The forum shuts down for a week and all h*ll breaks loose in my sitch.
I went out to dinner with W on Sunday night, and we had a great time. I maintained better boundaries this time though, and other than a little goodbye making out, kept it to just talk. The next day she texts me that she wants to meet me for a drink. We arrange a time, and when I get there, I can tell she's in an odd mood. She starts telling me about her session with our MC today. About how she's not sure she can ever find someone she can be with. About how she feels like her comfort zone for men is so narrow as to be impossible. I validate and support her, and tease her a little. We get closer and closer, and eventually we're enthusiastically talking about Retrouvaille. She expresses regret and sensitivity about how her relationship with OM's country must hurt me. She tries to reassure me that her feelings for that country go far beyond anything to do with him, but she asks me if I'd prefer if she puts all the stuff from OM's country away. I said it would be good, at least for a while.
She very sincerely apologized for the hurt she's caused me. She said she was asked to have coffee with a old friend of ours, whose wife died a few years ago, and she said that although it is nothing but a friendly gettogether, she asked if I'd rather she cancelled it and didn't go. I said "The fact that you brought it up probably means you should cancel it." She smiled and said "Ok."
Some talk of OM did come up. She said our reconciliation attempts earlier in the summer were derailed because she was still grieving OM, then she said "Actually, I was grieving what I THOUGHT that relationship was. I was convinced you could never love me as much as him."
It was going so well, out of nowhere. I thought this is my chance to get her to hopefully give the answer to a question I needed to ask. I said "W, you've told me how much you loved him, and he loved you, so I have to ask, what's the problem?" Without blinking an eye, she answered back "He won't move here." Definitely not the answer I was looking for.
The entire conversation pivoted. I felt like an idiot. I said "I was afraid you were going to say that, there's nothing else for us to talk about" and I got up to leave. She stopped me and said "No! Don't." I sat back down. I said "So because he won't move here, you might as well try to patch up your marriage." She said "No, it's more than that." I was getting extremely defensive. I said "W, why won't he move here?" She said "Because he doesn't love me enough." I said "W, he broke up with you after every time you went to see him." She looked surprised, and denied it. Then I said "W, you had a leak (as in an information leak)." She looked horrified, and said "Who was it? It was either X or Y. Who was it? Now I don't feel like I can trust anyone." I said "It wasn't anyone. You were the leak. I could see it in you each time."
She was getting angry, and started to defend him, saying I don't understand. I should have STOPPED, but my anger took over. She said "He loved me in a way you never did." I said "W, he didn't love you. He used you, and you kept throwing yourself at him." She said "Ok, so now I'm dealing with ugly and angry H, ok. I'm still not bailing on this, but I have to stop this now."
Of course I didn't stop, because I'm a moron. I started in on how her claims that our M were over before she got involved with OM were bunk, and I recounted several stories about how she reached out to me, while professing her love for him. I said "So when were we over during all this?" She denied it all, and got angrier. I said "What would you do if he walked in here right now?" She said "I don't know." I said "Maybe you should find out." She said "How can I find out?" I said "That's not my problem."
We left, and she started crying in her car. She said "I'm never going to open myself up to anyone again." My anger was gone, and I said "W, I had to get that stuff out. I had to." She closed the door to her car and drove away.
I did send her a conciliatory e-mail today, saying how that stuff had been inside me for so long, and how I felt like if we were to have any hope, I needed to get it out. I told her I was angry because I hated myself at not being stronger and forcing her to make a clear decision. I told her I wasn't in a position to comment on what her relationship with OM meant because it was impossible for me to be objective about it.
She responded tonight with an e-mail that told me she forgave me, but how our conversation proved it doesn't work between us, and there was nowhere to go.
I called her tonight, and agreed that it wasn't working. I said there was nothing left to do except to get divorced. She agreed. We did go around a few times, without anger, about what was said last night. I asked her "How can I consider you're serious about reconciliation when you say the only reason you're not with him is because he won't move here." She said "Because that's not the only reason." I said "You didn't give any other reasons last night." She said "I was feeling attacked." I said "I asked that question before our talk turned bad. In fact, we were doing so well, I thought this was a chance to ask that question, and put it to bed for good, but the answer you gave was not compatible with reconciliation." She said "You didn't care how I felt, I opened myself up, and you attacked me. I don't know exactly what was said when, and I'm not interested in disecting the conversation. You did what you've done so many times before, which is roll over me with your anger. I'm done, I can't do this anymore." I said "Ok." We both got sad, and she said "The only thing that matters now is the kids." I said "Ok, I guess that's it." She said "Let's agree never to break each other's heart again, ok?" I said "Ok." Then she said "H, look at all we've been through, and how I've hung in trying to get this to work between us. Do you really think there isn't another reason why I'm not with him?" I said "Why didn't you say that last night? That was exactly what I was looking for." She gave no answer.
We agreed to hire a lawyer to draft up the no fault divorce papers. Although I don't entirely believe this is over, I feel awful. I went on autopilot. When she started defending her A, and OM, lost it. Although I feel I screwed up, she needed to be able to see my anger without bailing on us, if we are to have any chance to reconcile.
Just because it's easier to read your last post and the related posts that followed.
Future, (I refuse to use the initials for your username laugh )
you have done a good analysis. So Learn from this and change your dang behavior. Stop reinforcing the decision to divorce. Don't commit to it, but don't argue with her either. Let her discover the will to rediscover (which is what "retrovaille" means, literally) the marriage.
No more OM questions. Sure SOMEDAY if you do reconcile, get some answers but only after you are on surer footing. I don't want to rub your face in your mistakes, you know them. But I suggest you make a list of "To DO" along with the list of "Don'ts"...as in, when you two are comfortable with each other,DO stay in that moment and enjoy it. Don't comment on it (=pursuit) unless she does and then validate what she says. NO pushing. Teasing and flirting are fine, if the moment calls for it. But enough of the pushing when she's clearly on the fence. You're pushing her off. The mc meeting she had brought up some of her old doubts. You reminded her of those doubts. Leave those behind. People change. Show her that you have changed or she'll never believe that marriage between you two can be better than before, and even you must realize it needs to be better, right?
She says the other country represents more than OM to her. Believe her. Are there other ways she can meet some of the needs it provides without going there? (Cuisine? Similar topagraphy or religion or whatever??) For now, it's not your problem. Your life is your responsibility now without obsessing about your w and you are doing so much mind reading. Not helpful. Counterproductive really. My DB coach was great. Here's what she told me and maybe it'll help some of your sitch. 1) Lose the anger, at least in front of her. She does NOT need to see it. She surely knows you are angry and if there's never going to be a way to get past your anger, you two are better off divorced....seriously. (NOTE As an LBSer myself, I admit now that one huge obstacle to recon is our own resistance to losing the anger we feel entitled to. Maybe we ARE ENTITLED to it, but is it helpful? Not so much. Hardest lesson of all this for me was letting go of the past errors even though I didn't know if my h fully understood how much pain and unfair damage he'd done to our family. I will never know if he does. And so? Do we end the marriages even though they want back in, b/c we don't think they've suffered enough?
2) Be upbeat, GAL with a PMA as much as possible. Give her something to miss. The new you is "busy meeting interesting people, going to exciting places and doing fun fascinating things!!" cool This is the new you to whom she'd be married and therefore, the marriage would be the improved version! You're bringing a lot to the table; even more than before. Show your confidence and that you are a great catch. Many women do appreciate their men more when they realize other women appreciate them. Childish? Sure. Do men do it too? Heck yes...oh well. (A little mystery would not hurt either)
3) Really be WITH your kids. Fully present and not preoccupied with how your wife is feelign or what she's doing or will think, etc but just lovingly interacting with your kids. NO MOTHER IS UNMOVED by the loving interaction of her children with their father. (She pretty much verified that for you too). Use that.
Wow Future, we must be on the same wavelength or something...I also "lost it" in a way. I decided to enforce a simple boundary about where and how I would pick up our kids on my fridays. I have been picking them up from my mother in -laws house for the last 18 months. Well, now we are divorced and that seems like the wrong thing to be doing for me. I told her I needed the change and she would not help make it happen. I told her, "either the kids go to school instead of Nana's house or you pick them up from Nana's and bring them to me." She would NOT make the tiny sacrifice in her schedule and I told her I was done talking-hung up on her.
She tried calling me atleast 15 times in a row and I ignored every one. She texted a few times and finally she caved in and agreed. I told her to send the kids out to me when I pick them up and she can stay inside.
I have a hot date coming up with a salsa dancer and I will not hold back one bit.
From Gucci.... Fascinating to observe that you both want someone who doesn't want you back.
And yet you fail to get it through your head that the very thing that will give you your best chance to turn this around is to do what works. The FACT is that what the OM did WORKED..
He dumped HER.. She still pines for him deep inside her heart. Her ego is bruised because he DUMPED her...
Women HATE to be dumped... (which is why the facts show that YOU should dump her too. She obviously responds better to men who can take or leave her.
Fascinating that you can't see or understand why what you keep doing doesn't work. Fascinating.
Show her that you have changed or she'll never believe that marriage between you two can be better than before, and even you must realize it needs to be better, right?
She says the other country represents more than OM to her. Believe her. Are there other ways she can meet some of the needs it provides without going there? (Cuisine? Similar topagraphy or religion or whatever??)
I respectfully disagree 25, he should NOT show her anything. He has nothing to prove to her. She had an affair with another man, not him. Proving to her, or attempting to prove to her that he has "changed" does nothing but show pursuing, clinging behavior.
It doesn't work. It will never work.
She told him in their little coffee date that the reason why it didn't work out with the OM was because he wouldn't move to this country. She is telling him direct and to the point, that if he had moved here, she would be with the OM. The only reason she wants to be with Future is because he is the 2nd option, the backup plan if the affair with the OM didn't work out.
I've mentioned this scenario a million times on this site, NEVER BE THE 2ND OPTION, NEVER BE THE BACK UP PLAN to a cheating spouse, to a spouse having an affair. Doing so communicates you have no real value, you're only good enough if the preferred plans don't work out. Who in their right mind would want to be someone's 2nd option?
Future as long as you didn't go batshitcrazy when you got angry with her and started being honest, I don't think the anger did any harm. If you got all emotional, weepy, wussy, teary eyed then yeah, you did wrong but from the sounds of it, you didn't go that far. You got angry, stood up for yourself (and I always make a point of telling people to stand up for themselves and to stand up to WAS's "crap behavior")
I'm glad you agreed with the divorce.
Now go out on a few dates, I don't care if they're platonic, friendly only dates, just go out with a few different women. Start making yourself unavailable.
Up until this point, she hasn't had to fear losing you. You've been there, proof of this, she knew you would be open to reconciliation after her stint with the OM. In her mind she probably thought.... "It's ok if I screw around on Future, he's a nice guy, dependable, he'll always be there for me, he doesn't have any opinions of his own, he doesn't stand up for himself, he just takes what i give him, he's not very exciting, always agreeing with me but at least he's.... safe and he isn't going anywhere."
You really want her back, give her the feeling that you're DONE with her. A real feeling, nothing fake will work. The feeling that you've decided that she isn't good enough for you, that waiting around for someone who cheats on you isn't good enough for you, someone who would do this to you and then just waltz back into your life because things didn't work out with the OM, well that is unacceptable to you.
You won't get her back by showing her that you've changed. You've changed?! Really? I hear no mention of HER changes, hmmmm.... none whatsoever. Because she's perfect as is, even if she cheats on you, openly admits that the reason she considers coming back is because the OM wouldn't move to this country, lies to you by telling you she loves the OM's country, she doesn't/didn't go there because of him (ummm.... please don't ever believe this, it's a lie, plain and simple, she's used to saying things to you and you just accepting it as truth).
You need to stop talking to her, you can let her contact you when necessary but you need to stop making first contact. Keep it about the kids, start going out, not just thinking about it, DOING IT! Go out on friendly dates, "social interactions" with other women, whatever you have to call it, just do it.
Read BTM's thread, the guy was in the same situation 4 years ago, on this board 4 years ago, his wife moved out, basically told him she wasn't coming back, he didn't confirm an affair but she lives on her own and he has the kids living with him. He spent several months and several hundred posts telling us he did things to show her he changed, and on top of that he kissed her butt every step of the way, trips, dinners, gifts, calling often, relationship talk, pursuing, needy, clingy behavior, you name it, he did and guess what, wife wasn't interested at all. He finally reaches his own personal threshold of how far he was willing to go, the switch inside his head finally gets flipped and he gives up on her (finally!), he accepts that she's gone, stops calling, stops pursuing, starts to get a real life, goes out with his friends, goes shopping, taking care of himself, starts dating and she finds out and all of a sudden, wonder o wonders, her feelings start to change, she shows jealousy, she compliments his look, she feels "gipped" that he's moving on, that some other woman is now going to get the "better" BTM, (she enjoyed the situation when she was the one moving on, when he finally accepted the situation and he really moved on, things changed), she felt dumped, she felt bitter, she now shows signs that she wants him back, she contacts him, and he continues acting as if it's over.
Future your wife kept pursuing the OM and still thinks about the OM because.... he dumped her several times. Gucci commented on this as well. That is reality, that is what works. Showing your wife that you've "changed" is not going to bring her back, you're going to have several more months of her crap cheating behavior if you're going to pursue her and show her you changed. You want to show her you've changed? If you really want to show her you've changed, show her for real that you've changed by moving on and leaving her behind and showing her that you won't accept this treatment from her anymore, showing her you have a mindset of abundance, there's a 1000 other women out there for you and there is only one YOU! That would be showing her you've changed, that would be showing her that you understand how she feels and that you now share the same feelings.
That's the only way you have a chance of this working, you won't get her back by competing with the OM for her, that never works, you will always lose in that situation because you lose before the competition even begins.
Good luck bro, I hope you understand this and internalize this and make this your new reality.
Future, I did think that you should have kept walking when she yelled "no!" that would have worked better than sitting bacck down and having a conversation.
Me 35 Wife 34 Two daughters 8 years and 3 years Bomb 3/30/09 W filed 4/16/09 We met in'92 married in 2000 Divorce final
Gucci, I know she doesn't want me but how do you suggest "dumping" a woman that does not give two farts about me?
A good start is HAPPILY going out and socially intereacting with other women (some call it dating)
Have the time of your life... Live it to the fullest and show these other women a good time..Be happy, be funny. Enjoy their company...
Ignore your WS. If she calls be pleasant and cordial, but end call early each and every time. Be mysterious and don't give out any information to her. Let her feel that YOU are the one who now wants this and is GLAD. You had an awakening and can't believe you tried to save this relationship. What WERE you thinking...
I find it interesting that you don't know how to dump a woman.
