New Beginning

[PEI]

I asked PEI those questions

I have a question.
Where you been all day?

Its Little Friday.

At the park with the kids ... reading on my phone ... working on my response(s) now ....

Damn ... where did I put those typing finger splints?

[PEI]

Hi all!

Frig, ya take an afternoon off to take the kids to the park and my thread goes crazy ... well, here goes nothin' …

That you can be absolutely judgmental about other women, and what you assume they are going to be like, without actually taking that chance....

I think I addressed this …

I now have and maintain very close friendships with many women

Did I call you a Cougar ?

Nope....I think you need to read again, maybe after the 48 hour rule ?

Ok ….

Yet completely 100% differently NON-judgmental about the attention of men.

For me, it would seem to be the exact ingredient needed to fuel a "cougar" mentality.

Are you comfy with this ?

Ok, reread it … and yep, I’m calling BS on your “Nope”. You can word-smith it or play semantics but I believe your intent was to push that button, and you wanted me to feel like you were calling me a cougar, or a potential cougar to prompt a response.

You almost had me. You really did.

Cat, I have to admit, that with the morning I was having, hell, the week I was having that this little nugget pissed me off from the get-go. Maybe Eric’s right and I took it the wrong way, but from where I sat this morning, this looked like you were implying I was trying to “fool” someone … “almost HAD me”... Anyway … I’m gonna let that go and move on.

Am I still searching outside myself for validation .... to validate my worthiness, my sexiness, my attractiveness, my appeal?

Are you sure of this statement? Really sure that you are not looking for attention, maybe not validation exactly any more, but attention from men?

Actually I am sure of that statement, it’s a fair question, but yes, I’m confident in my answer.

So ... what's the deal then? I like men. You guys are alright. I like the banter. I enjoy the fun. And more than ever, I like women too (no Grit ... not like that ... I'm not wearing the shirt!) ... as long as they are the kind that don't like drama and can relax and have some fun.

PEI, this was ok, sorta. Right up until your sexual aside to Grit. You made an assumption of the thoughts that your comment would bring, and couldn’t pass up the chance for a response. (Which you got BTW.)

So, let’s say I don’t make the pre-emptive strike (that’s the one-up-man-ship I was talking about by the way – and a long-standing joke between friends) and instead, Grit goes for it, as I assumed he would (or anyone does for that matter) and then I respond with an LOL or something equally mundane … well then it’s ok right? Because they are just “boys being boys” … I call BS here again – more on this in a minute.

My opinions on relationships with women are based on my experience. I grew up in a very small place, went to very small elementary and highschools and unfortunately a bunch of the girls I was exposed to were nasty.

Maybe it is time to let go of that part of your life.

You’d be amazed at just how much I’ve let go of Cat, forgiveness and forgetting are two different things, and guess what … you get burned enough times, you learn to test the stove to see if it’s on, just sayin’.

Am I now absolutely judgemental about women? Not at all. I now have and maintain very close friendships with many women, I just don't like the drama associated with what appears to be, in my opinion and based on my experience, a lot of women. Ask around, I bet I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Because this statement shows that you haven’t. You are still using those experiences, to justify your apprehension of women.

If that's true then I wonder what do you use to justify your apprehension? More to the point, because really I don't care how or why you justify it (nor is it my business), why is ok for you?

I still have a hard time forming friendships with women. Partly because of my desire to stay out of the drama,

You know what I have learned though?

It is much easier to have those “friendships” that you are talking about, when you totally remove the sexuality from it. You have to be able to set up the boundaries in your own mind. For you. And you have to know that it is ok to NOT cross them, even if your intentions may be pure and innocent.

Honestly, I’m glad that you have learned what has worked for YOU. You are comfortable with the way you conduct your friendships and set your boundaries, as you should be. Seems to me though, that you are projecting a bit … what has worked for you, and what suits your preference in relationship dynamics might not be what works for everyone just because we are both women enjoying a mans world with similar background stories.

And within a COMMITTED relationship, for your spouse to be "validated" by a group of men ?

So it’s been decided then, we are talking about validation? Oh, I thought we were talking about joking around and having some fun … this is the real debate. I disagree that all joking around between men and women, even if there is sexual innuendo or “asides” is validation. Some women share that sense of humor. For potentially a multitude of reasons … just personality, growing up with a houseful of brothers, hanging out with guy friends, etc. Again I ask the question …

Funny, I wonder ... if I were a lesbian and chose to mostly hang out with and joke around with men in the same fashion as I do now ... would anyone have a problem with it? I would guess not. Why is that?

By you being here, and saying what you think PEI is thinking, or the way PEI interprets my words.....

Is Validation....from a guy friend....

So if Shel had said the same things nobody would question it because she’s a woman? Again … the gender bias I take issue with.

And I have to accept the judgement that does come my way because of that.

No Cat, actually you don’t. You may have to accept that it will happen, but you don’t have to accept that it is ok or justified.

Does that mean that I talk to them about my Brazillian wax

Ah … here is the bee in your bonnet … do me a favor and go back and reread that part of the thread … it starts near the bottom of on page 29 on my first MLC thread. I actually brought it up as context to relate a funny story between my husband and I. Then the guys ran with it … and ya know what, it was funny as hell by times. Don’t see anyone questioning Mach or Grit’s level of digging re validation or appropriate communication styles based on their joking around. Again … the double standard … and yes, I understand it exists, I just refuse to be bound by it. Does that potentially portray me in a certain light, perhaps … to those who choose to let it and not get past it to get to know the rest of me. Their problem frankly.

So why do I like men? Honestly, how many women do you know that can carry on a conversation about the engine of a car, the actual technicalities of a sport, fishing, hunting, etc? Those are MY interests.

So ... what's the deal then? I like men. You guys are alright. I like the banter. I enjoy the fun. And more than ever, I like women too (no Grit ... not like that ... I'm not wearing the shirt!) ... as long as they are the kind that don't like drama and can relax and have some fun.

I would like to see PEI's reasons for liking men, to be much more like mine...

Actually, they are. I share a lot of interests with the men in my life … action and horror movies, business and entrenpreneurship, a true distaste for “girly” TV (ie I’ve never seen even an episode of Sex and the City … which my girl friends find disturbing). But … I’m not a total tomboy either … I’m no jock and yes I like high heels and dancing. I also like kicking back with a beer and listening to heavy tunes or sitting on bank with a fishing rod (in PEI opening day is April 15th and I never missed an open with my Dad … even at 15 with blue eyeshadow I was there). I stated I liked the general style of guy relating (banter/fun/etc) and that was taken as what I base my preference for male friends on???

First, I think we all need to realize that when we post; we need to understand that sometime tone is difficult to read. Sometime we interpret someone response as a negative or an attack when it really is not.

Hey, just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean somebody’s not chasing me …. JK! Seriously … good point …

My point is this…things are posted on these boards with the intent to help each of us grow, grow in the areas that sometime we do not see we need to grow in. Sometime it is not until someone challenges a post, thought or a POV that these areas of growth are visble.

I get this. I really do. I guess my point is just that because someone else thinks, based on their own personal story or experience, that there might be work to do or room to grow in a particular area doesn’t make it so. I do think though that we would be remiss to not point out something if we thought it might help someone reach farther or dig deeper.

So it is ok for Mach or Jack to talk in a "man" way with your W? It doesn't bother you at all? Doesn't make you feel just a bit small? Especially if she is welcoming and responsive of it?

I think the point of this or at least how I interpreted today back and forth…is that we all need to look at how we communicate with each other, specifically with the other sex. That is a conclusion that each of us must reach on our own and I think she was just trying to highlight that point.

I’m not saying there isn’t a line. I’m just saying that there are various definitions of that line, and it’s not “one size fits all”. Sure, misunderstanding might occur, and as ADULTS I would expect that we would communicate about those in a forthright manner. That’s just me. And I don’t like different lines for men and women, that’s the gender bias that I don’t buy into. Also, perhaps wouldn't hurt to define the line by what you would or would NOT do or say in a room with your spouse present.

What I believe they were trying to do was point out something that they saw/felt in response to your post

Sure, fair enough. I actually pointed that out myself. I’ve made no secret of my past or the work I’ve done to uncover the reasons/motivations/ramifications of that past. The operative word though is PAST.

Am I crazy or does anyone see my point of view?

Dude … you’re just crazy … JK … was too easy ….

Maybe not all women, just Canadian women?

Nicely played my friend.

I will not speak for you - your a big girl you can do that yourself.

Yes I am, and yes I can.

Peace
PEI

[cat04]

PEI,

You almost had me. You really did.

Cat, I have to admit, that with the morning I was having, hell, the week I was having that this little nugget pissed me off from the get-go. Maybe Eric’s right and I took it the wrong way, but from where I sat this morning, this looked like you were implying I was trying to “fool” someone …

While I was not trying to piss you off, honestly, I think you are fooling yourself in some way. Honestly, if you don't think you are, then you don't. I am not the one who looks in your mirror.

If that's true then I wonder what do you use to justify your apprehension?

Fair question.

Honestly PEI, I do not trust women in general.

My H had several OW, who all tried to be or were my friends. Who acted like my friends, came to my home, hung out with me, gave my son gifts. I am not as much apprehensive as less willing to blindly trust until a time when it is earned. However, I do that with men as well. That is something that I am still working on. Because I do not want to feel that way forever.

Until that happened, I had many female friends. Again, as long as we have something in common, I am open to friendship with people, regardless of their gender. I tend not to be interested in most things that women my age are. The women that I do have as friends, are all older, of a different generation. A generation whose gender roles are much more defined.

Is that justification? I don't know. Justification to me, means that I am willing to live with the status quo, and that is not where I am headed. So in a nutshell, it isn't ok for me either.

Seems to me though, that you are projecting a bit …

Projecting, no. Sharing my own experience, Yes. PEI, you opened this door, these are your ponderings, not mine. I have already walked down that road. And more often than not, it wasn't too pretty.

And within a COMMITTED relationship, for your spouse to be "validated" by a group of men ?

So it’s been decided then, we are talking about validation? Oh, I thought we were talking about joking around and having some fun … this is the real debate.

The post that spurned this "debate" was your musings about validation.

And I have to accept the judgement that does come my way because of that.

No Cat, actually you don’t. You may have to accept that it will happen, but you don’t have to accept that it is ok or justified.

I never said it was right or justified. Simply reality. Reality, I accept.

I stated I liked the general style of guy relating (banter/fun/etc) and that was taken as what I base my preference for male friends on???

You stated you liked the style, and PEI, I have seen how you express that, almost always with sexual overtones. That is what it is based on. Exactly what you said.

Over and over you complain about gender bias. It may not be fair, it may not be right, but you know what, it is reality. It exists. I never said it is ok for the guys to act like many of them do, any more than I think it is ok for a woman to perpetuate it to fit into their world. Are you using your fighting of that to justify your behaviors?

Be honest, how does that banter, that one up manship really make you feel? Powerful, in control? Equal to men?

PEI, I could care less if you like me or not. While I have been lucky enough to form some good friendships from these boards, I am not here to make friends.

I am here because I have been down both roads and have been dealing with this crap on and off for, Holy Crap an anniversary has passed, 13 years. I have survived the first go round with H's crisis, after I did LRT, out of anger. I have pieced and have survived a second go round with his crisis. This time, I have taken a different path in every way possible. Including, but not limited to, what is preached on this board. This isn't a popularity contest for me. It is the better option.

I have experienced things, in and out of my M, that have brought people who post here to tears, anger, and in one instance, complete silence and shock. It is from that experience that I can look at a what people write and more often than not, say exactly what they need to hear. Even if they don't want to. While I often wish I haven't had all of the crazy people in my life that have been there and I have asked God why He has chosen to put me through all of the stuff that I have been through, witnessed, and lived, I also know that there was and is a reason for it. So someone else doesn't have to walk the path that I have walked with quite as much difficulty as I have had. It is the only way I know how to post. How to reach people.

And just so you know, the wax thing, was an example of some of the conversations that I have been involved in on the boards with other women. Prude, absolutly not. Offended, personally, no. You knew when you posted it that it was TMI. If the example of a conversation I was in, stung for you...

[PEI]

Cat,

While I was not trying to piss you off, honestly, I think you are fooling yourself in some way. Honestly, if you don't think you are, then you don't. I am not the one who looks in your mirror.

I understand you think I still have a ton of work to do here. My musings and ponderings are part of my work. I continue to dig but am comfortable with what I am finding. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and let time sort it out.

Honestly PEI, I do not trust women in general.

I get that.

My H had several OW, who all tried to be or were my friends. Who acted like my friends, came to my home, hung out with me, gave my son gifts. I am not as much apprehensive as less willing to blindly trust until a time when it is earned.

Fair. No blind trust based on personal life experience. Seems we agree on this, just that the experiences that got us here (and I haven't detailed all of mine, just eluded to how it started) are different.

as long as we have something in common, I am open to friendship with people, regardless of their gender.

Me too.

I tend not to be interested in most things that women my age are.

Me neither.

Seems to me though, that you are projecting a bit …

Projecting, no. Sharing my own experience, Yes. PEI, you opened this door, these are your ponderings, not mine. I have already walked down that road. And more often than not, it wasn't too pretty.

I did not claim to not open the door. And yes, they are MY ponderings. And while I respect your opinion and your experience, I happen to disagree.

And within a COMMITTED relationship, for your spouse to be "validated" by a group of men ?

So it’s been decided then, we are talking about validation? Oh, I thought we were talking about joking around and having some fun … this is the real debate.

The post that spurned this "debate" was your musings about validation.

Yes, musings about validation and communication/relating style and friendship etc. and the conclusions I was drawing for me personally.

And I have to accept the judgement that does come my way because of that.

No Cat, actually you don’t. You may have to accept that it will happen, but you don’t have to accept that it is ok or justified.

I never said it was right or justified. Simply reality. Reality, I accept.

Your choice. I choose differently.

I stated I liked the general style of guy relating (banter/fun/etc) and that was taken as what I base my preference for male friends on???

You stated you liked the style, and PEI, I have seen how you express that, almost always with sexual overtones. That is what it is based on. Exactly what you said.

I do like the style. I won't apologize for it. And truth be told, I don't usually send the conversation off track (in fact when I go back and read the wax example it stayed clean until Grit and Mach side-lined it), but so what if it side-lines, I can have some fun too.

Over and over you complain about gender bias. It may not be fair, it may not be right, but you know what, it is reality. It exists.

I understand it exists, but I choose to not be bound by it. Acceptance will perpetuate and I choose not to.

I never said it is ok for the guys to act like many of them do, any more than I think it is ok for a woman to perpetuate it to fit into their world.

Maybe, but it never comes up as NOT ok either. Seems to me like it's the behaviour itself that you don't approve of, and that is your perogative. I simply disagree.

Are you using your fighting of that to justify your behaviors?

No.

Be honest, how does that banter, that one up manship really make you feel? Powerful, in control? Equal to men?

Honestly Cat, it makes me feel like I'm having some fun with some friends. It's give and take, comradarie .... whatever. It's not a power play. I'm already an equal, no need to "prove" it.

PEI, I could care less if you like me or not. While I have been lucky enough to form some good friendships from these boards, I am not here to make friends.

Trust me, I get it. And quite frankly, I agree. I used to hate the thought of someone not liking me, used to eat me up inside ... that whole approval thing. Now? Not so much. To each his own. Like me, not like me ... your choice. What does still bother me a bit is when I feel misunderstood. I don't like feeling like someone has made their choice based on partial information or assumptions. But I'm learning to deal with that too. Not my issue ... outside of my control, so I let it go.

I am here because I have been down both roads and have been dealing with this crap on and off for, Holy Crap an anniversary has passed, 13 years. I have survived the first go round with H's crisis, after I did LRT, out of anger. I have pieced and have survived a second go round with his crisis. This time, I have taken a different path in every way possible. Including, but not limited to, what is preached on this board.

And this is precisely why I respect your opinion and experience. Doesn't mean that I agree with everything you conclude, or that everything applies.

This isn't a popularity contest for me.

Are you saying it is for me? Because I can assure you that isn't it. And frankly, if you think it is, you don't know me at all, on any level.

I have experienced things, in and out of my M, that have brought people who post here to tears, anger, and in one instance, complete silence and shock. It is from that experience that I can look at a what people write and more often than not, say exactly what they need to hear. Even if they don't want to. While I often wish I haven't had all of the crazy people in my life that have been there and I have asked God why He has chosen to put me through all of the stuff that I have been through, witnessed, and lived, I also know that there was and is a reason for it. So someone else doesn't have to walk the path that I have walked with quite as much difficulty as I have had. It is the only way I know how to post. How to reach people.

I have no problem with the way you post. I don't mind being challenged. If I did, I probably wouldn't post anymore.

We all have baggage, some of it heavier than others. I am not in any way trying to diminish your life experiences or the crap you've had to deal with. One of the lessons I learned while reading "This is not the story you think it is" was that pain is not relative. It just is. It is what it is. Everyone's pain in personal.

Your reasons for posting are no different than mine. I too hope someone learns from something I have experienced or learned, and that their journey in some way is made easier for that lesson. I'm here to continue to grow and learn, to push myself and be pushed by others ... and I'm here to pay it forward. Those who know me know this to be true. Popularity contest? F*ck that, I've been to highschool and I'm not interested in going back.

If the example of a conversation I was in, stung for you...

No sting here ...

[Puppy Dog Tails]

My opinions on relationships with women are based on my experience. I grew up in a very small place, went to very small elementary and highschools and unfortunately a bunch of the girls I was exposed to were nasty. The bullies I ran into on the playground were girls, long before sex and sexuality entered the playing field. Am I now absolutely judgemental about women? Not at all. I now have and maintain very close friendships with many women, I just don't like the drama associated with what appears to be, in my opinion and based on my experience, a lot of women. Ask around, I bet I'm not the only one who thinks so. That being said, I also believe in a very deep sisterhood. My entire family is mostly women, and we are very close and multigenerational ... sisters, mothers, aunts, grandmothers, great aunts, grand-daughters, daughters ...

The flip side is that I also enjoy friendships with men in general, but not necessarily all men. I am not 100% non-judgemental about the attention of men. Trust me, I am more than knowledgeable about the potential motivations and intentions of many men. All too familiar in fact.

Ya gotta love the judgement that gets attached to a woman who can interact in a man's world, if she chooses to do so in an open playful way. Nobody judges the men ... oh, no ... they're just having fun ... gimme a break. And "the kind of men that attracts"? I'm talking friendships ... banter, fun ... not attracting someone ... see, I do believe that men and women can be friends. But if we're talking attraction, I would expect that it would attract men who enjoy women who are relaxed and can have fun without the drama.

Did you hit a nerve? Yep. But not for the reasons you might have expected. I am VERY conscious of what I am passing on to my daughter. You have no idea. I am also aware of the fact that unfortunately many parents do not always think through the potential ramifications of their actions/behaviours on their kids. I am NOT one of those parents.

What I am passing on to my daughter is a confidence that she is OK just the way she is, and that she can choose her friends from either gender pool. She should choose her friends based on their personalities, commonalities, values, interests, etc. I will teach her to open to everyone, yet aware of the motives and expectations of those around her.

PEI

This all sounds perfectly healthy, and very self-aware, to me.





Puppy

[PEI]

Hi all!

Hope everyone is having a good weekend ...

I was searching for the wording of a Maya Angelou quote for another post and came across this one. I hadn't seen it all together before and didn't want to lose it.

We can all learn much from this inspirational lady.

"I've learned that no matter what happens, or how bad it seems today, life does go on, and it will be better tomorrow. I've learned that you can tell a lot about a person by the way he/she handles these three things: a rainy day, lost luggage, and tangled Christmas tree lights. I've learned that regardless of your relationship with your parents, you'll miss them when they're gone from your life. I've learned that making a "living" is not the same thing as making a "life." I've learned that life sometimes gives you a second chance. I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both hands; you need to be able to throw something back. I've learned that whenever I decide something with an open heart, I usually make the right decision. I've learned that even when I have pains, I don't have to be one. I've learned that every day you should reach out and touch someone. People love a warm hug, or just a friendly pat on the back. I've learned that I still have a lot to learn. I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel."
— Maya Angelou

Peace
PEI

[Truegritter]

Love it girl.

Thanks.

[PEI]

Love it girl.

Thanks.

No problem buddy ... and it didn't even cost ya a quarter

[PEI]

I may as well jump into the fray and throw out my two cents regarding what I’m experiencing and feeling with regards to the “done” debate.

As a few of you already know, I have been experiencing a lot of inner turmoil. I’ve been struggling, and for some reason I’ve been hesitant to share that struggle. Maybe I didn’t want to seemingly contradict what I’ve been saying in my thread. Maybe I cared a little too much about the reaction I might get from some of you out there. Maybe a bit of both. But it’s not fair to you guys reading along and following my process trying to learn and draw strength from wherever you can, and it’s not fair to me either, so here I am.

I’ve been spending a lot of time really trying to even identify what part of this it is that I am struggling with.

As a kid I was always trying to get attention and praise from my parents … my dad was an emotionally unavailable alcoholic and my mom was co-dependant – she worked really hard to try to control the stuff she could ... like housework etc. I started school and got good grades which my parents were looking for, yet still got asked things like “how did so-and-so do” or “you got 94% … where did the other 6% go?”. I was bullied in school from grade 1 through grade 8 by my “best friend” (ah the joys of a small school) and learned over time that it was less painful to morph into what someone else wanted than to be myself. Problem was, what someone else wanted kept changing. FTR, I’m not trying to play victim here and I’m not looking for any sympathy, I’m just trying to provide some background. Anyway … nothing changed, I continued to be a person who sought approval from others, and I morphed from a manipulator into a control freak. The funny thing is, the whole time – or at various times throughout my life - I knew that I wasn’t really being true to me. Just didn’t know what to do about it.

I got to a point where although I drove the decisions, made most of the choices and gave hell when the situation wasn’t going my way … I never really focused on what I actually wanted or needed. It was all about what I thought I was “supposed” to do or what I thought was “expected of me” by someone, somewhere. My parents, the stage in life, society, my family, my boss, my coworkers, etc …. (no doubt to the outsider it looked like me getting what I wanted).

Ok, so what the hell does any of this have to do with my recent turmoil I’m sure you’re thinkin’ … I thought we were talking about being “done”…

I’ve been debating “done”, or maybe what I’m really debating is my right to be “done”. I feel done. I want to be done. Do I love him? Yes, unconditionally. Did I have enough of the lies, disrespect, cheating, etc? Yes. I made a choice to be done because I felt it was healthy for me. I’d had enough.

But I struggle with “is it ok to be done?” … I wonder if it’s what I’m “supposed to do”, what you guys expect of me, what my kids need, what our families think … etc …

And now I’m battling that demon.

Shel … can I borrow your sword?

[Albuquerque]

PEI,

Sounds like it many ways, you're going through your own "midlife passage" rather than a crisis. And it's healthy to do so. Become who YOU are rather than what you think is expected of you. I wouldn't recommend fighting that part.

As for what you're "supposed" to do, you know that none of us can answer that for you. It's something you need to work on yourself. And the fact that it's not an easy question to answer does not mean that it is unanswerable. And remember that you do not necessarily NEED to answer it RIGHT NOW. We know that the MLCers need time and space to go over their actions once they are coming out of their fog. There is no reason why this isn't the same type of thing. Talking with an IC may help. Putting your thoughts on paper(or electronically) may also help. Ultimately, you have to do what's right for you and there is nothing wrong with being unsure of WHAT that thing is right now. Regardless of what your decision is, when you've MADE it, you'll KNOW what your decision should be. ((HUGS))