Not sure where to start or end, WAW - #2

[TimeHeals]

I would just like to say one thing. 100% of everything (including debt) would have been a pretty sweet deal.

One thing I have learned about desperate WASs: sometimes they are so intent on running, that they will give up all claims to anything, and if you can get that it writing, then you have all the cards except their heart... which they may or may not offer later

Then... it's easier for you to have real empathy for them later: all they wanted was to "feel" in love again, after all.

[TimeHeals]

I'd like to explore the reasoning behind my post above here as a bit of self-indulgence.

I call this line of reasoning, "Making a treaty with the native americans".

Native Americans didn't really understand how the Euopean settlers could "own" the land. The concept of owning the land was completely foreign to them. As a result, they sometimes made some lousy deals, and worse, they didn't forsee that as new settlments and outposts occupied those lands, they would be pushed farther and farther off their traditional hunting grounds, and that treaties really didn't mean that much and were subject to change... unlike the land deals

WASs will sometimes offer to give up all claims if you just "set them free".

They are offering something ("legal claims to assets and offspring") for nothing ("freedom").

Freedom they already had. They could have it and be married (except for the freedom to sleep around, we hope).

Based on my limited experiece, I think that WASs are just as confused about their feelings as LBSs sometimes.

Sometimes they just want to "feel love", and because that is not there and because they have a past-negative perspective, when they look at the relationship, they focus on their resentments, regrets, anger, and so on, and they are miserable.

WASs will sometimes say, "I feel like I am drowning in this marriage" or "I feel like I am suffocating in this marriage"... followed up by, "and I won't be happy unless you let me go".

Now, I don't know much, but they aren't suffocating or drowning, but they do seem desperate to "feel love" again, but they can't shift their perspective on the marriage from focusing on past negatives.

Sometimes, the LBS tries and tries to save the marriage, and the WAS thinks that it is the LBS trying to save the marriage that is holding them back from joy and freedom (rather than their own perspective), so they offer up everything for their "freedom".

To me, this is a great deal. Take it. You get everything, and you give up nothing. They will have to figure out that they were always free, and that it is perspective that is the problem whether or not you set the free and whether or not they come back asking to work on the marriage

If the native americans offer to make a treaty (you get everyting, they get freedom), make that treaty.

[MakingProgress]

DSH - The torment had to end. I had to stop it before I went insane. I do not consider those steps backwards towards the end. I made peace with my W, let her go, then resolved everything monetarily and emotionally with one magic bullet. This has been over 4 months in the making, and I just could not take this anymore. The only way I could let go was to do it by ripping the bandaid off. Letting it bleed out with L's would have been pointless. I'm at peace with the negotiations we have made. Not only am I at peace, but it was the right thing to do. On my car ride back I looked deep - the only reason I was going to get L's involved and screw her was because I hadn't let go and was hoping that she'd come back to me if I threatened her or hurt her. Simply threatening that on Friday had her broken and begging to come home. That's not what I want. That's not what a good man does.

I think you did as well as any man could have done under the circumstances. Just remember, none of this moves in a straight line. You and she will be cycling through the same emotions that you just went through a few times more, but hopefully you will both come back to this place eventually. She is not evil. She is broken.

My children have asked me why my WAW is "doing this to us." The best way I can describe it to them is how a drowning person will pull down anyone around her just to save herself, even someone that is trying to save her. They do this out of sheer panic and a sense of self-preservation. Lifeguards know this and would not attack and seek to injure a person they are trying to save in retaliation, but they do know that THEY CANNOT ALLOW THE DROWNING PERSON TO TAKE THEM UNDER, TOO.

You are a compassionate person, John, and you certainly showed that here.

Be aware, though, that the agreement you came to is not binding and don't be surprised when she tries to back away from it when the panic sets in again.

[TimeHeals]

My children have asked me why my WAW is "doing this to us."

Teach your kids not to be "victims". He isn't doing anything to "them". He's unhappy and trying to find his way.

The best way I can describe it to them is how a drowning person will pull down anyone around her just to save herself,

The problem I have with this explanation is that it leaves out the Key problem and focuses on the negative aspects. The key problem is perspective. The two unhappiest groups of people on the planet are people high in past-negative (this event made me sad, I regret this, I am sorry about when I...) and present-fatalistic (nothing makes any difference because we're all going to die anyway, so it doesn't matter what I do. Nothing will ever change.) perspectives.

This is the point in the gratitude list : to teach you to focus on past and present events and things that make you feel grateful until you are seeing them everywhere you look, and then you "feel" "in love" with "life" and the world.

When you "feel" "in love" in a close personal relationship, you are focused very much on the present good, but eventually, the past and the future perspectives re-emerge, and if you have an unhealthy perspective, you are right back where you started, miserable and not "in love".

Life is good, and time is the most precious thing we have, and it's surely running out whether or not you use it wisely.

I should not neglect to mention, people with highly skewed time-perspectives find it impossible to understand or be understood by people with healthier time perspectives. They speak different languages. But we can change our perpectives.

To use time wisely, you must focus on the good things more (past and primarily present), and make reasonable plans for the near future insofar as you can anticipate the consequences of your own actions.

[MakingProgress]

My children have asked me why my WAW is "doing this to us."

Teach your kids not to be "victims". He isn't doing anything to "them". He's unhappy and trying to find his way.

She's unhappy and trying to find her way, AND creating a scenario where they will lose the family they know, have to move from the house and neighborhood they love, possibly have to leave the private schools they are attending, their expensive activities, etc. All of that may even be good for them in some ways, but they can't see that. They're children.

However, I will suggest that they GAL.

TH, I know you mean well, but I really don't believe you understand the impact of divorce on children. They ARE victims here. They have no choices. All I can do is help them to understand, forgive, and move on, but it will take years for that to happen and for most children it never completely happens.

[TimeHeals]

TH, I know you mean well, but I really don't believe you understand the impact of divorce on children

You've cetainly said so often enough anyway

I've witnessed it first-hand among relatives and friends ( and my own wife and many ex-girlfriends are products of divorced families, so I've seen long-term impacts of divorce and divorced parents not coping well with divorce).

The simple fact is that if your spouse is bent on or already has divorced or left you, there's nothing you CAN do but deal with things in a healthy manner, and how you cope is a model for your children. They will feel what they feel, and you can't talk them out of their feelings (that is unhealthy too), but you can model healthy coping, and it's a win-win: you are happy, and they learn how to deal with adversity without getting stuck in a negative past or fatalistic present.

You know what else I have noticed? You seem to focus on negative things. The two unhappiest groups of people on the planet....

We can all live good lives. If Nelson Mandella could discover love, empathy, and freedom while in a prison cell for nearly 2 decades, we all can do this.

[40andsadintexas]

TH I agree with 90% of what you say, and zero % of what you say about kids. Your sig tells the story of why we don't agree on anything when I comes to how divorce affects kids.

[TimeHeals]

TH I agree with 90% of what you say, and zero % of what you say about kids. Your sig tells the story of why we don't agree on anything when I comes to how divorce affects kids.

OK,

If you think staying "stuck" and using your kids as an excuse to keep your resentment and anger alive is good for them, that's your choice.

I gotta run. STBXW (not sure that's the correct term anymore) and I have plans for the day.

[MakingProgress]

TH I agree with 90% of what you say, and zero % of what you say about kids. Your sig tells the story of why we don't agree on anything when I comes to how divorce affects kids.

It's a perspective issue. When you have a short term relationship and no children, moving on, going dark, etc., is relatively easier. But when you have children, it just doesn't end. Being worried about your kids is normal. TH sees that as having something to do with your feelings toward your spouse, but his perspective is one of a short marriage with no children. It's just not the same, even if "some of his best friends have children."

If you want to transplant a tree that was planted a year ago, it's relatively easy. (That doesn't diminish the pain of the loss in a short marriage, it just makes the transition easier) The roots have not really spread and the tree is not that large. Wait ten, fifteen, twenty years and the task is much more difficult. The roots have spread and the tree is huge. In a long term relationship, your lives are so entwined that parting company is extremely difficult, as a practical as well as an emotional matter. Years of relationships and traditions involving, family, friends, and neighbors are suddenly gone. Throw in children and completely parting company is literally impossible.

I mentioned how I am helping my children understand and forgive their mother. TH tells me I should teach them not to become victims. He just doesn't know any better. He thinks they are miniature adults. They're not. Teaching them anything about this sitch is also complicated by having to worry about denigrating their mother in the process. TH takes this as negativity. You and I, as parents, have to deal with the reality of the sitch. Platitudes, such as "children are resilient," are not useful in raising and healing children. that doesn't mean we are still blaming our spouses. Even when all the hurt and resentment are gone, we still have to deal with the aftermath as it applies to the children.

When my W dropped the bomb, I put all the blame and hurt on myself. Now, I realize that she has issues that transcend our relationship and my hurt and worry are for my W and my children. That's why I was a little concerned about John's sitch. Many were taking the position that his W was "bad." She's not "bad." She's just in a bad way and dangerously close to a breakdown. I was surprised that people didn't see that. That's why compassion was most definitely in order and why John knew instinctively to do the right thing. Though he still needs an atty to protect himself from being taken advantage of.

Now I have to run, too, as I am preparing for Sunday dinner with my STBXW (with whom I still share a life, home, bed, etc.) and children. (I assure you, if I didn't have children she and I would have already separate and I would not be spending any time on this forum. However, our lives and choices as parents are limited in a way that childless couples have difficulty appreciating.)

[Coach]

Many were taking the position that his W was "bad." She's not "bad." She's just in a bad way and dangerously close to a breakdown. I was surprised that people didn't see that.

You are mind reading. It was obvious from his first week here that she was "drowning." Don't make the mistake that letting her go is not compassionate. Saving yourself is the priority. I am all about being compassionate and loving, it takes a while to realise that "letting them go" is the most loving thing you can do to someone who wants to leave.