I think there is a substantial difference between "letting go" and "pushing away." Having said that, not every case involves a true WAW as described by MWD.
What do you think pushes somebody away? Agreeing with them or arguing with them?
Just something to think about.
If somebody tells you, "I am miserable, I am not in love with you, I am moving out and have already found an apartment, I have already seen an attorney, and as soon as I sign the paperwork, I will be filing for divorce", are you going to try to argue with them?
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
I think there is a substantial difference between "letting go" and "pushing away." Having said that, not every case involves a true WAW as described by MWD.
What do you think pushes somebody away? Agreeing with them or arguing with them?
Just something to think about.
If somebody tells you, "I am miserable, I am not in love with you, I am moving out and have already found an apartment, I have already seen an attorney, and as soon as I sign the paperwork, I will be filing for divorce", are you going to try to argue with them?
That question is an example of the logical fallacy known as the "false dilemma" because those are not the choices. As I said, there is a difference between "letting go" and "pushing away." (However, in the case of infidelity, for instance, "pushing away" may be the best choice.) Letting go certainly would not entail arguing with them.
the stress and pain of staying and working on the M; and, the relief from stress that the constructed divorce plan provides. If you can relieve the stress of the relationship by DBing, you can make the divorce plan less compelling. Ultimately, you may even turn the R around
Google "The Stockdale Paradox."
Helped me prepare on two separate parallel paths. Work on the reconciliation while getting out in front of and dealing with a divorce.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
That question is an example of the logical fallacy known as the "false dilemma" because those are not the choices.
Sure.
You can agree with them, you can argue with them (and any speech that contradicts them is an argument), or you can say nothing or change the subject.
So?
"I have retained an attorney and am filing for divorce",
Do you,
A. Beg them not do this, reason with them about the effects of divorce (considering it is YOU they are divorcing and YOU they want to leave), and generally argue with their feelings?
B. Say, "OK".
C. Ignore them or leave the room.
D. Ask them what they think about those miners being stuck in that South American mine? Or something equally irrelevant.
Everything but 'B' is a form of invalidation.
Last edited by TimeHeals; 09/15/1004:58 PM.
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
the stress and pain of staying and working on the M; and, the relief from stress that the constructed divorce plan provides. If you can relieve the stress of the relationship by DBing, you can make the divorce plan less compelling. Ultimately, you may even turn the R around
Google "The Stockdale Paradox."
Helped me prepare on two separate parallel paths. Work on the reconciliation while getting out in front of and dealing with a divorce.
I have googled it based on your previous references to it. I also viewed some of the TED videos. I think you have a pretty balanced way of looking at these things and I have found your advice to be very helpful.
I googled the Stockdale Paradox and will post it here:
The Stockdale Paradox is named after admiral Jim Stockdale, who was a United States military officer help captive for eight years during the Vietnam War. Stockdale was tortured more than twenty times by his captors, and never had much reason to believe he would survive the prison camp and someday get to see his wife again. And yet, as Stockdale told Collins, he never lost faith during his ordeal: “I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade.”
Then comes the paradox: While Stockdale had remarkable faith in the unknowable, he noted that it was always the most optimistic of his prisonmates who failed to make it out of there alive. “They were the ones who said, ‘We’re going to be out by Christmas.’ And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they’d say, ‘We’re going to be out by Easter.’ And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart.”
What the optimists failed to do was confront the reality of their situation. They preferred the ostrich approach, sticking their heads in the sand and hoping for the difficulties to go away. That self-delusion might have made it easier on them in the short-term, but when they were eventually forced to face reality, it had become too much and they couldn’t handle it.
Stockdale approached adversity with a very different mindset. He accepted the reality of his situation. He knew he was in hell, but, rather than bury his head in the sand, he stepped up and did everything he could to lift the morale and prolong the lives of his fellow prisoners. He created a tapping code so they could communicate with each other. He developed a milestone system that helped them deal with torture. And he sent intelligence information to his wife, hidden in the seemingly innocent letters he wrote.
Collins and his team observed a similar mindset in the good-to-great companies. They labeled it the Stockdale Paradox and described it like so:
You must retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties.
AND at the same time…
You must confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
For me, the Stockdale Paradox carries an important lesson in personal development, a lesson in faith and honesty: Never doubt that you can achieve your goals, no matter how lofty they may be and no matter how many critics and naysayers you may have. But at the same time, always take honest stock of your current situation. Don’t lie to yourself for fear of short-term embarrassment or discomfort, because such deception will only come back to defeat you in the end.
Living the first half of this paradox is relatively easy, since optimism really isn’t that hard. You just choose to believe that it will all turn out for the best, and everything that happens to you is a means to that end. Simple as.
But optimism on its own can be a dangerous thing:
There’s no difference between a pessimist who says, “Oh, it’s hopeless, so don’t bother doing anything,” and an optimist who says, “Don’t bother doing anything, it’s going to turn out fine anyway.” Either way, nothing happens. – Yvon Chouinard
So you need to embrace the second half of the Stockdale Paradox to really make strides. You must combine that optimism with brutal honesty and a willingness to take action.
Now of course, nobody likes admitting that they’re fat, that they’re broke, that they’ve chosen the wrong career or that their marriage is falling apart. But admitting such truths is an absolute necessity if you want to grow and improve. It might feel like you’re taking a few steps backward by doing so, but you can view that retreat as the pull-back on a sling shot: you’re just setting yourself up to make significant progress down the road.
I like the Stockdale Paradox and its implications.
Plus, I am not a fan of the Osteric Approach at all.
Which reminds me, why do they call it the Osterich approach?
Osterichs don't bury their head in the sand. They try to run away if a serious perdator is attacking, and if they can't do that, they turn around and attack it
Osteriches can be kind of pushy too.
Last edited by TimeHeals; 09/15/1005:35 PM.
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
All that's great..I can tell you this..which I heard once from a wiseman...who had lived, worked, supervised and listened to women all his life...he told me during my D..
"once they have lost that lovin' feelin, they are gone, gone, gone"
and that's the truth..you can DB till the cows come home..but once they utter those words..."I don't love you"..
I very much like, believe and respect in the teachings of MWD but IMO they are suited for the couple that knows they are in trouble and there is a joint desire to improve.
In many cases the WAS is done. Period. Sadly when a WAS is done things can get very ugly very quick. When thousands upon thousands of dollars are wiped clean, vehicles stolen and any assortment of theft and abuse we read about here each day happen one cannot DB. One can go as dark as their legal counsel advises but once things escalate to a certain level something has to give and it has to be DB. When my H wiped out 30K of our savings despite temporary orders being in place to spend on OW I didn't really care how I looked to him - at that point I simply had to do do what I had to do to protect me.
The odd thing is once all that settles down and the case is "done" it's amazing how things shift. 36 months later my H is now telling me he does not want me to file for the divorce (we are legally separated and I can file in about 8 weeks). He has take a job that will have him traveling 90% of the time (guess things aren't going so good with OW living in his house, lol!) and he wants us to talk about "our" problems and date.
It's unfortunate once again he chose to make plans FOR me and telling me after the fact... my point is no legal paper can make a person "done". My H was as staunch and nasty as they come and 3 years later I think he is perhaps seeing the error of his ways. He isn't doing anything different but for somebody who said for 3 years divorce is his only option he sure seems to want to stop the divorce now.
I am not sure anybody is ever done. Not being done though doesn't mean you can't be smart.
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