Where does the WAW go

[Doodi]

Thanks for the clarification. That's why we post and reply. I'd get nowhere if I didn't seek the clarification or have the points put out there to question.

I get you on the WAW title. On here, I see it more as a classification as to who did what...not necessarily that I did all those things. Minor detail.

I'll look into that book as well. I'm up for anything that will help and guide me. No stone left unturned.

Just curious, what is your native language? If you hadn't of mentioned it I wouldn't have known.

Thanks again,
Doodi

[AJM]

Yeah, WAW is sometimes a blame game term. Does it fit? Hmm.. sometimes. But I don't think you are a WAW. I think you have issues. I think Kalni hit it on the head - you have to figure you out. You could not continue tolerating the behavior you have received and you required change - you created a crisis to do effect that change.

Agree with him. "You are right I don't do a good job of shopping and cooking, now is a good time for you to take that over. While we are at it, I think you would be better at handling the finances as well. Here's the checkbook and all the bills." I'm not kidding agree with him and let him do it.

That was my first thought as well. It fits that you need the room and freedom and if he wants it done differently than by all means, go for it. If he was a woman, I would say he was just bitching though....

The threats of suicide? That is serious. And I'm sure he feels it. It's an expression of his pain. "I'd rather die than live with this pain." But the pain is the catalyst and what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, right? Just note that he may need professional help and you may have to insist if he threatens it again. It is serious.

Doodi. I see a change in your perspective. I applaud your openness. I cheer your willingness to figure this out. I'm saddened by the difficult past that is haunting you but cheered by your desire to be different and not let it define you. I know that is not easy. It is very much not easy. And to keep your husband at arms length while you figure things out? Exhausting. I think you see that and have expressed that in your desire to work on things separately. It is tiring. But you are on the path to change and you need to work through it. Not take a short cut. Not get so impatient you just say F* it and leave. Believe me, the times will come where you think that is the best option and you'll be happy with the decision forever. Forever is something you both said before though. Forever may not be as long as you think. So please, stick with it. It may turn out in the end that you both go your separate ways. I don't discount that. But just be sure you have gone the distance and worked on all of it prior if that's how it goes. The potential is huge but the cost is patience and determination. I think you have those both and the steel to handle your issues head on.

Dealing with old issues? Not fun. But it sounds like overdue. Dealing with his issues? I think you'll find that when you set your old baggage aside for good, things will look very different. I think he will be thankful after the pain is past.

Something that occurred to me. Don't be unreal. By that I mean learn to keep your tongue (wisdom) but also learn to balance that by being yourself. Don't hide you.

The comment about men being dogs? That's simplistic. We are not. But people are simple in that they respond to positive reinforcement. Most people anyway. It's how we teach children. It's how we are taught to learn. By all means, reward him for positive behavior.

Do you have a lot to give? Kalni was right, likely not. You are fighting you here. Not really fighting him from what I can see in your posts. You want him to change, certainly. But what woman doesn't. But I think most of the big issues are really with you and you need to deal with them. The changes will reflect in your relationship with your husband. And you will be changing you and your relationship at the same time. That's ok. He doesn't know it yet, but he'll change at the same time. He won't be able to help that. And it sounds like he needs some changes. I'm guessing he'll be like a lot of others if he sticks it out and like the changes AFTER they are done.

Be patient with you, Doodi. Since this is likely not just about him, I see this as something that will take a lot of time to unravel the Christmas lights. We may have to rename you "Rusty"

Keep swimming Rusty. Keep asking the questions. Keep being real while trying not to do more damage than necessary.

[Greek]

you created a crisis to do effect that change.

You acknowledged a crisis. You did not create the crisis.

If he was a woman, I would say he was just bitching though....

Bitching? And not expressing a concern/need/requirement/want?

The threats of suicide? That is serious. And I'm sure he feels it. It's an expression of his pain. "I'd rather die than live with this pain." But the pain is the catalyst and what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, right? Just note that he may need professional help and you may have to insist if he threatens it again. It is serious.

It's serious control.

Not take a short cut. Not get so impatient you just say F* it and leave.

Doodi ~ when someone has his boot on your throat, you don't have to be patient, friend. You have to get the hell out of that hold and save your life. There. I said it.

Believe me, the times will come where you think that is the best option and you'll be happy with the decision forever. Forever is something you both said before though. Forever may not be as long as you think. So please, stick with it.

Well, when you only have ONE life, Doodi, forever is a big gamble, isn't it. An awakening I had in my 'sitch' was when I knew that when God was imaging me and created me, He did not think "let me make a wife for Coach!" He made me to be me. I share my life with Coach - I don't owe it to him or our children, and being his W/their mother does not define me. That's good health, Doodi. You have a God given right to be Doodi, and share her with whomever you freely choose.

I think he will be thankful after the pain is past.

It's not about him, Doodi.

Don't hide you.

Be you.

You are fighting you here. Not really fighting him from what I can see in your posts.

You are fighting FOR you. And he is not on board in that pursuit, so yeah - you are fighting him, too.

But I think most of the big issues are really with you and you need to deal with them. The changes will reflect in your relationship with your husband. And you will be changing you and your relationship at the same time.

So you just be a good girl and the M will get better. Pptooey! You've done that and your M has just gotten worse, Doodi.

I'm guessing he'll be like a lot of others if he sticks it out and like the changes AFTER they are done.

Or, Doodi, he will be like a lot of others who exhale and say, "Wow, dodged that bullet. She settled and signed on for another twenty. I'm a lucky man. Where's the remote."

Keep being real while trying not to do more damage than necessary.

Be real, Doodi, and if there is damage, then own it. Forever is a long time to just keep the peace for everyone else's sake. How is that...good? and right? and healthy?

I think Kalni made a good point to you about what your H is struggling with. I agree with what she wrote in her post about the developmental delay of the LBS, and the requirement for compassion and understanding of that. No 'buts'.

It's ok for it to be about you. "me, me, me" is not a sin. When someone has their boot on your throat, it IS all about you.

Greek

[AJM]

Bitching? And not expressing a concern/need/requirement/want?

Ok, fair enough that I used those terms and likely did not make the point. What I'm conveying, in a not so eloquent way, is that he is complaining. I made light by calling it bitching, but in faireness that won't come across very well in print. I retract that word, if I may. But know it this way: men might express it as "my wife is bitching a lot about crazy crap" vs. saying that she is complaining all the time. In fact, I believe that was somthing talked about in several of the marriage books and Michelle's writings: bitch all the time and it is seen as tolerated and normal. No need to change becomes the belief.

Greek, I am floored that you would take talk of suicide so lightly. Is it control? I don't know. Is it expressing grief? I don't know. Is it serious when you hear it? Abso-friggin'-lutely!! Don't discount that conversation. Please. Having had a family member commit suicide, I feel it is a very sad thing to wait for it to be serious. And to think it's all about you (doodi) so he can control you? Can you be so sure? I can't. And for those reasons I disagree very strongly.

Doodi ~ when someone has his boot on your throat, you don't have to be patient, friend. You have to get the hell out of that hold and save your life. There. I said it.

Um yep. The question I have in my mind is if it is his boot on her throat or the ghosts boots. Or both. I cannot think from what was written that we know.

You are fighting FOR you. And he is not on board in that pursuit, so yeah - you are fighting him, too.

Why is that Greek? Why is he not on board? Could it be because he wasn't asked? Coudld it be because he doesn't see things the same way she does? Could it be because this is sooooo one-sided (from his perspective) because it wasn't communicated before? Could it, Greek? Or is this just that she is right and that is all there is to it? Does she have no responsibility in this but instead he has to change and bend to her wants only? I'm at a loss here Greek. 'Cause that is EXACTLY the mindset that would drive somebody away. In fact, it may be that it drove Doodi away and many of the other WAS' Could it be that way Greek?

So you just be a good girl and the M will get better. Pptooey! You've done that and your M has just gotten worse, Doodi.

Bullshit. You weren't a good girl. You were dishonest with yourself, were you not? I'm not picking, as it is better late then never, but pointing out the difference. You weren't honest about what you wanted. Not with yourself at any rate. And if not with you, how on God's green earth could you be with him. Is that fair? Is that being good? Bullshit Greek. Very one-sided and controlling IMHO too.

You have a God given right to be Doodi, and share her with whomever you freely choose.

. Yep. And didn't you? Or did that not mean anything if you had a past to deal with? Or if the two of you couldn't communicate your needs? Forever is forever or until I don't feel like it anymore? Hmm... Something might be amiss here...


Look Doodi. It is not about him directly. But it does affect him. And you. And your family. Every one of you is affected. I'm not advocating for you to go back to the way things were. Far from it. But I do advocate that you see the tough times through until you are 110% sure that you know you and will continue to know you and have dealt with your issues. The easy way out is to run away Doodi. To blame him for your problems and say that he is overbearing and spiteful and mean and... He may be those things. But is that your issue? Your only issue? Is that something that will or won't change? To find out will take time. Lots of it. And lots of work. And courage.

The be you/don't hide you comment? Know why we were able to agree on that? Because the real you hasn't shown up to the party yet (in your marriage or your life from the sounds of it). Think about that. As you start to change you, it is very normal (from my limited experience admittedly) that you will go from one extreme to the other when it comes to control, taking a stand, etc. Know what that looks like to people that care about you? While you do that, having the compassion to understand that people that care about you will think you've lost your marbles - all at once. But like a kid learning to ride a bike for the first time it will be awkward as you lurch down the street. Or like learning to drive a stick shift after driving an automatic for years. Bumpy and jerky and all over the place at first while you find your balance. Get the feel.

Or, Doodi, he will be like a lot of others who exhale and say, "Wow, dodged that bullet. She settled and signed on for another twenty. I'm a lucky man. Where's the remote."

Bitter much Greek? That's a chance you'll take with ANY man, Doodi. Not that you are interested in any right now. Eventually you will be. When you're ready to take a chance again. You have a lot invested in this one and may be able to make this realtionship work. You may not. See the note about time.

Be real, Doodi, and if there is damage, then own it. Forever is a long time to just keep the peace for everyone else's sake. How is that...good? and right? and healthy?

Earlier Greek spoke of God and how he made you. He also talked about how to treat one another and how to hold our tongues. I in no way suggest you don't own the damage you cause. I am however suggesting that you consider limiting that damage by being careful of what you say. Not that you shouldn't say some things that will hurt. That's not the same as wanton or otherwise reckless damage. A girl in your position? You could easily come to hate your husband. It's not a far leap from numb to hate since anger is a much easier emotion and when you're deprived of emotion, you'll do almost anything to get it back. Even if it's not correctly aimed.

The question that Greek keeps putting out there is if your husband has put a boot on your throat or not. I am reading that is not the case. His changes? How he reacts to you? I completely believe that when he sees you happy and whole, he will be thankful at some point you made the changes and the real Doodi came to the marriage/relationship. It may not be immediately recognized that way. It may not be while you two are still married or for many years. But if he loves you, and I suspect he does based on what you say, he will want you to be happy and whole and will be glad when he sees you are. Men really are wired that way, Doodi. Many are.

Time? Forever? Hmmm. I see that term thrown around and it has an air of desparation to it. This is not a hallmark life. This is real. Live it like you mean it, certainly, but you need to figure out what that means to you, Doodi. Nobody else. You don't have to pander because you think it will make others happy. You never did. But there are things you do in a relationship that are called compromise. Figure out what that means to you and what things are not acceptable. Some of them are not and you set boundaries for those. And enforce them.

Don't expect your husband to change. It will happen, but not on your timeline. Would you want him if he did it because of you? I think you already answered that and realize no, you wouldn't.

Be calm, Doodi. Be methodical. Identify your problems and issues and deal with them one at a time. I mean really deal with them and put them to bed forever. Never to be able to haunt you again. Make your peace with your past before it takes over and devours your future. Make no mistake, walking away is not going to be as easy as some make it sound. You'll change the game certainly. But your issues will remain. Deal with the issues before you decide to walk away. Completely. That's my $0.04 worth.

[gucci loafer]

Doodi,

You would be very WISE to listen to Greek.

Do not listen to AJM...

No offense meant to AJM, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are wrong on most points.. Also didn't save your own relationship.... Maybe you should be LEARNING and observing instead of preaching and trying to force her to stay in something that is NOT WORKING AND HASN'T BEEN WORKING FOR A LONG LONG TIME...


Listen to Greek. She HAS been there, done that...

AND IT WORKED...

[Lotus]

There is a big difference between an WAW and an abused wife. A woman subjected to berating, angry outbursts and belittling is an abused woman. If she leaves she is acting to protect herself from harm. That's why there are battered women's shelters, but not dissatisfied women's shelters. There is a difference!

[Doodi]

WOW...Just WOW.

I have never had so much attention paid to me. I want to say that regardless of if I think your points are right or wrong I appreciate the debate, posts, insight, comparison, and caring thoughts that you guys have shown me. I truly appreciate every comment, no matter what. Some would just read and keep going but you guys have taken time out of your life to help/guide/discuss whatever and it means alot.

That said, I want to explain something about myself. Because of my past/present I always question myself and my thoughts/decisions, so I tend to analyze from many different angles. My IC compared me to the computer at the end of Wargames that was trying to figure out the outcome of a war. In a way that's what I do. Is it right, I don't know but is ME. I will look at everything from many different angles and positions and that's why I appreciate everyone's input. It helps me see outside of my little world to other views.

Now I don't want you to think I'm flippant in reality and that I'm flipping things on my H/family every which way, that's not it at all. I just am not spontaneous, not when it comes to important things. On this board, I am posting the inner workings of my crazy brain and believe it or not, my journal is even more bizarre. This is why I haven't made the decision to leave or stay.

My H is saying all the right things and says that he sees the changes HE needs to make for himself. I applaud him and hope he's ready for the draining work ahead. I will admit I'm not ready to believe it yet but I will not doubt that he will.

I take things one day at a time. I can't change the past only accept that it happened, I can't predict the future it makes me anxious, so I'm focused on today...the only thing I have control over.

Wishing you all the best,
Doodi

[pinhead]

Doodi,

A book that you might find invaluable is the 7 Levels of Intimacy. It has a concept of what our "essential purpose" in life is. I think it would give you some insight into why your relationship has turned the way it has. See if your library has a copy, or you can get it cheaply on line.

Hang in there. We're all rooting for you.

[Doodi]

Thanks PH,
I'll add it to my list. My librarian is gonna love me.

Doodi

[Kalni]

I am Greek and live in Athens...