My continuing saga...

[futureunknown]

Wow. Was out of town on a business trip. Got back and my new thread is already two pages long!

Everyone, I really appreciate your continued support and advice.

My sitch is very long, so you all might not know, but I have dumped her twice before. The first time was last December. Her A with OM had collapsed, and she came sniffing around, angry, totally lacking respect and remorse, and acting like I should be thankful she's giving me scraps. I soundly rejected her. She got extremely angry, gave me all sorts of "Now it's really over" crap, but I held firm. I barely spoke to her for almost six months. I did go out and date, I did have a ball. She absolutely did think she lost me. Even I thought maybe I was done with her. I was giving her nothing. It did attract her back. She sued me to get my attention, then tried to seduce me, and I let her in too easy back in May. We did have some fun, and she did show me SOME respect, and even a tiny bit of remorse, but nowhere near enough. She tried to manipulate me into letting her date other guys while we did family things together, but I said no, held tough, dumped her again, and spent about six weeks going out, dating, and having fun. This is now the third round of all this, but it's not the same each time. This time she was much more respectful, and actually showed a little remorse. She wanted to do Retrouvaille, but still wanted to hold onto her A with OM as something good, leading to our argument.

Future as long as you didn't go batshitcrazy when you got angry with her and started being honest, I don't think the anger did any harm. If you got all emotional, weepy, wussy, teary eyed then yeah, you did wrong but from the sounds of it, you didn't go that far. You got angry, stood up for yourself (and I always make a point of telling people to stand up for themselves and to stand up to WAS's "crap behavior")

I'm glad you agreed with the divorce.

Thanks robx. I needed to hear that, because deep down, I knew I only stood up for myself. I didn't go crazy, and I didn't get weepy at all. I was trying to point out how full of sh*t she was, and how I felt totally disrespected by her continued statements of affection for OM. I did show some anger, but I felt I was only using it as a source of strength. If she had backed down, shown remorse and vulnerability, I would have been defused, and we could have had a real moment of healing, like we did at her house a couple weeks ago. Instead she reared up and got defensive, leading to me feeling even more disrespected. She did get me a little when she left the bar and got in her car crying. I fell for it, and I'm p*ssed at myself for it. It got me to write that conciliatory e-mail the next day. Even then, I refused to apologize for standing up for myself, but merely described how I was feeling. Still too much, I know.

I didn't agree with the divorce. I suggested it, and she had to go along to preserve her pride. She's been texting me several times per day since, with various kid issues. At first I was responding too quick, and too much, but now I'm only giving brief responses after hours or a day of delay.

Yes, I know her lingering obsession with OM is because he dumped her, over and over. She did everything she could to entice him, and he still said no, hurting her terribly. The hilarious thing is, I know her, and if he now did decide to move here, she would possibly run to him, but after she knew she really had him, eventually her anger over him dumping and hurting her would coming roaring in, and she'd dump him. The one thing I've realized through all this is, women don't forget. I had W pursuing me like crazy when we first met, because I played seriously hard to get. Once she decided she wanted out, she pointed to that and bashed me over the head with it, saying how unloved and unworthy I made her feel back at the beginning. It wasn't until after we had kids, and she knew she had me locked up, that she unleashed that resentment on me.

I will not be her 2nd choice. Time to get back to going out, dating, and having fun. Like I said before, the clock is ticking. If I meet the right woman, she will have lost me, and this sitch will finally be resolved.

[konfuseeed]

Thumbs up to that post.

[gucci loafer]

My sitch is very long, so you all might not know, but I have dumped her twice before. The first time was last December. Her A with OM had collapsed, and she came sniffing around, angry, totally lacking respect and remorse, and acting like I should be thankful she's giving me scraps. I soundly rejected her. She got extremely angry, gave me all sorts of "Now it's really over" crap, but I held firm. I barely spoke to her for almost six months. I did go out and date, I did have a ball. She absolutely did think she lost me. Even I thought maybe I was done with her. I was giving her nothing.

Future,
I just went back and read ALL of your last December's posts.
You are re-writing history in your mind. What you think happened and what really happened are not the same. You never dumped her. You never SOUNDLY rejected her. Not from the posts I read last December. You bought her a Christmas present, you bought her champagne for New Years and you sent her emails like this:

my W doesn't regret her affair [Re: Gnosis]

futureunknown
Member

Registered: 11/29/08
Posts: 925 I am pathetic. It's only been a week, and I'm starting to think I should reach back to her. I am embarassed to admit it here, but I'd rather do it here than do something stupid. Here are the thoughts I've been having this morning. Please give me 2x4's as necessary.

I finally laid out a clear boundary, that I would move on if she remained in her A with OM. She stalled for a couple months, forcing me to nail her down before Thanksgiving, but then she did tell me her A was over, so she obviously didn't want me to move on. I was hurt that she said it so begrudgingly, and that she still took some shots at our M in the process. This year has been so hard, I was so emotionally exhausted that I had nothing left to handle her ambivalent attitude over the whole thing. Inside I knew I should give her a couple months to start to heal from it before I made another move, I even told one of my friends that's what I was going to do, but after she acted so bitchy and distant on Thanksgiving and afterwards, I snapped. I wanted to take control of my life, so I sent her the e-mail. I wanted HER to be in crisis for a change. Why couldn't I just see my plan (waiting a couple months) as being in control of my life?

Now what I'm thinking is that I should talk to her face to face, tell her that sending her the e-mail was not an appropriate way to convey to her how I was feeling, that it was disrespectful and she deserved better. However, tell her that what I said in the e-mail is how I feel, that I can't be in limbo any more. I am usually able to disarm her with a kind attitude. She knows she hurt me terribly, and she is hurting over all this too, so I think a kind compassionate attitude will go a long way.

Assuming I can disarm her, then I'll ask her straight out "Do you want a divorce?" When she says "I don't know" which she almost certainly will, I'll strongly say "That is not an acceptable answer. Do you want a divorce?" If she says yes, then say "Then let's just get this done so we can both move on." If she says no, then say "So what are you going to do about it?" If she says "I don't know" I again say "Not an acceptable answer. What are you going to do about it?" Then wait and see what she says.

Notice I don't ever change my position in the above, I just disarm the negative emotions and request more information from her. Of course she will infer from my whole demeanor that the door isn't quite as shut as my e-mail said it was, but I think she'll understand that I'm at the end of my rope.

OR

I can just continue along the path I'm on, stay extremely distant, pursue the separation, and see if she reaches back to me.

Ok, whack away!

That is NOT dumping a woman.


And this:

Ok, again I'm weak. Again I'm worried I've pushed her away for good. Is she just so good at playing this game? Didn't sound like a game on the phone. She sounded sad, but accepting of the situation. How can SHE be the one who's heartbroken? This is crazy! Is she really putting this on me, that I'm the one who ended our M?

I want to call her back and say "W, don't put this on me. You're the one who had the A and moved out. You're the one who ended our M. I just refused to live in limbo any more. If you wanted to save our M, I made it clear I was open to it. I was looking forward to having fun with you, but you never once showed me in any way that's what you wanted. Just the opposite in fact. Offering that to you after what I've been through took enormous courage, and my offer was met with ambivalence and apathy."

Nowhere is that dumping a woman. You are changing history. You are only lying to yourself. You really need to stop lying to yourself. You are not fooling me,(maybe some others on here who don't want to hurt you) only yourself. Telling us you dumped her when that is not what happened is part of the reason you are still here going on what? three years. Shame on you.


Snapping at a wayward and writing them an angry nasty message sounding like you are done is NOT dumping them. This again is only fooling yourself. I recommend you get HONEST with yourself here.

[robx]

I will not be her 2nd choice. Time to get back to going out, dating, and having fun. Like I said before, the clock is ticking. If I meet the right woman, she will have lost me, and this sitch will finally be resolved.

Strong words but you can follow it up with real action this time?

[v1olin]

Hi Gucci,Rob and Future, I don't want to highjack this thread anymore so I wrote some new info in my thread on surviving. Thanks

[NotFromThesePart]

Future,

Just finished reading all 130+ pages of your sitch. Your first post could have been written by me. Reads like a novel. I wish I had words of wisdom that have not already been written. I'm sorry that I don't. I will say that gucci's most recent post rings true. You are re-writing history.

As an engineer (ok formerly an engineer) myself I see what you are doing. You are trying, repeatedly to engineer you M. I do think you might have had opportunities. But I won’t dwell on them. You seem to be at your best when you focus on your music and let go. I think you will never get the “remorse” you feel you deserve. If you are not OK with that, then I think you are the bottleneck here and you are making it harder on everyone.

I will say that I think I’ve learned a lot from you and your threads. I hope what I’ve learned isn’t true, but I fear that it is. Good luck, and stay around.

[Steve McQueen]

If I meet the right woman, she will have lost me, and this sitch will finally be resolved.

is this what you are waiting on? until you find another person.

Codependent?

and isn't this exactly what your wife wants? an open marriage. she's got someone on the side you have someone on the side.

[25yearsmlc]

Show her that you have changed or she'll never believe that marriage between you two can be better than before, and even you must realize it needs to be better, right?

She says the other country represents more than OM to her. Believe her. Are there other ways she can meet some of the needs it provides without going there? (Cuisine? Similar topagraphy or religion or whatever??)

I respectfully disagree 25,
he should NOT show her anything.
He has nothing to prove to her.
She had an affair with another man, not him.
Proving to her, or attempting to prove to her that he has "changed" does nothing but show pursuing, clinging behavior.

It doesn't work.
It will never work.

Robx,

I don't disagree as much as you may think. She is confused but...well, so what? My point is he has to be a different man to her, or the reasons she has/gave or thinks exist for leaving him, ARE no longer applicable. I suspect following most of your advice will impress upon her the changes without "impressing" them upon her, meaning, don't bother showing her. And as for the country and OM, first off, I don't think future should pursue. Sorry if that's confusing but my comment was for later, down the road IF AND WHEN applicable, if she's sincere, then fine, take a cooking class or whatever. This is not a "do now" item at all. It's just a long term suggestion if Future ever gets there. But as later posters said, if she's "still got him" what's to miss?

Dating OW (if your kids are protected and you're honest with the OW)...well, it sure seems to get noticed by WAS's. Sounds high schoolish, and it IS. IF it works, do it. IF it helps you heal, do it. And if you have the fear that dating OWs will somehow "let her off the hook", AND OR give her a reason "now" to REALLY divorce you, wake up. First, she's already let herself off the hook. and Guilt seemed to be there but it was not enough to get her home. Second, she IS divorcing you or at least not coming home. How can this hurt the R/M?
Take Robx's advice b/c it doesn't vary with my main point--you are a different man today. All your good qualities remain but now there are additional ones you are developing. Give her something to miss and no one misses what they know they can have.
LONG TERM-- if you get there--is that she'll have to know it's humanly possible to recover from this. And that's not easy. A lot of LBSers think the long term problem is the WAS cheating again but I know some couples who might have healed if the LBSer had been able to stop obsessing and GAL... it happens. But when I say lose the anger, I mean lose the lectures and angry arguments you find so persuasive. They're not. Anger, if controlled and justified, is not a turn off. That means you can't keep ranting and think she'll slap her forehead and say "OMG, NOW I GET IT" and come home. And If she fears you, you're out of luck But do something different, please.



She told him in their little coffee date that the reason why it didn't work out with the OM was because he wouldn't move to this country. She is telling him direct and to the point, that if he had moved here, she would be with the OM. The only reason she wants to be with Future is because he is the 2nd option, the backup plan if the affair with the OM didn't work out.

I've mentioned this scenario a million times on this site,
NEVER BE THE 2ND OPTION, NEVER BE THE BACK UP PLAN to a cheating spouse, to a spouse having an affair. Doing so communicates you have no real value, you're only good enough if the preferred plans don't work out. Who in their right mind would want to be someone's 2nd option?

Robx, I didn't find her comments nearly that clear on that point. She said something about "other reasons" for not being with him or for wanting to be with future BUT you;re right as far as her and the main point--she has NOT chosen to be with Future, and that's what counts, no matter what she "Feels"...2nd place? NO THANKS...


(and I always make a point of telling people to stand up for themselves and to stand up to WAS's "crap behavior") Definitely. Respect is a big part of love. You have to expect/demand it or walk out.

I'm glad you agreed with the divorce.
The more you resist, the more it persists. Besides, legally the most you can do is slow things down (gone are the days where a spouse "gave" the other a divorce) but you do not control whether a divorce is granted. It will be.

Now go out on a few dates,
I don't care if they're platonic, friendly only dates, just go out with a few different women. Start making yourself unavailable.

Up until this point, she hasn't had to fear losing you.
You've been there, proof of this, she knew you would be open to reconciliation after her stint with the OM.
In her mind she probably thought....
"It's ok if I screw around on Future, he's a nice guy, dependable, he'll always be there for me, he doesn't have any opinions of his own, he doesn't stand up for himself, he just takes what i give him, he's not very exciting, always agreeing with me but at least he's.... safe and he isn't going anywhere."

You really want her back,
give her the feeling that you're DONE with her.
A real feeling, nothing fake will work.

100% AGREEMENT
You won't get her back by showing her that you've changed.
You've changed?! Really?

THIS IS A CHANGE!! BUT IT'S NOT FOR HER, WHICH IS PART OF WHAT'S NEW...

I hear no mention of HER changes, hmmmm.... none whatsoever.
Because she's perfect as is, even if she cheats on you, openly admits that the reason she considers coming back is because the OM wouldn't move to this country, lies to you by telling you she loves the OM's country, she doesn't/didn't go there because of him (ummm.... please don't ever believe this, it's a lie, plain and simple, she's used to saying things to you and you just accepting it as truth).

IF the day comes that she clearly wants back in, THEN Future will have to set and enforce boundaries for recon. He has nothing to tell her on that issue now as he can rightly assume she's off with SOME OM and not worth his time and effort b/c he;s a great catch. Robx, if I'm not mistaken you wrote some suggestions for this scenario some time back, (wasn't it you??) and that may help down the road. (AS in specific Examples, etc.) And future, remember to be the best dad you can be as much as you can be and that's not a tactic, it's key to you and your kids' healthy R's in the future. They need you now more than ever. THey're watching you so show them what real men do when they get a blow to their heart. Dignity, strength and honor...(which HAPPEN to be attractive but are not the point...)

You need to stop talking to her,
you can let her contact you when necessary but you need to stop making first contact. Keep it about the kids, start going out, not just thinking about it, DOING IT! Go out on friendly dates, "social interactions" with other women, whatever you have to call it, just do it.

Yep...why not?

Read BTM's thread, the guy was in the same situation 4 years ago, on this board 4 years ago, his wife moved out, basically told him she wasn't coming back, he didn't confirm an affair but she lives on her own and he has the kids living with him. He spent several months and several hundred posts telling us he did things to show her he changed, and on top of that he kissed her butt every step of the way, trips, dinners, gifts, calling often, relationship talk, pursuing, needy, clingy behavior, you name it, he did and guess what, wife wasn't interested at all. He finally reaches his own personal threshold of how far he was willing to go, the switch inside his head finally gets flipped and he gives up on her (finally!), he accepts that she's gone, stops calling, stops pursuing, starts to get a real life, goes out with his friends, goes shopping, taking care of himself, starts dating and she finds out and all of a sudden, wonder o wonders, her feelings start to change, she shows jealousy, she compliments his look, she feels "gipped" that he's moving on, that some other woman is now going to get the "better" BTM, (she enjoyed the situation when she was the one moving on, when he finally accepted the situation and he really moved on, things changed), she felt dumped, she felt bitter, she now shows signs that she wants him back, she contacts him, and he continues acting as if it's over.

Future your wife kept pursuing the OM and still thinks about the OM because.... he dumped her several times. Gucci commented on this as well. That is reality, that is what works. Showing your wife that you've "changed" is not going to bring her back, you're going to have several more months of her crap cheating behavior if you're going to pursue her and show her you changed. You want to show her you've changed? If you really want to show her you've changed, show her for real that you've changed by moving on and leaving her behind and showing her that you won't accept this treatment from her anymore, showing her you have a mindset of abundance, there's a 1000 other women out there for you and there is only one YOU! That would be showing her you've changed, that would be showing her that you understand how she feels and that you now share the same feelings.

That's the only way you have a chance of this working,
you won't get her back by competing with the OM for her, that never works, you will always lose in that situation because you lose before the competition even begins.

Good luck bro, I hope you understand this and internalize this and make this your new reality.

[/color]

Semantics. Do as he says Future, I say, Change for YOU. If she comes back, deal with it. If not, so what? You'll have healed that much faster, thank GOD. Be the best man you can be and leave the results up to the big guy.

[futureunknown]

Future,
I just went back and read ALL of your last December's posts.
You are re-writing history in your mind. What you think happened and what really happened are not the same. You never dumped her. You never SOUNDLY rejected her. Not from the posts I read last December. You bought her a Christmas present, you bought her champagne for New Years

You are changing history. You are only lying to yourself. You really need to stop lying to yourself. You are not fooling me,(maybe some others on here who don't want to hurt you) only yourself. Telling us you dumped her when that is not what happened is part of the reason you are still here going on what? three years. Shame on you.

Ok, I will accept some of that, but it hasn't even been two years yet, and I'm fine with how I've grown in that time. I've met a lot of new people, done a lot of new things. What else can I want? I did dump her, at least as much as I can dump someone I'm intertwined with raising three little kids. It did take me some time. It was an enormous move for me to make, and I wavered at first, but I know where I got, and I was living my life for me. I was doing nothing to influence her feelings for me at all. I was far more interested in my music playing, and other women that were interested in me than I was in her. The Christmas present was a joke, and I did it because I felt a little Christmas spirit. The New Year's Eve champagne was because she offered to watch our sick youngest daughter so I could take the other kids to a New Year's Eve party. Perhaps I haven't made it clear, but this is a person I have to deal with nearly daily, and in most practical ways, she is kind and respectful to me. It's my choice whether I treat her like sh*t, or with some amount of basic human decency. On top of that, my kids are watching. What should I show them, that their Dad treats their Mom with cold disdain, in the face of her at least outward kindness toward me?

Also realize I am in an extremely precarious financial situation. In our state, she could be getting far more money from me that she does. Doesn't matter that she cheated, doesn't matter that she moved out. In this state, she is entitled to support based on state formulas. She is accepting FAR less, so I have incentive to not rock the boat too much. If I aggressively push for divorce, and if she gets desperate, I could be facing near financial ruin. Part of what I'm doing is keeping her appeased. I may have to eventually fight that fight, but every month that goes by between now and then solidifies my position.

Snapping at a wayward and writing them an angry nasty message sounding like you are done is NOT dumping them. This again is only fooling yourself. I recommend you get HONEST with yourself here.

I agree. Writing her that e-mail was absolutely NOT dumping her. I realized that later. It still was an important step for me to take, because she reacted with extreme anger, and for the first time, I didn't buckle and back down. The way I behaved, toward myself, and toward her, over the following months did feel like I significantly detached from her, and walked away. She had to do something desperate, like suing me, to get my attention back, so she must have felt pretty dumped! I use this board as a sounding board for a lot of thoughts and feelings that come up in me. Big difference between that and how I act toward her. I NEVER contact her. She continually contacts me. Ever since I sent that e-mail, our relationship has fundamentally changed. A couple weeks after I sent that message, and after we had that tough mediation session, I remember sitting at a pub having a beer, waiting for a good friend to come join me, and I sent him a text message saying "I'm free!", and I was, and I've felt that way since. I can do whatever I want.

Impossible to fully describe on this board how fundamentally I changed after I sent that message. My friends all saw it, after the dust settled. I reclaimed myself on that day, after being emotionally brutalized for over a year. Ever since that day, she has had to pursue me to keep me in her life. I never contact her, so if she stopped pursuing me, we would have NO contact at all, and I'd be fine with it. I never have to test my resolve on that very much, because she ALWAYS contacts me. She finds excuses, she does anything she can to try to keep me in her life.

gucci, you continually preach to go out and date other women. I do. All the time. W knows it, and hates it, but she knows she has absolutely no grounds to say anything about it. She tries to make little jokes about it to pry information out of me, but I see right through her. I give her nothing.

is this what you are waiting on? until you find another person.

Codependent?

and isn't this exactly what your wife wants? an open marriage. she's got someone on the side you have someone on the side.

I'm not waiting on finding another person. I just know that before I find another person, anything can happen, but if I emotionally commit to someone else, my W is out, for good. This sitch is resolved.

Under no definition am I codependent, except to some degree for raising the kids. I am dependent on her for help raising the kids, I admit it. She's dependent on me too. Other than that, we share no responsibilities, nothing financial, and we rarely spend any significant time together. I never initiate contact with her. How can that possibly be codependent? I'm far more dependent on a couple of my friends than I am on her!

We don't have an open marriage, because we don't have a marriage. We are still legally married, but in no other way.

[futureunknown]

Future,

Just finished reading all 130+ pages of your sitch. Your first post could have been written by me. Reads like a novel. I wish I had words of wisdom that have not already been written. I'm sorry that I don't. I will say that gucci's most recent post rings true. You are re-writing history.

As an engineer (ok formerly an engineer) myself I see what you are doing. You are trying, repeatedly to engineer you M. I do think you might have had opportunities. But I won’t dwell on them. You seem to be at your best when you focus on your music and let go. I think you will never get the “remorse” you feel you deserve. If you are not OK with that, then I think you are the bottleneck here and you are making it harder on everyone.

I will say that I think I’ve learned a lot from you and your threads. I hope what I’ve learned isn’t true, but I fear that it is. Good luck, and stay around.

Wow, thanks NotFromThesePart. Can't believe someone would take that kind of time to read my whole sitch. I've often felt my story here is incomplete because I started posting several months after it all started.

I don't know if I'm re-writing history, as much as summarizing, and zeroing in on only the parts I'm trying to emphasize. SMQ continually calls me on flip flopping, and I guess that's part of who I am, at least in my head. Much less of that flip flopping makes its way into my actual behavior.

I also fear I may never get that remorse. We'll see. I was actually surprised at the remorse my W showed me last week. If I never get it, I never get it. I don't need it for me anymore, but it is required for any hope of reconciling. No one else here sees my W, interacts with her. She's either the world's greatest actor, or she is still very attached to me, and doesn't want to lose me. Unfortunately for her, she showed her hand two years ago when all this started. I now know very well how she acts when she's lying and manipulating me. What I feel from her now is much more like confusion and desperation.

Not sure what you mean when you say I'm engineering my M. I am a very logical person, so that's certainly always present. I'm just doing the best I can. My W and I get along very well, and we share three little kids. There are many advantages to reconciling, so I'm open to it. I have lived without her so long that I don't long for her at all. As I've said here many times recently, I'm afraid of reconciling, as it would mean giving up a lot in my life. Another part of me believes it could be a really good thing.