I know my MLC friends will disagree -- strongly -- with me here, but I just don't see the valor in taking the one, two, even three years (or longer) stances.
And I am grateful that you acknowledge that Pup. I have great respect for you POV.
I also have a great respect for what Wonka has been saying here.
"Valor" depends on who is handing out the medals.
Which takes more courage? IMO this battle is often fought with the most destructive weapons at first.
Who can wield the biggest knife.
Divorce? The sharpest knife in the drawer. And she knows it's there. She knows it was a possibility when she started the A. I think she is aware that she risked that.
So what does it communicate apart from the obvious. What does it say about you and the man you aspire to be?
It is what most people choose if you look at the divorce rate.
My point is this is a process and any decision you make should be based on who you are. IMO you are just starting to explore that. And you still have anger from this tragedy.
What do you lose by taking time for yourself? You feel you are being taken advantage of?
I have said this before: the courage it takes to make the tougher decision is to endure what it takes to grow. It takes handling the pain. It takes understanding who you are and what you believe.
Doormat? Only if you believe yourself to be one. And you will until you understand who you are and base your decisions on that.
When you understand that you are not the sum of other people's opinions, judgements or actions.
Filing for D is a bell you cannot unring. Just make sure you know why you are tolling the bell.
My feeling is this on standing for your M and it based on my experience and my own values and beliefs.
And that is, the most important part is that you base your decision on your own sense of of integrity, honor and values.
When you have done the work. Then you can make that choice from a healthy place.
How long? Up to each person. Do some get stuck? Yes. Do some reconcile? Yes.
It is not about the outcome it is the journey IMO. And I didn't come to that understanding until I had been on this path for quite a while.
But that's just me.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
I don't have time for that and don't want to wait until she decides what she wants to do. Her previous decisions put us here.
I make the decisions now for me.
I believe I am detached now more than ever. I am really unsure if I would want her back at this point. It would depend on the level of sincerity she brings to the table. And I'd still have to think about it.
But either way, her decision leads me to follow through. The analogy we used was to "walk her to the edge". I don't want to wait for another decision from her on when I can get my life going again.
I'm going to remind you of some wise words a friend of mine copied here to your thread :
Originally Posted By: Bear
How many are 'fear' you aren't done YOUR work yet? How many are OLD feelings? How many are impatience and frustration? How many are based in anger/resentment? How many are understanding where you are in this process?
And some more ....
Originally Posted By: Bear
Regarding you central theme of "when do I quit?"
What you need to ask yourself is what others continually ask of me:
What kind of man are you if you abandon all value in your vows to youself and your wife?
How different will you be if you cut and run because you are tired of "the battle"? Isn't that what she did?
Your questions about "when do I bail" are coming from frustration; anger; betrayal and impatience. Where is your love? Where is your empathy?
These are HARD questions. If you "quit" on your marriage and her, doesn't that confirm to her that you didn't love her and she DID make the right choice to leave?
And now it's starting to get REALLY good ...
Originally Posted By: Bear
You and I are both better than this.
We have to do what WE have to do for ourselves so that WE don't do the same things again in our next relationships. I am NOT going through this again, EVER. I need the skillsets and coping skills to prevent the deterioration of my next R. I need the self analysis and the boundaries to preserve MYSELF in the next R because "that guy" is important to ME and HER. THAT's who she fell in love with. And I need to CONTINUALLY be aware of my old patterns and NEVER let myself slide into dysfunction or taking her for granted.
The more I know about my values, needs, wants and capacities, the better I will be able to DECIDE who my next partner is.
And ALL of these discoveries and motivations are based in LOVE; not in spite of or in reaction to someone else.
I am learnig how to love properly. Loving myself and "the other". They are coming from a "kind" place. An understanding place. And I need to forgive myself to do that. Which requires that I forgive her and accept that she has made decisions I don't agree with. But she is free to make them.
Keep reading ....
Originally Posted By: Bear
And so are you. Her decisions weren't based in self-discovery or compassion or empathy or love. Don't follow her lead.
YOU LEAD!! Maybe she'll follow your example. Maybe not.
But you already see that there are opportunities for you as you learn more about you and rediscover the man she fell in love with. You got the opportunity (that she thrust upon you) to learn these things. Are you going to deny her the same opportunity?
Live your life. Do as you are doing. You are on the right path. If she wants to follow, she will. If not, you will find someone to be with without having to abandon her first. The hurt feelings that you use to "eject her" will follow you.
And you don't need that baggage.
That's how I am beginning to see things.
We're getting there ...
Originally Posted By: Bear
I don't like what my W did either. I hurt from her betrayal, too. I still see glimmers of the girl I married. But I'm not going to abandon my personal values and commitments to make myself feel better by hooking up with someone else or abandoning her to her consequences. That would be vengeful. I'm not that person.
I am above that. I believe you are, too.
And the ringer ...
Originally Posted By: Bear
You'll know when you are 'done'. And you aren't there. IMO.
Hey hon ... from where I sit you are tired and hurt and still trying to control the sitch. The fixer/controller in you is screaming right now. Trust me. I GET IT. Boy do I ever. I had some ugly fights with that demon. UGLY. And by times I still have to draw my sword and plant my feet.
Do me a favor ... hell, do yourself a favor ... be STILL. Just stop. For a few hours, a few days ... whatever it takes. Read your own words. Not mine, not Wonka's, not Sunny's, not Puppy's (I'm gonna get detention for that one!) ... YOUR words.
When YOU are ready to make a decision on your next steps from that place of understanding and kindness, not hurt/impatience/anger, you will know it. And IMO you know you're not there, YET.
And I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
Peace PEI
Holding onto anger to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in their eyes ~ 25yearsmlc
Divorce? The sharpest knife in the drawer. And she knows it's there. She knows it was a possibility when she started the A. I think she is aware that she risked that.
I disagree, TG. That's simply NOT been my experience. Most FWAWs report that they were STUNNED that their betrayed spouse filed. Mine certainly was. It's a "credible use of force" thing. To be credible, one has to believe that the other has both the capacity and the willingness to use it. Many, MANY of the newcomers with whom I post come hear practically DRIPPING with fear, and don't think that their husbands and wives can't smell it too.
Whatever you feel about one's moral right to ultimately file for divorce in these situations (and reasonable people can and do disagree on it), I don't think you can say that the walkaway/cheating/MLC spouse -- in their fogged-out condition -- has any real sense that their spouse may file for divorce.
More thoughts on the rest of your post later . . . GD.5 is giving me "raspberries," which means she's about had it, LOL.
As a former MLCer, I must stand up for MCLers here. I am of the opinion that most MLCers DO go on for years before the alien departs and the MLCer is dropped right smack back on terra firma with a very rude awakening. My MLC lasted for 5 years and it was not a fun experience at all. When I "woke" up from my own MLC, I was shocked and felt as if I disappeared all those years. MLCers are truly disengaged from world around them and it does take them a loooong time to find their way home. In hindsight, I don't blame my XW for her pain at all. My MLC journey will take up an entire thread by itself...so let's dispense with this and get back to the regular program of "Adventures of CD."
I can definitely say with authority that CD's W is not a MLCer. In my experience and from my readings, most MLCers range between the ages of 35 to 65. W is simply engaged in an A to escape from her own issues. A very selfish way to work through them.
If I were you, CD, I'd start formulating the "letting go" letter as in Gucci/Robox and send it to her. Meanwhile, prepare for the D paperwork and drop it on W's head when she expects it the least. It is truly time for "shock and awe" approach. And the best part, CD? You appear to have finally detached from W's behaviors and ready to tackle D head on. NNMNG!
Perhaps you can begin by drafting the letter to W here in this thread and we can assist with suggestions.
You have real good friends here and off site. I really, really like your buddy with whom you recently talked with about the progress with your W.
This is where we've had our disagreements in the past, TG. I just don't agree that this cuts only one way: "It's courageous to stand; you 'haven't done the work' if you don't."
For every one that you can show me who honestly, in their heart, are standing for their marriage after, say, a year or more of cheating from their spouse, I can show you two or three who are doing it out of simple FEAR.
Our community here is not a representative sample of the general population, let's face it. By the time people come here, they've already got marital dysfunction. So we see a LOT of co-dependent, enmeshed people here, and I counsel many, MANY who are simply TERRIFIED of losing their spouse, and who will put up with almost any sort of CB from them so as not to lose them.
As a former MLCer, I must stand up for MCLers here. I am of the opinion that most MLCers DO go on for years before the alien departs and the MLCer is dropped right smack back on terra firma with a very rude awakening. My MLC lasted for 5 years and it was not a fun experience at all. When I "woke" up from my own MLC, I was shocked and felt as if I disappeared all those years. MLCers are truly disengaged from world around them and it does take them a loooong time to find their way home.
I do think there are some for which that is true, Wonka. I've purposely spent more time on the MLC board the past several months, to try to open my mind to learn more about it, to be honest with you. I'm still learning.
It's been my observation, however, that anytime someone's only been at it for a few months, and seems strong, well-adjusted, detached and otherwise emotionally healthy, and reports to the community that they're ready to file for D (or expose the affair, or lay out a real firm boundary or something), that they get hit with a barrage of "You haven't done the work yet."
i.o.w., "If it's only been a few months, you can't possibly have done the work." It borders on self-flagellation sometimes, IMHO.
It's been my observation, however, that anytime someone's only been at it for a few months, and seems strong, well-adjusted, detached and otherwise emotionally healthy, and reports to the community that they're ready to file for D (or expose the affair, or lay out a real firm boundary or something), that they get hit with a barrage of "You haven't done the work yet."
i.o.w., "If it's only been a few months, you can't possibly have done the work." It borders on self-flagellation sometimes, IMHO.
Geez Pup, where'd you ever get that idea? To be fair, there are some very experienced folks over there who've seen the likes of me come and go more times than they can count, and more often than not they have been proven right in terms of a timeline. I do agree however, as anyone who's following my sitch can see, that everyone has their own timeline, and what takes years for some might not for others. I do think that the self work does take a long time, and a few months won't cut it for most. Keep in mind that I had already been in IC and was dealing with some of my issues pre-bomb.
IMO and based on what Bear himself wrote, I don't think he's where he wants to be when he makes these decisions. In fact, based on his reaction to his reaction yesterday he knows he's still got work to do.
PEI
Holding onto anger to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in their eyes ~ 25yearsmlc
I just don't agree that this cuts only one way: "It's courageous to stand; you 'haven't done the work' if you don't."
Pup I agree that most people who come here do have dysfunction. I would admit I was one of those people.
You always hear me talk about the process and I believe part of that process involves standing while you do your work.
That is just what I experienced. It was/is an expression of myself.
I think we both agree that it takes time and work for the LBS to heal and grow.
I would not and believe you would not consider it a success if someone leaves their M before they undersstand why and what they are doing nor would I say staying in your M because you fear losing your spouse or that it reflects on your own self worth if you don't save your M are equally unhealthy.
And you know I believe as Wonka said MLC throws a wrinkle into it.
I know you are basing your belief on what you experienced and yours is one of reconciled M and so can't argue what you say is not true. It was true for you and others I think.
Equally I am only a witness to my own journey and I was careful to point that is what it is based on.
My M has not reconciled. I don't know if it will. But I do not measure my success based on that.
You saw me when I first started posting here way back in Feb.
This process has definitely changed me and my understanding of things.
The point is I am not basing my decision out of fear but understanding.
The possibility of losing your M and your spouse are there with either decision.
And the LBS must come to that realization regardless of the choice.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
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