Discussion of the LBS cycles

[ericmsant2]

Lance,

I am not sure why you seem to think that I was speaking about you. I do not seem to reference anyone in particular, with the exception of Trapt. So...I guess my question to you would be...did anything I say "sting".

But since you asked me some questions I will answer...

Eric, did I say anything about a timeline?

No. Did I say YOU did?

Please show me those words.

I would IF i said that you wrote them and I did not.

Stages are not timelines.

I never said they were.

Please do NOT twist MY words around.

NOW....THIS ^^^^ kind of pissed me off. I guess the question that you may want to ask yourself if WHY would you believe that I am trying to twist your words - a little sting again. Lance, I respect your views and would request that you respect mine. Now, personally I think that you may be misreading what I posted...actually I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe I did not clearly communicate them. So let me clarify - MY POINT is that what we the LBS should do is focus on us - PERIOD. Any energy expanded on trying to put any MLCer in some sort of box is energy that could be spent focusing on oneself. I also appears to me like sometime people (noticed I did not specify anyone) try and come up with some sort of algorithm to help them determine where there spouse is in the process.

Because then you are GUILTY as charged.

Sorry your barking up the wrong tree. The only thing that I am guilty of is speaking my mind.

No one seemed to have any objections to the stages of the LBS months ago.
Why is it such a big deal now?

I am not sure anyone is objecting now to the stages of the LBS. I know that I am not. Hence - it is not a big deal to me. Is it too YOU? Why do you feel so inclined to "defend" your views and position? They are YOURS and you have every right to them. I was not attacking YOUR views - I was simply stating mine.

Does this mean that no one believes in the 6 stages of MLC?

ONE - I never said that I did not. TWO - I have read on other site, all sorts of other stages. I guess my point is ONCE again - should it really matter to the LBS? IMO - NO.

When you first arrive here, you cling to the stages, you spend countless hours trying to put your spouse into one of the stages. Does the information help you "cope", "understand", etc what you are dealing with and what your S is dealing with? Yes - BUT I believe that every ounce of our energy should be spent working on US AND NOT trying to determine what stage/phase our MLCer is in. IMO - this is where people can get stuck. Do I believe in standing (just in case you were wondering)? Yes I do.

the stages of LBS that LFW came up with closely resemble the stages of grief.

Yes they do. As a matter of fact they are consistent with the stages described in the journey from abandonment to healing book as well as various other publications.

Do you not believe in that too?

No I do believe in the stages of grief. I never said I did not.

I am not understanding you guys at all

Drink more, smoke a dubby, hit a hotel 6 with Grit and me and then ya may get "us". No seriously, Lance, I think you mis understood my post.

I can honestly say that I did not appreciate your response. You know Lance, you could have just asked me to clarify instead of responding to my post and hurling out accusations that I was referring you. Having said this...I'll say it again...if it stings....well you know.

Eric

[PEI]

Doesn't look to me like anyone is arguing the EXISTENCE of the LBS stages. I think what's in question is the usefulness or purpose of knowing what stage someone is in.

Living your life is something you should do for you, not because it might guide the MLCer through the tunnel. That's their journey, and I agree with Cat ... I don't want the responsibility attached to that statement either.

IMO of course.
PEI

[cat04]

I don't know if anyone here actually has a problem with the stages persay...

It may be more with the idea of trying to place oneself in one that is a bit difficult...

If I had to pick one, I would say that I am in the final stage, but I also experience many of the others daily.

At 3 and a half years post bomb #948, I am very comfortable saying that.

Looking back, at year one post bomb...I was no where close to where I am now, in fact, I would guess that I was probably still stuck in denial and barganing at that time. Then came bomb who knows what, and that catapaulted me into the next set of stages, anger, depression, resentment. I also stayed there for quite a while, but at the time, you couldn't convince me of that. I thought I was ready and able to accept and move forward.

That would be year 1 to 2. I grew a lot in that year. I began to really and truly heal. I began to forgive, get to know me, and really get to the point of acceptance. Somewhere after the 2 year mark, I began to really move forward, into the final stages until I just "got" there.

I can see it now. I couldn't see it then. I, like others here, tried to rush the process. I became stuck for a while. I cycled and moved and went backwards and forwards, until I was comfortable with me.

Personally, I think a lot of it was because I wanted so badly to get to the "end" and I was very concerned how that would affect my MLCer.

I wanted him to see the "lighthouse" and be drawn to it, but I didn't want to get too far ahead of him. So the fog wouldn't get too thick. I was scared still.

It took me letting go of the FEAR, more than letting go of the MLCer, that propelled me along further.

Has my MLCer run to catch up? I don't know. I have seen him move forward and backwards, but I can't and don't let that affect me.

I think the word "lead" may be what is causing a bit of a problem. I know for me it does. I don't think we can lead, but maybe we can hope that they will follow. Or at least look for the lighthouse if and when they reach "port".

[handlingplanb]

I would just like to throw out there, again, that knowing or understanding that there are "stages" for the LBS is useful in that it helps us understand that all of THIS is a process that we go through. This journey that we are on albeit (for most of us) not by our choosing is a long crazy trip that does not (and cannot) have a defined path. I think the more I understand this, the more I will not be so hard on myself for feeling stuck.

Yes, I can identify where I think I am in the process. Am I going to dwell on it? No. But, it helps me understand that I have a lot more work to do. I've spent way too much time beating myself up about the fact that I can't just flip the switch and be DONE. Appreciating and understanding that this is a journey - a marathon, not a sprint - will help me (and hopefully others) understand that what we are feeling and going through is a process.

I didn't spend (much) time on trying to determine what stage my MLC'er is in - but reading the descriptions of the battle going on inside them helps me understand how truly screwed up their world must be.

[LanceSijan]

Eric

If I misunderstood what you wrote, I am sorry.
If what I said stung, then you and GRIT give excellent advice about that.

This thread was suppose to be about the "LBS CYCLES", I still think that their is merit in discussing it.
If we can try to keep to that, and remember what we are talking about is within that framework, I think maybe we should continue that discussion.
I am still up for it.

For any newbies reading this thread:
I will save you lots of time trying to figure out what stage your MLC'er" is in. REPLAY

[LanceSijan]

At 3 and a half years post bomb #948,

Just so I understand is "#948" the amount of times you have been bombed?

The word lead.
Mostly All the advice on these boards is how to lead.
Lead means that you must take your journey and "hope" your MLC'er will follow.
Your MLC'er is not someone that you can control.
We all know that.

You must trust that there are other "forces" at work that you can not see.

I see the stages as a training ground.
Each stage plants the seed for growth down the road.

I say that detachment is the single most important thing that we as LBS must learn.
Besides what that does for us early in the crisis it plants the seed for what you must do at the end.
For at the end during reconnection you must learn how to reconnect and detach very quickly.

Reconnection for our MLC'er is accomplished first with things,then animals, kids, and FINALLY with us.
Again a training process so that the crisis can be completed.

If it is derailed at any point we are sent back to relearn our lessons.

If the LBS remains undetached the MLC'er will smell that and test your resolve.
You will be sent back again to relearn that lesson prolonging
your MLC'er crisis.

This is what I mean by leading.
I hope that is clearer.

[PEI]

Although the strict definition of the word lead is "to show the way to by going in advance", I still think it implies an investment in the other "following". Otherwise, you wouldn't be leading, you would just be doing? No? And for me, an investment in the other following is not condusive to detachment. Slippery slope as far as I'm concerned.

I agree that knowledge of of the stages is important for compassion (both towards our MLCer and ourselves), understanding and growth. And knowing that cycling is normal and part of the healing process is also very important. I just don't see how dedicating large amounts of time to trying to figure out where each of you are in the process is healthy, detached or purposeful ... when quite honestly it's likely that neither can objectively evaluate from the "inside" anyway (at least not without the benefit of hindsight).

This journey that we are on albeit (for most of us) not by our choosing is a long crazy trip that does not (and cannot) have a defined path. I think the more I understand this, the more I will not be so hard on myself for feeling stuck.

I would think that being on a path and moving would leave one not feeling "stuck" ... stuck to me sounds like an understanding of the existence of a process, but no involvement in it. I also wouldn't consider cycling "stuck" as it is part of the healing process, however, one should be moving through them and experienceing them at various levels and with deeper insight into one's own self ... hmmm, let me try a visual. Picture a mountain, and a person running frantically around the base of the mountain, cycling as it were. Now picture someone else, also running around the mountain but this person is gradually making her/his way up a spiral path towards the top. Still cycling, but now with recognition of the landscape and the loops go faster as s/he climbs.

I wanted him to see the "lighthouse" and be drawn to it, but I didn't want to get too far ahead of him. So the fog wouldn't get too thick. I was scared still.

It took me letting go of the FEAR, more than letting go of the MLCer, that propelled me along further.

Well said. And great point.

Personally, I'm trying to now live my life and I guess I am hoping to "lead" by example ... but I'm not hoping to lead anyone in particular, well, maybe my kids ... perhaps "set an example" would be more accurate. I'm going to take B-lady's advice and make sure I am the best ME I can be everyday, and when I fall short (I know, I know, too easy...) I will learn and grow and move forward.

Peace
PEI

[Truegritter]

If what I said stung, then you and GRIT give excellent advice about that.

Did someone shout my name?

I put LFW stages up because it helped and still helps me.

Not that the stages are goals but I think definetly speaks to the fact that this is a PROCESS.

That is the first thing you have to realize in this tragedy we all share.

I can see once I have passed through a stage only when I look back. Never have I had the awareness when I was experiencing that stage to know that's what was happening.

That is what we bring here for ourselves and others. The benefit of the objective perspective.

And I also cycle through the stages or maybe the emotions associated with the stage but they do not define my daily expereince anymore.

I think maybe that the stages are defined by what our overiding focus or perspective is.

If we wake up angry and resentful and it is pervasive in our life then we have to move through that stage because it is not healthly.

Does anger come still... sure it does but you handle it differently because you have learned and understand.

It really is about accepting things for yourself and letting go of things that don't serve you.

And you only learn that by experiencing in my opinion.

Leading the MLCer?

Only consequently. If we are focusing our choices and our life on leading the MLCer then you are not moving forward.

We must learn to seize our own life. Make choices for us based our own beliefs, truths etc.

From our core.

When you do that you are leading yourself and you are a witness to that.

A witness to yourself.

The faith comes in knowing that by doing this any of the possible outcomes that can happen...

You will be ok.

In that sense your spouse MAY see this,

and

It MAY be something they want in their life

It MAY be the strength they need to help them through

It MAY show them what you value in your life, vows, and M

It MAY be they see the expression of what your love for them means to you.

IT MAY show them your honor, dignity and grace.

The important thing is we have to do this for ourselves and to stop watching them...

to see if they see it.

to see if they are following.

do it independent of the expectation that they will SEE.

That is the path of the LBS.

[cat04]

At 3 and a half years post bomb #948,

Just so I understand is "#948" the amount of times you have been bombed?

Crisis period one started in 1998 and ended in early 2000.

My H has always been a live in. So every day for most of that time, there was some new revelation or some sort of daily spew. It got so that I expected it when I awoke.

Bomb in 2003...no action. Like it never happened.

This crisis started in 2007 (which was actually the bomb I was referring to). Daily stuff for about 2 months. Bomb in 2008, and about 10 months of daily spew and more revelations, again a live in (the spew becomes second nature).

So while I was trying to make a funny and throwing out a random number (one or one hundred, doesn't really matter) because I honestly haven't kept track, there are 365 days in a year, doing the math, I was close give or take a 100 or so...

A quiet live in verses a very angry live in will make a difference in the "bomb" count.

[fisherman]

Lance,

One will NEVER have all the answers to this.

No where did I say I had all the answers T, I have had lots of questions though.
And you have answered most of them.

Oh I know Lance, I wasn't trying to say that you did, or single you out. Just trying to make that point and the fact that we don't need the answers to everything. It is meant to be that way. It's a part of how we grow and it's directly connected with faith.

The further along you move into this, the less certain things seem so important as well. You will find that a lot of what your focused on won't matter any longer.

I guess it may just be me, but to place so much focus, labels and absolutes on mlc and the posts in the archives, just sort of strikes me as not completely letting go.

It almost has sort of a "understand it, so I can follow it to the letter and FIX it" sort of feel to me, however that just may be ME. I dunno. I just keep getting this "fix it" vibe. I do know one thing for sure, it can very easily become an unhealthy obession if you aren't careful.

Anyway, I want to get back to MHL.

Buddy I am three years into to this and still deal with a touch of sadness and even a little anger at times. I can't tell you when it will all go away. All I can say is that you are one special guy and what you are felling is completely normal.

Just allow yourself to feel the way you are feeling and CHOOSE POSITIVELY as to what you want to do with those feelings.

If your feeling a bit blue, then maybe it means you need to find a new focus, OR the opposite.... maybe it's time to get a little introspective with the hope and faith that it will pass and you will be in a stronger place tomorrow.

If your feeling angry (btw it's prefectly fine for you to be angry) then you have a CHOICE to number one... own that feeling , then number two decide what you want to do with it.

You can sit and stew in it, sling blame... you name it. Or you can use that sh!t in a positive manner. Use it as a motivational tool to light a fire under your ass.

Tackle that project at work, bust your @ss in the gym, the list goes on and on.

Many of the battles we face are with ourselves.

I can't say enough about you , Grit and Eric you guys are doing wonderful. Stay strong embrace what you are feeling and keep up the good work.

I completely understand when you say you've let go of your marriage of old and yet, these feeling are still there. I'd be more worried if you were to say that they weren't.

Again, you are doing an incredible job. Keep going!