Sadly I find myself here, on my second marriage. Got the Ilyb talk in July. We are both 36 and have known each other for 7 years with a 5 year old son and 4 year old daughter.
The problems all started when we moved back to the UK from the US, she is American. Things seemed to be going very well until she had an attack of a recurring illness that almost resulted in a disfiguring operation. Fortunately a last resort cure, stopped this. However it's very heavy medication, with nasty side effects.
From what's she's been telling me over the last six months she feels that she could die at any time and just wants to make the most of her life. She's been dressing younger and sexier, and going out clubbing with friends, leaving me with the kids. She had also been getting very disrespectful about me in front of friends.
The whole thing came to a head when she was caught in a sexual act with the husband of her best friend, she admitted it to me and told me she wanted out of the marriage, naturally I was shocked and devastated (Aug 20th). My amazing and beutiful wife had turned into someone totally alien, and had become cold and callous seemingly overnight. she has never done anything like this before to anyone.
She has now got into university and expects me to pay for an apartment that we can swap between to co parent the kids. she has a part time job but we cannot afford the extra money and are in debt all over the place, she has told me that she doesn't care and knows she's being selfish.
She has been diagnosed with severe depression but refuses to seek treatment, and has told me she has no feeling except anger I feel that she is walking all over me with no respect whatsover. She wants me to fund her single fancy free lifestyle, and says that I owe it to her. She knows what buttons to push and is very good at making me feel guilty.
She knows that I'm still in love with her and has said some incredibly hurtful things eg she never wants to have sex with me again but yet she went away for 2 weeks, I didn't call her once and she kept calling me and I'm'ing telling me how much she missed me. When I picked her up at the airport it was like nothing had ever happened, we hugged and kissed for 5 minutes. Within 2 days she wasn't touching me anymore.
This seems to be a perfect storm of MLC, Dpression, ilness and I don't know what to do. We are stuck under the same roof (financial reasons), sleeping in the same bed in an incredibly toxic atmosphere.
I did become very clingy after the ilyb talk, but now I've distanced myself she is telling me I'm being cold and that she's still my best friend. I am truly devastated by this and want to save my marriage.. I just don't know what to do..
Rob, midlife crisis (maybe??) I don't believe that you should "fund her new lifestyle"...She really needs some intervention; I don't think that she is as much depressed as she is "unstable". Her crazymaking talk (what verbal and emotional abusers do) can confused us to no end...hold your ground, get stable and keep the kids cared for...You are in a very toxic environment; I lived that way with my dh; separated from him about a year ago...hopefully if you can "detach" to give her space to heal without giving her the means to run away you can get her into counseling; make an appointment and take her. Good luck and God bless.
M -12 Years 1 9 y son (w/me) S-Nov 2009 (and LOVING it; will NEVER go back!) D-soon
My feeling is that over the years I've simply become too soft, and always helping her, doing anything for her. I've nearly always done more childcare than her on top of running my business, it just isn't attractive. In fact she's told me that I'm too much of a "pleaser" but then again criticising me for making major decisions in the past without her.. the contradictions abound then you start feeling guilty for what you might have done.
On the depression front, what do you do with someone who denies there's a problem. Case in point this morning, "Ohh I feel much better and that a fog has lifted I'm not depressed anymore but don't let it think I've changed my mind about us I don't want you to have any hope of us getting together" Why does she have to keep reinforcing this every day. ?
She will not go to counselling or treatment and you can't force someone. It just feels that there is no hope left whatsoever in this marriage..
She has now got into university and expects me to pay for an apartment that we can swap between to co parent the kids. she has a part time job but we cannot afford the extra money and are in debt all over the place, she has told me that she doesn't care and knows she's being selfish.
You actually do have a chance of turning this around but it involves a lot of work and a lot of change on your part.
As for expecting you to pay for the apartment that you can swap, tell her
"NO, I've decided I won't ever be doing anything like that. You cheated, you wanted out of the marriage, well then you need to leave, start looking for a place you can live, get a full-time job and put your university classes on hold and get yourself an apartment where you can also keep the kids half of the time. I don't care how expensive an apartment is, you made these decisions, you deal with those consequences. I don't plan on moving out of my home anytime soon but I would like YOU to leave ASAP, if you need help moving let me know."
You have been way too soft, it's time to stop that.
She has been diagnosed with severe depression but refuses to seek treatment, and has told me she has no feeling except anger I feel that she is walking all over me with no respect whatsover. She wants me to fund her single fancy free lifestyle, and says that I owe it to her. She knows what buttons to push and is very good at making me feel guilty.
They are all diagnosed with severe depression, yet they refuse treatment and don't mind having the time of their life at someone else's expense. I wouldn't call that severe depression, I call that wanting to be a kid with no responsibilities anymore, heck their behavior is closer to Bi-Polar or even Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) than anything else and I personally don't believe MLC either but that's just me.
Watch for signs like this: - spending a lot more money without worrying about the consequence (ie. debt) - an attitude that they're better than everyone else and they don't care that their action are affecting others - they stop caring as much about their kids, stop spending time with them, etc. - live a guilt free life while trying to displace that guilt on others - crazy mood swings: happy, sad, angry, anxiety attacks and then wash, rinse and repeat - etc. etc. etc.
She has been diagnosed with severe depression but refuses to seek treatment, and has told me she has no feeling except anger I feel that she is walking all over me with no respect whatsover. She wants me to fund her single fancy free lifestyle, and says that I owe it to her. She knows what buttons to push and is very good at making me feel guilty.
Separate bank accounts, get your work pay cheque deposited into another account deposited into another account or you will find yourself with no money and a lot of reasons from her as to why she should spend as much as she wants. You do NOT owe her anything. She cheated on you and wants out of the marriage, remember? Why would you owe anything to someone who did that to you? Because they're your spouse and because you have kids? What about you? What does she owe you? Nothing after all these years? Stop being soft with her. She has been testing you constantly and found you to be a weak partner, she feels stronger than you because she can walk all over you and she does, you are a door mat. You have no voice, you're afraid to speak up because you think you will lose her but the truth of the matter is, you have lost her already, the process you are in right now proves this, she's just having her fun with you now, seeing how much she can beat you up and bully you. She can't love you or be attracted to you if she doesn't respect you. How can she respect you if you're the man in the relationship and she's stronger than you? How can she respect you if you won't stand up to her when she acts poorly and disrespectful? If you can't stand up to her how could you ever be expected to stand up for her if she ever needed to be protected? You've proven to her that you can't stand up to her so you're useless as a male mate, as a protector, etc.
You let her go, you don't fight to get her back, that's how you snap her head back into reality.
No more funding her "fancy & free lifestyle", tell her to get a job and work for her money and she can buy herself whatever she needs because you won't be doing it anymore.
These are your 180's and you need to start doing this immediately or I promise you that you will be going through this for months/years.
My feeling is that over the years I've simply become too soft, and always helping her, doing anything for her. I've nearly always done more childcare than her on top of running my business, it just isn't attractive. In fact she's told me that I'm too much of a "pleaser" but then again criticising me for making major decisions in the past without her.. the contradictions abound then you start feeling guilty for what you might have done.
On the depression front, what do you do with someone who denies there's a problem. Case in point this morning, "Ohh I feel much better and that a fog has lifted I'm not depressed anymore but don't let it think I've changed my mind about us I don't want you to have any hope of us getting together" Why does she have to keep reinforcing this every day. ?
She will not go to counselling or treatment and you can't force someone. It just feels that there is no hope left whatsoever in this marriage..
She keeps reinforcing this everyday as a test to you.
Women test men, some women test men constantly, it's a subconscious habit, it's a requirement, they need to make sure that they are with the right men, it's hardwired into our brains just like it's hardwired into you as to the type of women you're attracted to, you didn't get to choose the type of woman you wanted to be with, you saw her, she was attractive to you and you followed through on that instinct. She's following through on her testing instinct and you are FAILING her tests.
"Why does she have to keep reinforcing this every day. ?"
To keep you in weak, submissive state, to continue testing you and to continue validating to herself that her actions are correct, you are weak, you aren't the man she needs to be with. The fact that she cheated on you and pursued another man to have sex with proves this. The fact that she still lives with you and you take care of her without getting to have sex with her proves this, the fact that you let her beat you up and abuse you the way she does (what she does to you is abusive), proves this to her.
I'm glad she reinforces this statement to you everyday, it's a good lesson to you, it's also an opportunity for you to try something different to get different results.
"Ohh I feel much better and that a fog has lifted I'm not depressed anymore but don't let it think I've changed my mind about us I don't want you to have any hope of us getting together"
You reply:
"I'm glad you feel so much better and that your fog has lifted and you aren't depressed anymore. Now that you're feeling better you can get a full-time job and find another place to live because I don't want you to live here anymore and don't worry, I have NO HOPE whatsoever of us getting together again because I've decided that I don't want that anymore, I deserve better than this."
Her response: "I can't believe you're so mean, I thought you loved me, how could you treat me this way?" (she doesn't mean it, she's testing you)
YOU: "You're right, I am so mean, but you are mean also. I've decided I don't want to live with a person who is mean to me and you should make the same decision too. I would like you to start looking for a new place immediately, I can help you pack your things, I will bring home boxes this weekend to put your stuff in" (you acknowledging her tests, you signaling to her that you get it and that you won't put up with her crap anymore)
HER: "What happened to you? Where did you learn to talk like this? You're such a horrible person. This doesn't sound like you at all? Who have you been talking too?" (more testing on her part)
YOU: "Well I finally get it now, you don't want to be with me, you haven't for a long time and I finally get it. I'm OK with this because I don't want to be with you anymore either, the way you've been treating me is horrible and it's changed how I feel about you, I don't know how I feel about you anymore, I'm not even sure that I love you anymore either, you've become an alien, I don't know who you are and I can't waste my life on someone who acts the way you do and disrespects me all the time. That's why you need to get your own place because I definitely won't be leaving this home. I won't pay for your place either, you'll need to get a full time job, I don't care if this impacts your university classes, you didn't care that cheating on me would impact our marriage." (this is where you make her feel that you know she is constantly testing you, this is where you make her feel that you know how she feels, you get it, you understand her feelings now, she's lost attraction for you and you acknowledge that by actually letting her know this and by agreeing and telling her that you feel the same way)
HER: "So you're saying right now that you don't love me? Really? Then tell me you don't love, say it, I want to hear it."
YOU: "OK, I don't love you anymore. What's the big deal, it didn't kill you when you said those same words to me. I will be as civil as possible to you because we have kids but not much more than that. You've done too much, you've pushed me too far and you've disrespected me more than I ever expected you to after all of the things I've done for you, this is the way you show gratitude?! You cheat on me, you attempt to hurt me, you disrespect me, you use and abuse me, thank you but no thanks, I'm pretty sure I can find someone else who will treat me better." (you finally showing her and her "feelings" that you get what she's been trying to do, you understand how she feels, regardless if you agree with it or not and that you are ready to let her go and find someone else to replace her)
This type of conversation can go on & on & on for a very long time. Read the examples I've shown above several times, the dialogue will go similar to it, remember that when she talks to you she isn't being sincere, she is testing you, after a while you will be able to gauge this in her facial expressions and body language, she will try to figure you out, what you're up to and she will try many different things to get you to crack under pressure and show you true wussy colors.
My point is this, you acknowledge her testing by knowing that she is doing it and responding calmly to it without being emotional, without crying a river (which is a horrible thing to do in front of a woman who feels no attraction for you), you show strength, you show that your feelings have changed.
If the discussions goes too long, especially the first time because you're new at this and it will probably be easy for you to crack under pressure because she will try everything to get you to admit that you're lying and you're still in love with her so that she has power over you again (another test), you tell her simply:
"Look we can discuss this all day long, it's not going to change a thing or how I feel. I've said my part and I'm done discussing this, that's my decision"
and then you walk away.
If she gets extremely rude towards you aka "crap behavior", you tell her plain and simple that you won't reward her behavior with your attention and that she needs to go somewhere else and give that crap to someone else because you don't want anymore and then you turn your back on her and walk away.
You have been way too soft with her, I'm glad you acknowledge this much, it's time for you to do the opposite. It will be hard, know this, acknowledge it, accept it but deal with it.
Rob1971, I know you're probably confused because you came here to save your marriage and now someone is telling you to let it go.
Trust me, this is exactly what you need to do if you are to have any chance of having a R with your W. I wish I done this sooner in my sitch, it would've saved me a couple months of anguish. As it is my sitch was relatively short compared to the many people here who are stuck in limbo for several months or years. Once I followed through with this advice I turned things around within six weeks.
What Rob has told you is spot on. It is counterintuitive but it is what works when there is infidelity involved.
If you love somebody, set them free. http://tinyurl.com/2empx2g
She has been diagnosed with severe depression but refuses to seek treatment, and has told me she has no feeling except anger I feel that she is walking all over me with no respect whatsover. She wants me to fund her single fancy free lifestyle, and says that I owe it to her. She knows what buttons to push and is very good at making me feel guilty.
They are all diagnosed with severe depression, yet they refuse treatment and don't mind having the time of their life at someone else's expense. I wouldn't call that severe depression, I call that wanting to be a kid with no responsibilities anymore, heck their behavior is closer to Bi-Polar or even Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) than anything else and I personally don't believe MLC either but that's just me.
Watch for signs like this: - spending a lot more money without worrying about the consequence (ie. debt) - an attitude that they're better than everyone else and they don't care that their action are affecting others - they stop caring as much about their kids, stop spending time with them, etc. - live a guilt free life while trying to displace that guilt on others - crazy mood swings: happy, sad, angry, anxiety attacks and then wash, rinse and repeat - etc. etc. etc.
My feeling is that over the years I've simply become too soft, and always helping her, doing anything for her. I've nearly always done more childcare than her on top of running my business, it just isn't attractive. In fact she's told me that I'm too much of a "pleaser" but then again criticising me for making major decisions in the past without her.. the contradictions abound then you start feeling guilty for what you might have done.
On the depression front, what do you do with someone who denies there's a problem. Case in point this morning, "Ohh I feel much better and that a fog has lifted I'm not depressed anymore but don't let it think I've changed my mind about us I don't want you to have any hope of us getting together" Why does she have to keep reinforcing this every day. ?
She will not go to counselling or treatment and you can't force someone. It just feels that there is no hope left whatsoever in this marriage..
She keeps reinforcing this everyday as a test to you.
Women test men, some women test men constantly, it's a subconscious habit, it's a requirement, they need to make sure that they are with the right men, it's hardwired into our brains just like it's hardwired into you as to the type of women you're attracted to, you didn't get to choose the type of woman you wanted to be with, you saw her, she was attractive to you and you followed through on that instinct. She's following through on her testing instinct and you are FAILING her tests.
"Why does she have to keep reinforcing this every day. ?"
To keep you in weak, submissive state, to continue testing you and to continue validating to herself that her actions are correct, you are weak, you aren't the man she needs to be with. The fact that she cheated on you and pursued another man to have sex with proves this. The fact that she still lives with you and you take care of her without getting to have sex with her proves this, the fact that you let her beat you up and abuse you the way she does (what she does to you is abusive), proves this to her.
I'm glad she reinforces this statement to you everyday, it's a good lesson to you, it's also an opportunity for you to try something different to get different results.
"Ohh I feel much better and that a fog has lifted I'm not depressed anymore but don't let it think I've changed my mind about us I don't want you to have any hope of us getting together"
You reply:
"I'm glad you feel so much better and that your fog has lifted and you aren't depressed anymore. Now that you're feeling better you can get a full-time job and find another place to live because I don't want you to live here anymore and don't worry, I have NO HOPE whatsoever of us getting together again because I've decided that I don't want that anymore, I deserve better than this."
Her response: "I can't believe you're so mean, I thought you loved me, how could you treat me this way?" (she doesn't mean it, she's testing you)
YOU: "You're right, I am so mean, but you are mean also. I've decided I don't want to live with a person who is mean to me and you should make the same decision too. I would like you to start looking for a new place immediately, I can help you pack your things, I will bring home boxes this weekend to put your stuff in" (you acknowledging her tests, you signaling to her that you get it and that you won't put up with her crap anymore)
HER: "What happened to you? Where did you learn to talk like this? You're such a horrible person. This doesn't sound like you at all? Who have you been talking too?" (more testing on her part)
YOU: "Well I finally get it now, you don't want to be with me, you haven't for a long time and I finally get it. I'm OK with this because I don't want to be with you anymore either, the way you've been treating me is horrible and it's changed how I feel about you, I don't know how I feel about you anymore, I'm not even sure that I love you anymore either, you've become an alien, I don't know who you are and I can't waste my life on someone who acts the way you do and disrespects me all the time. That's why you need to get your own place because I definitely won't be leaving this home. I won't pay for your place either, you'll need to get a full time job, I don't care if this impacts your university classes, you didn't care that cheating on me would impact our marriage." (this is where you make her feel that you know she is constantly testing you, this is where you make her feel that you know how she feels, you get it, you understand her feelings now, she's lost attraction for you and you acknowledge that by actually letting her know this and by agreeing and telling her that you feel the same way)
HER: "So you're saying right now that you don't love me? Really? Then tell me you don't love, say it, I want to hear it."
YOU: "OK, I don't love you anymore. What's the big deal, it didn't kill you when you said those same words to me. I will be as civil as possible to you because we have kids but not much more than that. You've done too much, you've pushed me too far and you've disrespected me more than I ever expected you to after all of the things I've done for you, this is the way you show gratitude?! You cheat on me, you attempt to hurt me, you disrespect me, you use and abuse me, thank you but no thanks, I'm pretty sure I can find someone else who will treat me better." (you finally showing her and her "feelings" that you get what she's been trying to do, you understand how she feels, regardless if you agree with it or not and that you are ready to let her go and find someone else to replace her)
This type of conversation can go on & on & on for a very long time. Read the examples I've shown above several times, the dialogue will go similar to it, remember that when she talks to you she isn't being sincere, she is testing you, after a while you will be able to gauge this in her facial expressions and body language, she will try to figure you out, what you're up to and she will try many different things to get you to crack under pressure and show you true wussy colors.
My point is this, you acknowledge her testing by knowing that she is doing it and responding calmly to it without being emotional, without crying a river (which is a horrible thing to do in front of a woman who feels no attraction for you), you show strength, you show that your feelings have changed.
If the discussions goes too long, especially the first time because you're new at this and it will probably be easy for you to crack under pressure because she will try everything to get you to admit that you're lying and you're still in love with her so that she has power over you again (another test), you tell her simply:
"Look we can discuss this all day long, it's not going to change a thing or how I feel. I've said my part and I'm done discussing this, that's my decision"
and then you walk away.
If she gets extremely rude towards you aka "crap behavior", you tell her plain and simple that you won't reward her behavior with your attention and that she needs to go somewhere else and give that crap to someone else because you don't want anymore and then you turn your back on her and walk away.
You have been way too soft with her, I'm glad you acknowledge this much, it's time for you to do the opposite. It will be hard, know this, acknowledge it, accept it but deal with it.
Rob
Wow do you know my wife? It's almost like there is a script
Amazing I tried this over facebook when she was away in the US. I told her to get an apartment and come and visit whenever she wants to see the kids. She freaked and started accusing me of wanting to take the kids away from her, that I had a mean streak and she doesn't want to hate me, she then asked who I'd been talking to to fill my head with all that stuff, naturally I backed down.
The problem is I don't want to get sucked into a fight where she threatens to take the kids out of the country. Mind you I very much doubt whether she would because she needs me to look after them. I also thought that getting the apartment would give her space and time to think things through and avoid getting into a complicated battle over the kids.
Then again she doesn't have any money or real friends over here and has no where else to go, which is why I didn't kick her out when she admited to what happened. She constantly tried to justify what she did as a drunken mistake and that it was nothing and has actually had me feeling guilty over giving her a hard time. I'm just worried that coming down hard is going to backfire..
