Where does the WAW go

[Doodi]

@AJM-- I agree about working on my issues. Both H & I are starting to believe that none of the counselors are pro-marriage. I'm just glad that I have my doc to turn to. I will be stopping with this counselor. I was just seeing her for M but I need to work more on me and for that I'm going back to my shrink (she works with my depression.)

I will definitely have to work on the forgiveness. I thought I had come to terms with it and now I feel like it was just done. That is because he hits me with a more of the story 6 yrs later. Now its not so much that he may or may not have slept with someone else as much as he continued to lie to me just because.

Well when I go see my doc on Tues I will only be focusing on me. I learned that I can only control me, I just relapse sometimes.

I wish I could say that I wasn't fearful anymore but I still have some. I'm dealing because I get its not rational but I have to acknowledge that its there.

@soleil--The intimacy thing has always been the elephant in the room but now we are not tiptoeing around it anymore. I do worry that if I gave it up that it would do more harm than good. I am working on me but is it realistic to believe that he will be ok without a sexual relationship.

@Coach--I got my homework and I'm going to get on it. I've already read the 5 love languages and we know what to do but for some reason we still aren't meeting each others needs--he's touch, I'm acts of service.

I will admit that I'm a little confused between you and AJM. Call it niave but isn't me telling him what I want expecting changes in him?

To all my cyber-LBH's, I'm trying and I'm not bailing. Let's guide each other through these land mines. Maybe one of us will make it to the other side. All we can do is open our minds, listen and learn from each other.

A bit of journaling...

Well today has been ok. I don't feel like I've really done much for me but that's because I'm clueless as to where to start. Mainly, for myself I have just been upfront when things have gone to far but I tried to engage. H & I went on a lunch 'date'. We strolled town and had lunch. H came out of his comfort zone a little. I did have to ask a lot of questions but I was determined not to mind read.

I told H that when he had expectations in his head that he didn't share he was bound for disappointment. He asked to hold my hand and I did (me coming out of my box). Our conversation didn't flow completely comfortable but we kept it light and if it got uncomfortable we admitted it.

I think it was a good day but I hope that it wasn't leading him on. He said all the right things (he couldn't change my direction and all he could do is wait for me 'grow') so I'm taking him at his word and hoping I haven't messed up.

As for how I feel, I don't really know...I'm still trying to figure that out. My brain doesn't work right so I'm going to keep working on that.

Til next time,

Doodi

[Coach]

Call it niave but isn't me telling him what I want expecting changes in him?

No, he has a choice. You focus on the process not the outcome. That's why you prepare for the possible outcomes.

[Greek]

The intimacy thing has always been the elephant in the room but now we are not tiptoeing around it anymore. I do worry that if I gave it up that it would do more harm than good. I am working on me but is it realistic to believe that he will be ok without a sexual relationship.

No more tiptoeing is Goodness! It stinks right now b/c everything is a wreck and raw and painful ~ but the good side of that is that things are HONEST now. The chances of this area of your M improving are much better now that it's coming out in the open.

Greek

[Doodi]

Well I've been thinking, and I really think that's a bad thing. I've been trying to answer the question that many of you have asked..."Why did I fall in love/marry my H?" I'm starting to wonder if the reason I can't/won't answer that is because I'll just look/feel more like a monster.

When we originally met I did find him attractive, he was definitely the cutest guy to ever pay the poor lil fat girl-me-any attention. I've never had any self esteem so the only thing I had to offer was physical. H doesn't remember it this way, but I do(whose filtering...IDK). We were both just out of HS and on sex overdrive. We were both losers together, neither of us had gone to college and still lived at home. Not much more to it than that. We were only together for 6 months before he moved and it went long distance.

I can't say that we talked nightly but we did talk at least weekly. I have lived in Germany most of my life (always been a military brat) and really had no idea of the states. I did have a job here and tried a few college courses but never anything serious. Self-esteem issues, I've always felt like a loser. So for the next 2 yrs he lived in the US and I was in Germany. WE both worked and whenever we made enough and had a few days off we would fly to see each other. Our days hadn't really changed much...alot of physical and playing but that's it.

So when I look at those pre-marriage days I remember a lot of arguments with make up sex. I know we went to a lot of movies but I can't really say we ever sat around talking. I'm still learning some things after 20 yrs together. I never had a boyfriend, flirting or making out sure but never a boyfriend, prior to H. He paid attention to me and liked me even if I was a loser. So I in turn overlooked his anger and blow-ups. I overlooked his putdowns and guilt. If he could overlook my being boring and fat (I've always had a pretty face they tell me) then I could overlook his temper and hostility. Compromise, right?

I remember him saying some horrible hurtful things to me (hitting at my core insecurities) during our dating but I've always said, "I've been through worse, so I can get through this." I really just wanted out of my parents house. I had no idea how to get out and I had never lived in the US to really know I could do it, so H was my way out. And then once I was out of my parents house, I was trapped. I didn't know my family, lost touch with all my so-called friends, I was living in a foreign country (well foreign to me) and if I left I would not only be a loser but a failure too.

I know that's horrible to think the only reason I married him was to escape my folks and I'm not sure it's the only reason but it is one of my main reasons. The problem is I don't know if love is a reason at all. I know that I've always been afraid I would never find anyone better than H. I've always known his emotions were stronger than mine and I could never handle anyone being mad at me so I would do/say whatever it took so I didn't have to deal with negative feelings--basically I'd fake it.

I've faked everything in my life for so long I don't know what is real anymore. My relationship with my parents is not genuine. I can't stand my mom but she thinks I'm just a little withdrawn. I tell everyone it's easier to fake like I like her for a few hours a year than it would be to deal with the negativity. My dad and I are slowly learning each other (parents got a D 5 yrs ago and he's a different person) but I still feel like that little girl he was only to speak when spoken too and when I did speak I better be to say 'Yes Sir'.

7 yrs ago everything changed. H came back from Iraq with PTSD which really just made is issues worse. I couldn't take it and finally started seeing a shrink, and was diagnosed with depression. And the cherry on the sundae of change was the potential PA, that I will never know the truth about.

I started therapy first, and found the strength to bring it up for H to go. H started going but I don't know if it's ever really done much for him...His words.

Me on he other hand I know it has changed me. I'm stronger than I have been in my whole life. I started actually trying to find/figure out who I was. Did I have likes (yes until about 3 yrs ago I didn't even now...I just existed), what were they? I finally started to feel ok with telling someone I didn't want to do anything. I finally found my voice. I've been on meds and in therapy almost non-stop for 7 yrs. I say almost non-stop because therapy stopped a year ago, my shrink said she was certain I had the skills to handle life. As an individual, I can look back and see that I have made leaps and bounds in my life.

But those leaps and bounds I've made as an individual have destroyed my marriage. Now here I am in a marriage where I'm faking it. I feel myself doubting what I know I feel because of my old issues of insecurity/self-esteem. I am still worried about pissing everyone off and that's why I'm confused again. I have half of the people in my life saying get out and then I have the other half saying work on it. Now my happiness and individuality is going to effect so many is it right for me to want it?

When I look back over my life I notice that everything is always so dark. I have spent most of my life trying to NOT get noticed, being notice as a child in my house brought pain. I was often left on my own to care for my baby brother and I really don't remember much of a childhood. My mom was always focused on work and I was left to take care of everything else. If I messed up, it got ugly. I remember being beat with anything and everything over some of the smallest things. I could tell you about all the bad times and but that's not why I'm here.

My marriage though is taking the same dark filter. I look back and can think of times when I laughed and smiled but it seems like it was always over some 'grand' thing...Christmas, Disney World, etc. I can't remember just sitting around and enjoying being with H. He has fussed at me for almost anything and everything (notice the trend). He didn't do it nightly but you could feel the tension growing and could almost hear him biting his lip so he didn't say anything. But it could be anything, staying up late, going to bed early, what I cooked for supper, what I wore to the grocery, if the kids/I got too loud, if I asked to many questions when he was doing something, and on and on. It's my nature that once I get yelled at about something I try to never do it again, so here I am today barely able to do anything for fear of pissing him off. EGGSHELLS anyone.

I know I'm sensitive and read into things at times (yes I get I have to work on this) and one of my big problems is I've always wanted him to meet me halfway and understand my sensitive nature (wanting him to change, I get it).

But I'm also worried the thoughts about my H I have when things are 'peaceful'. When the emotions aren't flying around. I can't shake the feeling of not wanting to have to deal with him. I don't want to talk or do anything with him. I will do stuff and I will try to have fun but most of the time my first instinct is 'oh man, do I have to.' I don't know if that's because of our past and his unpredictability or something else.

These are the things I can't wrap my brain around. It's moments like this that I wonder if a separation wouldn't enlighten me as to my true feelings. I've never really been without him. I've never missed him. I just can't tell if I really feel like I want him gone because I don't love him anymore or if it's just because I'm so smothered right now.

Sorry this is random and so incredibly long but once I got going I couldn't stop. Call it journalling, call it spewing, call it a brain dump. But the bottom line is yes this is another post of confusion. I'm looking anywhere and everywhere hoping to find clarity. I just wonder about my confusion. Does it ever go away?

[Purple]

Hi doodi,

Have you looked up Codependency? I could have written what you wrote. Or maybe not, I don't seem to be able to write things down so they make sense for others.

[Doodi]

@Purple...Oh, I absolutely know I have co-dependency issues. I'm still working on those. Ok better to say that I'm learning more about them so I can work on them. I think it's one of the many reasons I question my true feelings.

Love your name by the way...it's my fave color.

[FindingMyVoice]

Good morning Doodi, hey, no apologies for allowing your thoughts and feelings to come out - it's good to see such a nice long post from you! It's never a bad thing to think...you're entitled to explore every one of your thoughts and emotions - they belong to you and you deserve them.

Yes, confusion is completely normal; though by all means, I can appreciate how uncomfortable it can be. Journaling is a wonderful way to help sort out all those mixed emotions, so by all means, let it out. (12bar once told me that and it really helped me, so thought I'd pass it along). It's a release - by just keep getting it out; sooner or later those efforts will help you start sorting all those confusing thoughts and feelings out.

As an individual, I can look back and see that I have made leaps and bounds in my life. ...

Now my happiness and individuality is going to effect so many is it right for me to want it?

YES!!! Yes you DESERVE your happiness... you have a RIGHT to it! Don't let anyone else tell you any different. And when people truly love and care for you, they want the same for you.

Granted, when one person in a relationship starts making changes - particularly such significant ones like you're making - the other person usually starts having and making big 'change back!' counter moves. Most of the time those reactions are simply their own confusion about your changes. You are a new 'you'- you may be speaking differently, doing different things - the whole nine yards. Change is frightening, so they typically - usually unconsciously - try to get you to 'change back' because that is simply what they're used to, not necessarily because they're trying to keep you from being happy. They're just trying to figure out how to relate to this new person they're seeing. (I read about this theory in Harriet Lerner's work...I've listed some of her books below) But I think there's a difference between that, and truly abusive behavior. 'Change back' tactics are a pain, but at least they're manageable. There's usually ways to react to them that help you both change the dynamic of the interaction and make the relationship stronger. But as you well know, abusiveness does not respond in that positive way and require strong boundaries. Doodi, you know your sitch more intimately than anyone else. If abusive behaviour persists, then no-one has the right to tell you that you should stay. Keep exploring your thoughts, feelings, and learning new behaviors, Doodi. You can trust yourself. And no matter what you decide, you have my support.

Have you read anything by Harriet Lerner? Her work has helped me immensely. She has quite a series of books, but the three that have helped me most are: The Dance of Anger, The Dance of Fear, and The Dance of Intimacy. They're very empowering; she somehow is able to make some pretty confusing, complex issues, more manageable to think about. I think you'd enjoy them, if you haven't read them already.

Take care Doodi, will continue watching your thread and cheering for you. You deserve a great life, and to be cherished by everyone in it. Take care, FMV.

[Doodi]

Most of the time those reactions are simply their own confusion about your changes. You are a new 'you'- you may be speaking differently, doing different things - the whole nine yards. Change is frightening, so they typically - usually unconsciously - try to get you to 'change back' because that is simply what they're used to, not necessarily because they're trying to keep you from being happy. They're just trying to figure out how to relate to this new person they're seeing.

I know I have a hard road ahead of me. One that is going to include many disagreements but I can't help but wonder if I'm deluding myself. Is this me falling into my old patterns and staying because it's what is actually easier (as much work as it is).

I can almost feel myself falling back into old habits. You know the ones..."sure hon, whatever you want." I guess it's hard to figure out what I want when the only thing I have in front of me is what H else wants. It's not to say that part of me doesn't want them but if I'm honest I wouldn't actually do half of the things I've been doing over the past few days. I'm doing them because I do want to make this M work but am I losing myself BECAUSE I'm doing them for him.

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. It really does in my head.

[FindingMyVoice]

What kinds of things can you do now to find yourself, while still in the M Doodi?

[Doodi]

What kinds of things can you do now to find yourself, while still in the M Doodi?

I don't know. I feel like H is crowding into every available moment. I know its really sad but I don't know where to even start looking for me. I've been a mom since I was 9 (first to my brother now to my kids). I read, I surf, and I watch movies. Nothing big, nothing to write home about. I'm just boring.

On the flip, I'm excited to do those few things because they have always caused tension between H and I.

I'm looking into finding a job now. I'm going to fill out an app for the school, since I love kids and they love me might as well make it positive right.