Where does the WAW go

[pinhead]

Doodi,

You seem like you're in such a similar sitch as my wife that it's almost painful to read at times.

As hard as it is for you to focus on yourself, that's all you can do. My wife has become really fatalistic about relationships, and doesn't even recognize that she has to grow to become happy. She's acting and talking as if she doesn't deserve to be happy, that some people don't get all they want and need. It's pretty sad really, and I'm detached enough to realize there's not much I can do to help her through this.

You seem to fall into the same trap sometimes, and I think it's because your H is basically abusive. I wonder how much you'll really be able to change about yourself in such an environment. And from what you've described, your husband doesn't seem to be changing much himself.

I think that you have two choices that you shouldn't take too long to decide between:

1. Stay with him while you work on the issues. If you do this, you HAVE to set and enforce boundaries. He keeps beating you down, and you regress.

2. Take a vacation for a couple of weeks without him so that you can gain some real clarity. This will be hard because of children, but I think it's essential.

I'd even through in a third option; leave him. Not necessarily a legal separation, but a separation nonetheless. He can't grow while worrying about you, you can't grow while being in an abusive place, and your kids sure can't be doing well.

If you were my daughter, and knowing what you've written the last two weeks, I know what I'd tell her. I think you know what you need to do, but you're letting fear prevent you from that.

I pray you find the clarity, courage, strength and love to do what's best for you.

[AJM]

Coach, I see what you're saying. I will say that one part of that I disagree with wholeheartedly. Perhaps we'll agree to disagree on that.
I disagree that the destruction that is left in the wake is not permanent.

I suspect that Doodi has other issues outside of the marital issues. I won't lie and say that I don't have opinions. And Doodi, please treat them as opinions for you to bounce ideas against. Nobody here can say for certain any of this.

But when I ask the questions I ask them with the intent of pointing out that there is more here than just you. It seems to me from reading your posts that you have a raft of issues to deal with. It seems to me that you know your husband loves you. That you once loved your husband. The question then becomes can you grow and become yourself in the confines of the marriage? Or not? Will your H grow as well? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

But I also say that if you only focus on you, by the time you become you, you may find that you have nothing else to work on. And it seems from your post that you care about that. I could be wrong.

I suggested you not trust your gut right now simply because you are all over the map. Can you trust other opinions? I don't think you can or should rely on them solely. I think you have to figure you out.

My questions are also designed to help with that. To prod. To push. To suggest things that you may not like. Because that is one way you will be able to figure you out. By fighting these things.

Coach is right that my sit is not going to have the positive outcome I had personally hoped for. Why? I couldn't begin to tell you. But it is what it is. My wife did similar to what you describe and possibly for similar reasons. Truthfully I could not tell you her reasons. You can read that on other threads if you like to get an idea of my mindset about me from the venting. I encourage you to do so if you have the time.

In the end, I am a pro marriage person. No question in my mind about that. I see the damage that others have told me or my wife would not be part of this. They were wrong. The extent won't be known for many years. But the damage to the family is very much there and while she had to go through whatever she went through for her reasons, she did not have to cause that level of damage. There were many other options to divorce that did not require that level of damage and burning things to the ground.

Your changes are for you. Some may call that selfish. Others may see that as positive. Others may see it for what it is: necessary for you.

But I will also tell you I don't buy into the "i had a hard childhood" as an excuse for the changes. Possibly a reason, but I know many many people that have had much harder childhoods than most and don't find themselves 20 years down the road rethinking their commitments or their identity. Everyone is different, but no excuses. You are who you are and you are going to do what you are going to do.

We come at supporting you in different ways. I obviously touched on a nerve with Coach from what I read. Ok. If it helps you to see various sides, then I'm ok with that.

What we know of you comes from what you wrote. What I see is somebody who is depressed, confused, and not sure why. That is not something that encourages me to say, "trust your gut". Why? Because I also believe you have to stand for something or fall for anything that comes along. I don't buy into the crud in the media about finding your soulmate etc. I don't buy into the thought process that you cannot be who you are intended to be without your marriage intact. A new marriage to be sure, but the same people just the same.

How to get there? That's what you have been asking since you started posting. Seems like the right question.

I think you can see from all the posts that you have to figure you out before you can do anything with anyone else. Is that selfish? I think not. I think it's how it has to be. But it does not have to destroy others around you. So I suggested you not say or do things that you will later regret. You have already.

Is your husband abusive? I don't know. Is he reacting to the vacuum he feels? Is that abusive? Perhaps. I do not know your husband nor you. But I can see how his reactions to you may be construed as abusive. I can see how you pushing him away, and him not knowing why (deep down, does he?) may lead to poor behavior on his part. Not an excuse, just is. Your actions have a reaction. You are driving this train and he is along for the ride. For now. One or both of you may stop that before this is over. That is always a choice. But I do not think you should destroy everything with the idea that you can always walk back in later and things will work out "as they are supposed to". That's, to use a phrase, "hogwash".

I'll continue to ask the questions and point out other thoughts and perspectives until you say otherwise. We all have to walk as we see fit. With what we can live with. Your choices are your choices and only you will ultimately make those decisions.

Good luck Doodi. This discovery process is painful but I feel it is necessary to do. And to see through.

[AJM]

Because her H is mentally and verbally abusive then tells her that she needs to be responsible for her feelings. This is a unhealthy relationship.

Ok Coach. School me. The abusive part (I'm not convinced that I know him or her well enough to know what "abusive" is in this case, but I'll go with it) is not acceptable.
- has she told him how to treat her? I think she is responsible for that. Part of being an adult. His response is his responsibility and she can and should react accordingly.
- More importantly, how is it she should not be responsible for her feelings?

I agree. That is unhealthy. They should both be responsible for their feelings. But I'm interested to hear your thoughts and I think it would be beneficial for Doodi to hear them.

[soleil]

Because her H is mentally and verbally abusive then tells her that she needs to be responsible for her feelings. This is a unhealthy relationship.

- has she told him how to treat her? I think she is responsible for that. Part of being an adult. His response is his responsibility and she can and should react accordingly.

IMO, when one partner tells the other that X makes them feel bad when they do it and the other partner continues the actin/behavior, THAT is very unhealthy. It shows a lack of respect for boundaries.

Henry Cloud has a good book about boundaries and that is one chapter that Doodi may want to check out.

[AJM]

I agree Soleil. It is unhealthy. But I don't know that it has been communicated. Said? Perhaps. Communicated? Maybe not. I also think that Doodi has other things going on that are being revisited. Is it because of the things going on in the marriage or the other way around? I think Doodi is trying to figure that out.

On another note about change. I was reading this the other day and thought it relevant. Reminds me of Ghandi - Be the change you want to see.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_why_change.htm

Food for thought.

[Doodi]

@Pinhead--I've picked up our similarities as well. Painful as it is, it's also enlightening...at least for me.

I'm really trying to get option #1 to be a viable option. Although I honestly believe that it would be better to work on ourselves separately so that we don't derail each other, I really don't want to do that to my kids until it's a last resort.

I will admit that I do feel like I should go. As you know just about everyone in my life feels like I should go, I just really need to be able to say I gave it everything I have before I bail. And since I feel like I have something left-even if I'm hitting the bottom of the barrel--then I'll stay and fight.

@AJM--I appreciate input from all sides. I don't feel like I can make an educated, not emotional, choice in my life if I don't look at all the angles. So even if you and Coach (or anyone else) disagree, I appreciate you taking time from your life to try and help/guide me.

I have never hidden my other issues. I have quite a few. I know there are many people who have survived abusive households and blossomed. I'm not one of them. I can't begin to explain why but I am and have been working on that for years. It is a slow painful/draining process but I'm on it.

Although my primary focus is me and my issues, I do try to give the H what he needs. I know it might not be EVERYTHING that he wishes for but it's what I can give. I truly accept any decision he makes because he does have a choice to accept what I can give or not but right now some of the things he wants don't work with where I'm at in my personal journey.

As for whether his actions are abusive or not, I won't say. I will say that they are not REACTIONS to where we are, he has always acted the way he does now. In all honesty, he has reverted back to where he was before he started IC and yes I understand it's because of the nuclear bomb I dropped on his life. That's why I try to take what he dishes. I did make this bed and his outburst are what's in it...that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt and that I won't cry.

As for the link you sent, I've read it and it's why I speak more of my issues than his. I don't think just because I admit that I have issues means he doesn't but I am not pointing the finger saying FIX THIS. He has to look into his own soul and figure out what, IF anything he thinks he needs to work on.

In regards to the marital issues, I am actually looking at them figuring how I would handle things if he DIDN'T change at all (worst case scenario). Not so much whether I'd leave or not, but how would I handle the games, guilt and attacks that come my way. I accept that my reactions to the situation can fuel or diffuse it and that's what I'm working towards figuring out.

I would like you to elaborate on your comment about being said vs. being communicated. TIA

@Soleil--What is the name of the book? I'm looking for all the help I can get.

Keep the conversations, advise, insight coming...I need all the help I can get.

Smooches,
Doodi

[Coach]

he has reverted back to where he was before he started IC and yes I understand it's because of the nuclear bomb I dropped on his life. That's why I try to take what he dishes.

So you are responsible for his behavior and how he feels? But he tells you that you shouldn't be upset when he "dishes" something out?

I will say that they are not REACTIONS to where we are, he has always acted the way he does now.

I am actually looking at them figuring how I would handle things if he DIDN'T change at all (worst case scenario).

You can't change him.

but how would I handle the games, guilt and attacks that come my way.

give examples

[pinhead]

he has reverted back to where he was before he started IC and yes I understand it's because of the nuclear bomb I dropped on his life. That's why I try to take what he dishes.

So you are responsible for his behavior and how he feels? But he tells you that you shouldn't be upset when he "dishes" something out?

I will say that they are not REACTIONS to where we are, he has always acted the way he does now.

I am actually looking at them figuring how I would handle things if he DIDN'T change at all (worst case scenario).

You can't change him.

but how would I handle the games, guilt and attacks that come my way.

give examples

Coach, she's not saying she can change him. She's saying he has to change. That's definitely possible. Hard, painful, but possible. Look at all the people who have changed post Bomb.

If she sets boundaries and enforces them, he'll be forced to accept responsibility for his actions. Perhaps that'll motivate him to change.

I know that a lot of my changes were due to my W. Not for her, but because I recognized that a lot of her complaints about me over the years were valid, regardless that they came from the mouth of a WAW.

[AJM]

Although my primary focus is me and my issues, I do try to give the H what he needs. I know it might not be EVERYTHING that he wishes for but it's what I can give. I truly accept any decision he makes because he does have a choice to accept what I can give or not but right now some of the things he wants don't work with where I'm at in my personal journey.

That, Doodi is very smart of you and why I don't think you are done. Tired and worn out, yes. But done, I don't think that's the actions of someone who's done.

Coach is correct about this: You cannot change him. Stop trying. Stop making it a demand that he change. Demand that you change and let him figure out if he can change in a way you need him to. Or not. Don't set a time limit though - he won't move at the same speed you do - both faster and slower. And may not move in a way you understand. Be patient. He won't be able to do anything other than change when you change. Won't be possible to stay the same.

He also pointed out that you are taking responsibility for your husband's reactions when you dropped the bomb on him. I applaud you for being compassionate, but don't think you should shoulder the burden for the reactions. Try to find that balance between the two if you can. Remember, just because somebody hurts, doesn't give them the right to hurt you. Set your boundaries and defend them, patiently and compassionately, but defend them.

Said vs. communicated. Have you read the 5 love languages? The point I was making is that you may have "thought" or "felt" like you were screaming something to your husband. He may not have heard it. Sure he heard the words, but did he hear what you were saying? Possibly not. There's more to communication than just words and actions.

Does it make sense to you that your H would want to hurt you? Is he that kind of person? Does he wake up in the morning thinking, "how can I hurt my wife?" (don't guess - you can't read his mind; but is that how you feel?)

"Without common understanding, there can be no common sense."

[Doodi]

Just thought I'd try to find some positivity. TH posted this on another thread but I wanted to try it here, for me.

1. List three difficult things that happened in your past.
2. List something you learned from each of these difficult things.

3. For the next 14 days make a list of 10 things that you noticed and are grateful for having in your life. I mean... you really feel gratitude for these things. 10 a day for 14 days.

Repeat #s 1 & 2.

This was posted on another thread and I thought I'd give it a shot in mine.

1. 3 Difficult things

*Being home alone with my baby brother when my house caught fire...I was 8
*Standing up to my mother the last time she hit me
*Dealing with my H's possible infidelity

2. What I learned

*That even at a young age, I was able to keep my wits about me in even the stressful situations.
*That eventually the pain gets bad enough that you risk it all
*My husband will repeatedly lie to my face to cover his @ss

3. 10 Things I'm grateful for

*My 2 beautiful kids

*My oldest and dearest friend--she's seen the good, the bad and the ugly, but she's still here

*Dr. Shelley--for guiding me through to a stronger me

*This forum and everyone who has tried to help me

*That my H has admitted/identified a few things he needds to work on

*Eminem's new CD Recovery--Music is very powerful

*My Laptop because then I'm never far from a happy place

*The gym and my trainer

*My ability to squash my feelings, otherwise I would be
crippled on the floor

*I finally have a way out and a place to go IF I decide it's what I need to do.