to be a better person in general.

On to the list...
If we look at it.. and ponder it.. what are things you can control?

Is control the question? What can I control? None with the possible exception of this:
- Makes me just smile!
I think the real question is what can I influence. I believe most of them. Let’s take the spending issue. For years I just told her “stop spending”; like it would have been that easy. Well it might have been for me, but not for her. A couple weeks ago, she told me:
What you should have done was to come to me told me “here is the deal, let’s save your money for one month. At the end of the month I’ll take you out and buy you a pair of shoes”
When I ponder this, what I think it means is that I need to me more engaged with her life, and more creative in how I go about helping her get what she needs. I need to help her rather than tell her. I’ve been bad about this in most areas, but not all. The one area we both agree that I help her in is work. She constantly is asking me for help with her work. I do give her ideas, but in the end she is responsible for implementing the ideas, and she does. Well. It is frustrating because she gives me way too much credit for this. I wish I could do this in our personal life. I think I feel to invested to take any risks though.

Now I want to "see" what you do with the list.
"That is just off the top of my head. I could go on or dive into any one."
Again. go with the list you have and think about what I want you to do with it...

Right now I don’t know how to do this. I need an opening with her. Perhaps it will come and I have some ideas. But I do worry I’ll overwhelm her.
 

Why does she still respect you intellectually?

Because that is about the only part of my life I have not neglected over the last few years. It is my lowest common denominator. Her I “do the work”. Reading, studying . . . I think in the end it is one of the things that I know I get respect for. I’m kind of one of those classic “nice guys”. Intellectual pursuits seem to just not be questioned by most people. Nobody criticizes me for this and it is unlikely to create conflict, which I’m starting to realize I avoid like the plague.
But this is really just a lie I tell myself. Were I a true intellectual I would make more room for the arts rather than burying myself in history and the “hard” sciences.

How can you earn the respect you deserve?

Two things. One, be more respectful of her and others (golden rule). Two, pursue more, be less passive.

"When we did talk about it, it would start a fight and she’d basically tell me “that is not good enough”."
So.. she expected more? From you? (PX-90)

I don’t if she expected more, or if we just have different ways of doing things. Talk is cheap. Rather than look to her to bless my plan prior to doing it, I just needed to do it. I was confident it would work. Why not do it. Results are more important than being “right”.

"“Myself” is harder to define. But I know I was happier a few years ago, and I liked myself and felt I was being truer to who I was."
If YOU can't define yourself.. how can anyone else? It is hard to understand someone.. when they don't know who they are.
"No. I don’t. Understand that it is just a part or my life and I know that it is not everything. This will take work, but honestly it’s like number 9 or 10 on my list right now and I can’t disambiguate it from what W wants."

So.. we will come back to this?

I hear you. I’m not punting on this, but it is really hard for me right now. The answer I keep coming back to is the person I was 7 years ago, plus the emotional maturity to be able to express my needs to someone else and to truly listen to them. I guess I would say a more generous version of my former self?

Be careful with making plans on someone's thought. (DANGER)

Agreed, that is part of the reason I’m here. I want to bounce ideas off of people.

"I can’t get that here."
You has Internetz.. You just don't know how. 90% of the battle was won.. with just having the Web at your disposal.
I understand if you don't get it.

No really. Shipping takes like 6 weeks to get here. I’ll be gone by then.

"The whole situation is forcing me to reach out to people that I basically cut out of my life a few years ago. I am incredibly thankful the.; my sister in particular. She is a new mother but is finding the time for me every day. It is bringing us closer than we’ve ever been."
This happened for a reason. I will leave it at that. Be careful with whom you reach out to. That is all I will say.

Yes, I’m wary of my family and friends. They just want me to stop hurting. They love me and are therefore biased.

Off I go! Thanks.

If I ever meet you I’ll buy you a beer. That goes for everyone here!

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Hey Parts,

You are in fantastic hands with Forrest.

My only concern with the 30 days is that at the end of it, Parts is going to either be moving toward his marriage or away from it.

I would like Parts to realize that "F the 30 days regardless" determine that he wants to work on his marrige or not without somesort of imposed timeline (because timelines do not work in your favor here) and figure out for himself if his marriage is worth his comittment.

Because that is what it is, a comittment. "30 days", however, is like that return policy on a mattress.

[Forrest Gump]

"“Acts of service” This strikes me as about right. This will sound strange. While we were dating, one day while I was at work she went to my house and got my car detailed. I still consider this the single nicest thing anyone has ever done for me. I know that really isn’t true in actuality, but I was just bowled over that someone would just do that for me for no apparent reason."

If I said to you.. People will show you the way to love them.. how would you apply that to this situation? People do this unintentionally most of the time. Also most people will claim that the nicest things they have had done to/for them.. were things that seemed to come "out of the blue". What would motivate someone to act in this manner?

So. Acts. Hmm.. do any of the other LL's seem to fit you also? We typically are a blend of them.. based on circumstances of the time you take the test. There should be 1 that really sticks out to you thou. How do you show Love to someone who is a Act's person?

"She wanted to be noticed. She wanted me to WANT to know her. In both the biblical and literal sense. Often she said “I don’t think you even like me”. She wanted me to be amazed by her. One thing I found really hard was showing her I appreciate her for the things she liked about herself. They aren’t in my top 10 list of her wonderful qualities, but she wanted validation in these areas."

Well technically.. your job is to know her. Inside and out. You should be amazed by her. Most of us men talk a different language than our partner.. this is why it seems difficult to get across what we want to say. It is amazing.. and kinda disheartening.. that we can live with someone for years and miss so much.

So.. if we apply this to your "stitch" we come up with this.

You both have made mistakes. You are equal in the mistakes. Even though your feelings may be more hurt.. Just look at things as you both did this! No one is more at fault than the other.

"Really I want to be a better person in general."

So how can you implement this in your life now?

"I think the real question is what can I influence."

You could use that word. Influence can be a precursor to Control and Power.

"When I ponder this, what I think it means is that I need to me more engaged with her life, and more creative in how I go about helping her get what she needs. I need to help her rather than tell her."

You need to be engaged but you also need to communicate better.. most likely. Even though she says you should do "X".. that does not mean that she wants you to do it the way you perceive it. I like that you said be creative. If you can talk to someone without opening your mouth.. then you are communicating.

"I need an opening with her. Perhaps it will come and I have some ideas. But I do worry I’ll overwhelm her."

Try not to overwhelm her.. cause then you will hear.. "That is fake.. it is not real". Openings will come.. you just have to "see" them. Hone your skill on people around you. Wake up in the morning and decide to pick out times where you could help or enlighten a random person that crosses your path. Don't try and create openings. Let them happen naturally. Apply the same in even the smallest interaction you have with your wife now. If you get an email from her.. and it makes you mad.. when you type back the response.. make sure you force yourself to smile the entire time you are typing. Simple.. small steps.. thought out smartly.. will move you forward.

"Because that is about the only part of my life I have not neglected over the last few years."

So what should you be doing?

"Two things. One, be more respectful of her and others (golden rule). Two, pursue more, be less passive."

I think you can do better than that.. that seemed like a canned answer. The first thing you need to do is respect your self and the life you have created. Even if your life is horrible.. you still created it. You put work into it. You are reaching out.. to get help.. which is a smart thing. It is a respectable thing. Stand by your decisions. Even the ones that sucked.

Lets be very careful in your pursuing right now. You can be less passive without pursuing. Try small things and monitor the response. Be coy. Be creative.. but not over the top. You don't want to overwhelm her.. remember. Plus.. it will be fake. Once you get the goal.. things will flounder again.

My personal take.. is if you can Love her like a friend.. she will gain respect for you.

"No really. Shipping takes like 6 weeks to get here. I’ll be gone by then."

I am kinda harping on this.. partly out of sarcasm.. partly to prove a point.

You could get it.. if you knew how.

You can download 6gigs of information In roughly 6 hours with a connection speed of 256k. A DVD is slightly over 4gig.

Would it be legal? No.
Could it be done? As long as you know where to look.

The point is.. if you have all the information.. and understand how to apply it.. you can do anything.. even overcome 6 weeks of shipping.

"If I ever meet you I’ll buy you a beer."

Not a big fan of beer.. a mixed drink I am good with. And thanks for the offer.

But.. I would much rather "see" you do something different.. and stand out. Read what we are telling you.. and figure out how to use it in your life to create a change. If she can create "change".. you can to.

[NotFromThesePart]

Hey Parts,
My only concern with the 30 days is that at the end of it, Parts is going to either be moving toward his marriage or away from it.

I see your point, but again the 30 days wasn’t my idea. I’ve been against it. Why? Because I know that at the end of it, the most likely outcome is that nothing changes. This is her deadline and she thinks maybe something will change in her. But what can that be? If she says “I’ve decided and I want a divorce. I’m in love with the OM” what do I do? Do I still move to be near her?

Let me be clear I will work for my marriage. I will wait and I will work.

I have a lot of anger. But most of it is not from the A. It is the timing. I’m feeling left out to dry here. She has the luxury of being safe in her job and home. I have neither of those and must rely on her just to get home.

If I move towards my marriage and she doesn’t I must rely on her for my very subsistence. That is hard to take. Really hard. The rational side of my brain just does not want to do this.

Having said all this, it is my plan to return to work on my marriage. I’ve begun packing up my belongings and have told HR I am resigning. Next week I tell the movers to come and ship out things to Denver. I’m flying blind.