How should I proceed now? Is there hope?

[NotCrackingUp]

Thanks Dagny and Pinhead.

Dagny, even though you don't know me, apart from these postings, I felt cheered by the "when he comes back". Positive. I need it tonight, as it happens.

I fully realize that as it's me telling the story, no-one here gets his side of the story, and since he won't talk much and doesn't analyse anything at all, not even I or worse still his children are getting his side of the story.

I know that although he could never doubt my feelings for him, I didn't show him love IN THE WAY HE NEEDED TO SEE IT as often as he needed it. He felt rejected and didn't open up about it. I didn't let myself go, but neither did I spend much time on my appearance, and it bothered him more than he ever said. I'm a dreamer, I'm a slow mover sometimes, though I do get things done and pay attention to detail. He's a very practical person, goes through life with a never-ending list of things to do running on without end in his head, can't relax unless forced to (snowed in, his arm in a sling, something like that).My dreaminess and imagination attracted him, yet he found them irritating day - to - day.

All I can really fault him for is turning towards this OW at a time when we were both under pressure at work, and going into an affair rather than trying to talk it through with me.And then blaming me for the whole thing when it came out and turning against me. He's a person who prefers action to words, can't even really express what's going on inside, doesn't have access to it and refuses to confide. Even now, when I feel he's very alone, he doesn't seem able to confide in anyone or stand back from the issues involved at all. I feel a great mixture of feelings when I see him, like I did briefly this evening. I still feel love, and it hurts; I feel anger that can't go anywhere, and a great sense of pity and sorrow for the corner he seems to have painted himself into.

I can talk about detaching, and I'm trying to fill up my life with things to help and help me long-term, but I'm still so concerned for him and can't do anything about it, it's frustrating.

He came over to bring children 2 and 3 home this evening. He was pleasant, no more of the cold, hard carry-on of a month ago and before. So that's better. But his eldest is here, she's intelligent and mature, but she's still a child and yet he won't try to talk to her and break the ice. He gives her a kiss hello and goodbye, as to me. He tries vaguely to include her in the conversation, but only very tentatively. As she only answers "yes" and "no", it doesn't go far. He should try to put his arms round her, tell her he loves her, but he's too afraid of her reaction or too proud (?). So nothing. I'm frightened about what this is doing to her and to him. The other two tell me he does lots with them, but never wants to talk about what's really bothering them, how he's feeling, etc. If they try asking him any questions, he either gets angry (I don't wish to discuss this) or changes the subject. They say they don't get too many hugs from him either. He USED to be an affectionate father, if a little strict (that was no harm). Now he seems to have withdrawn from all of his children.There's this elephant standing between him and them and he's refusing to acknowledge its presence, hoping it'll go away eventually of its own accord. He was always a bit enigmatic about things, I used to act as go-between sometimes, to explain and smooth out. Now I can't make out what's going on, so I can't explain anymore. I tell them he's going through a very rough patch, and to be affectionate with him, that's all I can do. If he cuts off from his children's inner lives, he'll become totally dehumanized.

This evening, he started in on a list of things I must get done before the winter: getting boilers cleaned, chimneys swept and sceptic tank emptied... He's told me before, but I listened again.

Then he spoke of a change in his week's schedule, so I'll have all three all week this time. That's fine, his work schedule can be eratic sometimes. I'd prefer them here rather than with some sitter in a flat in town. Then he started to say how he'd be starting work on the mending of some outbuildings that are rented to a neighbour. The farmland and outbuildings are property of the five siblings, his brother, 3 sisters and himself, in equal parts. Since we bought the farmhouse and live here (now just me), my H has always done the lion's share of maintenance on lands and buildings rented out to neighbouring farmers. He took on the responsibility, the others would have been happy to use joint funds (moneys from rent etc.) to pay someone to do the work. When he exploded all over me in May, one of the "reasons" he gave to his siblings was that he felt all alone in doing maintenance work and keeping accounts, he was sick of it all. They never expected him to take on all that work (but never discouraged him either, just said nothing).Now he's gone out of the place, nice a,nd cosy in his flat away from it all, and he's planning to be back to fix up some stupid old shack. I nearly flipped. I kept my cool, but I said to him that I didn't understand how he could still intend to spend time and effort on something that contributed to his leaving the house, while the joint family property account could easily pay for someone professional to do the work, and his time would be his own. I don't know if he took my point. He just nodded and said "okay" or something. Full of contradictions. The things he complained about he's coming back for more of, but won't spend any time trying to get himself straightened out. By that I don't mean - so he'll see the light and come back to me. I mean, whatever he does, he can't just live life charging head first into ACTION without ever reflecting on what's going on in his head.

He's calmed down, but still hasn't tried to question the way he functions, and blow me, if he continues that way, he'll just go on and make the same mistakes again with me or someone else.And especially with his children.I seriously want to help him see that he has to think about what went wrong, but I can't argue with him now or try to influence him.

I managed to stay pleasant and friendly and outwardly relaxed. He had tea with us, then left (kiss on the cheek again). This evening, avoided looking at me (yesterday was all eyes) and was ok but walled in. Ups and downs. I spend too much time trying to read his actions and reactions as if they were tea-leaves in a cup, but I suppose if the truth were told, I often had to do just that in the past. He used to speak, is very sociable and used to tell me he loved me, etc., but I always had to check for subtext from his gestures and expressions. Now he's not really speaking, gestures and expressions are all I have to go on, and I can only say that what I see changes hourly, it would seem.
When will I stop torturing myself trying to "read" him like some oracle?
NCU

[NotCrackingUp]

Pinhead,

I read a good bit of your story last night. How it hurts to hear your spouse tell you he/she doesn't feel love or desire for you anymore. I was crushed and still am as a result of what happened to me, I could identify with your feelings too. On reading your posts, I thought about the fact that a lot of the anger and rejection our spouses showed is probably not addressed to the right target at all. I know I was partly at fault in what went wrong, and you too acknowledge some faults, but I'm sure now that my H was also exploding over problems that went away back into childhood and adolescence, issues between himself and his mother and brother and sisters that had nothing to do with me. Roles he'd taken on, jealousies and frustrations he'd never outed.That's not a cop-out, I'm not saying I'm an innocent victim, but I'm realizing that there were other forces at work of which I'd no knowledge or control. Your W seemed to have similar anger directed towards you but springing from outside you too.
I read in one of the many books I trawled through this summer (after the H had bolted, sadly), that in a domestic row, the angriest words shouted by one spouse to another are really directed towards the parent of the opposte sex. Sounds strange, but think about it.

I live in the same yard as my mother-in-law, a nice woman I love dearly. She used to see her son every day I was away at work, cook his lunch for him, etc. When he split from me, he very quickly also split from her, hardly speaks to her, never goes to see her when he comes here. He'd always been close to his own family, now avoids them like the plague. I sometimes feel he took out an easy target, but was actually aiming at something else much wider, a way of life, a role he didn't care for. If he still felt a "child", living in the childhood home, under Mum's eye, did he suddenly want out of a "package" of which I was just an element?Maybe I became like a younger version of "mum" and he couldn't feel sexual about me anymore? I'm convinced he's got lots of growing up and addressing issues to do, and many of the issues in question have nothing direct to do with me.

I'm glad to read that now you and your W are talking and listening. How did you get to the stage where that was again possible? Beyond anger and silence to dialogue? Has she revived her feelings of love for you? Has prayting helped you? Please give me a few pointers. Was there any action you took that was decisive? I hope you're out of the woods, or at least in a very wide clearing from which you can see the sky.
NCU

[pinhead]

NCU,

I'm leery of pointing to anything I did as a good example of DBing. I've broken most of the rules repeatedly, and our outcome is definitely not assured.

We've always been able to talk to each other; listening has been the hard part. My wife is still angry about being neglected, and she's famous for holding grudges.

I don't really know what changed her mind towards working on the marriage. I know that our daughters are a big reason she's staying around. Plus the fear of making a hasty decision in leaving our relationship.

Probably the biggest turning point was when I dumped her. We ended up ML for the first time in months that night, and the next morning, things just seemed different between us. We talked about continuing our MC counseling, and now the topic of D and S don't even come up.

I don't know if her feelings have come back yet. We've been intimate once since, but we still have big issues. We're much more honest about somethings, but some topics are left alone for now. It's hard for her to display affection; something I really want. I definitely don't think we're out of the woods; the odds are pretty high against us really.

She's been gone for a week visiting a girlfriend and some family. I tried to give her as much space as possible on this trip, and hopefully it'll have helped her think about our sitch.

Prayer has helped a lot. Knowing that I can handle this, and that I'll be okay no matter the outcome makes it easier to weather the tough times. And I expect those tough times to last for quite a while.

[NotCrackingUp]

Thanks Pinhead.
It sounds good to me. She's still at home, you've managed to be intimate, you can talk, even though not about everything. Giving her space must be difficult, especially if you thought at one stage there might have been someone else. the lack of affection is horrible, I feel for you there. My children give me affection, but I long for that simply wonderful feeling of an adult's arms around me and feel desperately lonely at times. Not to mind sex, just closeness, the feeling that you're there for someone and they're there for you. I tell myself it'll be my turn again sometime, only I hope this doesn't go on for too long.

My H said recently (start of September, one evening when I broke down, broke the rules and called him, crying) that if he came back, it would probably be for the children. Angrily and with a certain amount of contempt. That hurt so much, but made me pull myself up short and put an end to a painful conversation in which I was getting no respect and showing need. He listed all the things that were wrong with me (my body, my clothes, my housekeeping...) and made me feel very small that evening. It was a turning point for me. The following morning, he came 'round and when I had him alone, I got angry with him for the first time. Said I refused to jump through hoops just for the "hope" he might deign to come back, said I refused to listen to any more reproaches, while he demanded perfection from others and had fallen very short himself. It cleared the air and he's been a lot less arrogant since.I'm not a monster, other men find me attractive, I have started taking more care of my appearance and dress, the house has always been clean and he never lifted a finger indoors himself. He didn't like me spending money on frivolities, our moneys were pooled, so I didn't go shopping that often, or trekking to beauty salons! I realized his arguments were threadbare, it was just easy to hit my guilt buttons. Anyway, now I wonder, if he decides to "come back for the children", how to take it? Part of me just wants him back, but most of me now says "not under just any conditions". He's either willing to work on the marriage or he's out for good. I couldn't face walking on eggshells in my own house, feeling him "suffering" my presence for the sake of the kids, never being quite able to measure up.
Is that too hard a line to take? Should I be prepared to take him back under that kind of condition,then divorce-bust like crazy? I ask because I have a feeling that's the way it will be, if only because of his own pride. I can't see him saying he's sorry for the hurt and being willing to come back as a loving and contrite spouse.

I've always prayed, but have never gone as deeply into it as during the last 5 months, and my prayers are answered with strength I thought I didn't possess. I can remain outwardly calm although I'm a wreck inside, thanks to prayer.Sometimes I wonder if God wants us to get back together at all, but I leave it in His hands.

NCU

[pinhead]

. Anyway, now I wonder, if he decides to "come back for the children", how to take it? Part of me just wants him back, but most of me now says "not under just any conditions". He's either willing to work on the marriage or he's out for good. I couldn't face walking on eggshells in my own house, feeling him "suffering" my presence for the sake of the kids, never being quite able to measure up.
Is that too hard a line to take? Should I be prepared to take him back under that kind of condition,then divorce-bust like crazy? I ask because I have a feeling that's the way it will be, if only because of his own pride. I can't see him saying he's sorry for the hurt and being willing to come back as a loving and contrite spouse.

I've always prayed, but have never gone as deeply into it as during the last 5 months, and my prayers are answered with strength I thought I didn't possess. I can remain outwardly calm although I'm a wreck inside, thanks to prayer.Sometimes I wonder if God wants us to get back together at all, but I leave it in His hands.

NCU

God hates divorce; make no mistake about it.

I would be careful about "settling," just to have him back. There's something to be said about having him around to see your efforts at DBing, but I think that unless you're both willing to work to improve your relationship, it'll just end up too painful for you. You'll always question everything he does, his motives etc. Not a healthy environment IMHO.

At one point, I was willing to settle; having my wife's company as well as her help in raising our daughters seemed the lesser of two evils. Then I realized how degrading that would be, that I was thinking I couldn't find anyone else, that I would take less than a soulmate. I couldn't live with myself after that; especially after getting the Bomb. I realized how much I had to live for, how good life could be, and that to deny myself real happiness would be the biggest mistake in my entire life.

I can't tell you what you should do. I just know that I couldn't live with myself (or my wife) knowing that she didn't really want to be there, or that I was her second choice.

[NotCrackingUp]

Thanks Pinhead.
That's the way I feel, myself. I've never been very confident, his love was the basis of my confidence as a woman. So for a while, I was willing to take anything, just to have him around. He lived here for the best pârt of 3 months in another room, coming and going as he pleased, hardly speaking to me, going out inthe evenings and returning late... At that time, we ML once, and as soon as it was over he said it was a "mistake", to read nothing into it, it was merely a "mechanical" reaction that any man would have. This from my H of 14 years. I took that rum behaviour lying down because I was needy and felt it was all I deserved. Although I feel loneliness now, I wouldn't accept that any more. I've begun to see that not every man sees me as my H came to see me. that I deserve happiness and dignity in a relationship. I was taught to forgive, to turn the other cheek, see Christ in everyone, but I suppose also that if our bodies and persons are preciousto God, we must respect ourselves and not let others walk all over us. And I wouldn't want my children to see me accept shoddy behaviour in the name of "love". That'd do them more damage than all of this has up to now. The question is, how to make those limits clear to my H without wrecking any chance of reconciliation. He used to be a good man and loving husband, some kind of personal crisis, outside influences and an OW very different (demanding, ultra -sexy, at home with her body, very into surface appearance) to me have made him show another side to me. I'll have to play it by ear, but retain respect for myself even if it's tough.
NCU

[kara]

Hello NCU

Just popping by to say hi.

You will find a way to leave the door open a crack to your husband should you both decide that you want to work on the marriage. The thing about "tough love" is that it is an act of "love". Having enough love for yourself and your H to remove yourself from a disrespectful situation which, if continued, will erode all respect and love between you. This breathing space is essential. It is good to rediscover yourself and who you are outside of a M, especially a long one. Use the time wisely and if and when your H comes around, it will all stand you in good stead.

[NotCrackingUp]

Thanks Kara.

The operative words in your reply are "should you both decide that you want to work on the marriage". Especially "both". Despite the advice in the DR book that it "takes one to tango", I feel I've come to the end of the road on that, for the present. Nothing but tangled brushwood ahead. I'll have to get out the machete and hack out a path onwards.

I was very focussed at first on my own pain, but now that I've calmed down a bit, I'm beginning to worry very much for my kids. My H seems to think that as long as they're not dossing from school, stealing cars and attacking old ladies, everything is going swimmingly. They've always been a little in awe of their Dad's short temper, and so don't act up with him, but I'm seeing temper tantrums, concentration problems at school, bad dreams and even outbursts of anger from my quiet 13-yr old. He's not seeing this, and when I've said it, he seems to take it as me laying on the violins to make him feel guilty. They feel let down by him, cut off from him. I'm worried for them AND for him; he was very proud of his children, but apart from buying them things and taking them on jaunts now (2 out of 3, only), he's keeping his distance and not giving them fatherly affection and support. If this situation becomes entrenched - he's got freedom and a "fold-up family" for part of every second week, the single life, so I'm afraid it will - he'll grow away from them entirely.

Will it get to the point where he doesn't feel connected to them any more? I know our marital bond was different, but it was very strong for a long time, yet he seems to have let it slip off him so easily, never to feel any need of it now, although I know that despite what he's said recently, it was very important to him in the past.

I'm also wondering about myself. I have friends, though not many close ones (I'd rather put all my eggs into the husband and family basket) and my own family (in Ireland). But I do feel the need of company. I've started work in a new school environment, a very close-knit team, very welcoming. There's a colleague who's showing some interest; I'm friendly, no more, but (I can write it here, you can all be shocked, but that's what this is for, airing questions) I'm finding that I like this interest. What if I get asked out? Do I flee like Cinderella, leaving a shoe on the stairs? I love my husband, but he doesn't want that love. I'm lonely and crushed. I don't honestly know if I'd resist the temptation to date if it came my way. After all, that's what he's up to. But two wrongs never made a right, I'd be doing wrong. I feel as if my life is suspended in mid-air.What are your (plural) feelings and rules about dating while "getting a life"?

Don't worry, I know in my heart of hearts that I'm too old-fashioned and still in love with my husband to become a femme fatale. But I was flirted with definitely this afternoon, and it made me feel good. Do I avoid this fellow like the plague from now on or what? It certainly boosted my confidence a little.
NCU

[pinhead]

Dag,

Hope your doing okay.

As far as your husband losing connection with his kids: yep that can happen. My dad left my mom when I was 8, saw him once a year in the summer for a month. Now he's really just a sperm donor to me; my stepfather is my real Dad.

But you can't worry about his relations with them. You can only give them your love and affection.

Good on you for the flirting! Doesn't that make you feel alive? I can't tell you whether to date or not, but flirting is alright in my book. You've only been separated for a short time though, so I would be very cautious about dating. I couldn't do it, though I'd love to have the attention.

[Dagny-2]

NCU,

I vote a very strong no to dating, this time is about you and re-energizing your life, don't complicate it with another man. If you are dating, could you look back at this time and be proud of your actions and know you did everything to save your M?

Surround yourself with girlfriends, call up some old friends, I've found that when I reached out to people they were very willing to help, to listen, people I haven't talked to in years, but they are here for me and it is amazing. Of course, they are all far away, but the phone calls and emails help get me through the days. And I've found that these blessings have been hidden because I don't tend to reach out and have made the kids and H the center of my universe.

So, what are your GAL goals?

Dagny