Where does the WAW go

[A_goodman]

Doodi,

Thank you. I know it doesn't seem like it right now, but you are helping a lot of people see the other side of the wall. I still don't understand why there is a wall. I don't understand it in my case or how it seems like walls are sprouting up everywhere. But learning from you has made it easier to see that the thinking on the side of the wall that's hidden from me isn't as carefree as I had imagined. There are probably a lot of new LBS who are also seeing second hand, through your anguish, that the advice they've been given about all the WRONG ways to scale that wall is correct and proper.

I really feel for you. I'm sorry that you are in so much pain. I'm glad that Sandi and Greek are on the case as well as AJM, MP, Soliel and the others. You are among friends, from both sides of the wall!

The advice not to rush headlong into any decisions might be the best advice you've been given. Many times while catching up on this thread, I found myself thinking STOP, STOP, STOP. I know you are in a foriegn land, without much in the way of support. But maybe a short vacation? Time is a good thing, unless you fill it up with pressure. Maybe a few days away from the pressure cooker would help you both. Maybe you could take a couple of days just to rest and unwind, then spend some time listing your needs and boundaries that need to be met to move forward.

BTW, AJM is right, still you have not answered his query about what you saw in your H in the first place. Maybe you should include that in your work. There're several lists in my mind.

good vs bad traits

positives vs negatives for staying. for leaving

Things that you need to move forward.

The point is these are all things you categorize cognitively, not emotionally. You need to start THINKING and let that guide your actions.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Goodman, that's an awesome post.


Puppy

[A_goodman]

Thanks Pup. I'm learning from the best.

[soleil]

I know you are feeling very badly right now. I have been there and I will tell you...

I actually wish he had an EA/PA so I could rationalize things better.

If he was having an EA/PA, it may make you undrestand his actions better but it does so much harm. I used to think this way about my H too. But knowing that it did happen, broke something inside me when he told me (I'm a little dramatic today lol). I will never look at his face and see him the same again.

As for the fog, it does lift. And I agree with the poster who said you cannot expect him to make the decision for you. Limbo sucks for everyone involved.

[AJM]

Doodi. I think I see some patterns here. I can feel the confusion. I can feel the hurt. I can feel the frustration. I can feel the...depression. I'm no doctor, but I highly suggest you consider talking to one about depression. You are headed there now whether situational or due to other circumstances. But do it now before you spiral and sink. It's not a fun place.

One of the things that comes to mind is that you need to change how you look at things. It was suggested in one response when somebody mentioned Coach's suggestion about learned optimism. When you focus on positive things, suddenly other things don't look so bleak. I've been prodding you to do that so far and you have been resisting.

Why to people tell you your marriage is over? Because they see you in pain, Doodi. They want to "fix" it. Be aware of that.

I saw some other things that came to mind:

She believes that I have way too many issues for him to overcome.

Interesting. Why do you have issues that he needs to overcome, exactly? That's backwards to me.

Why does everyone else in the world think my M is hopeless. I just feel like it's shattered into a 1000 pieces and I just need time/patience/persistence to get it back together. The problem is right now, I don't even have all the pieces. I'm searching and I feel like because I brought this all up everyone expects me to have the answers. Noone will let me just say, I DON'T KNOW! I just know I can't keep going like this.

Good. You should feel that way, rigtht. If it was intact and perfect, how would you reconstruct it into a better one? Sheesh. Every kid knows you have to dismantle the legos before you can put them back. And they always end up missing things. That's ok, Doodi. You'll make new ones. If your marriage was hopeless and over, you wouldn't be here. Rest assured it is not over. It's a long way from over so far based on what you posted. This is a marathon, Doodi, not a sprint. Time limits are not going to work here.

I get you on the intimacy but how do I get him to understand? He thinks because I'm not ready to kiss, cuddle or anything else that I'm not trying. That I don't want us to work.

Has it occurred to you that his love language is touch? Don't confuse intimacy with touching though. That is different. Touching is the result of intimacy. It should happen in that order.

I need to work out my issues that I have with him

Hmm... Not sure what to say to that, except...YES! But that's not all that this is about now is it? Just sayin'

I just know I'm farging damaged and I need repairs but it's going to take time...a long time. I just am starting to believe that I can't make those repairs if I stay in this house.

Hmm.. Really? Why? Why would it help if your kids stayed with him and you "took time off" ? I can tell you that would be more damaging than anything and my fear in that is that you would be "fixed" and come home to...nothing. I suggest you find a way to fix you - not him - while at home.

Can you feel the chaos that is my brain? Can you feel the desperation to do what's right but having no clue what that is? Can you feel the concern I have for this poor man that I have destroyed?

Yep. On all counts. But I feel like you are sliding deep into depression. I can't put my finger on it and I'm no doctor, but I sense that you are headed there. Could be situational. Could be something else. But worth talking about with your doctor. It happens and people live with it.

I was trying to do everything right. Why do I always mess things up.

See above.

I've had a handle on my depression for awhile now, but today I feel myself spiraling. I am clinging to my sanity right now for my kids. I know as soon as I put them to bed I will lose it. The question is will I be able to figure this out.

See above again. Please.

I don't know. The memories are all so tainted right now I can't imagine what it would be like to be in a good R. Ours has never really been healthy and things went downhill even further abut 7 yrs ago. Now I'm just too damaged to hold out hope.

Really? What happened exactly? Why are the memories "tainted"? I suspect you are protecting your inner self and re-remembering but I could just be projecting. People do that. Both things really

I feel like I don't have time to do any of that. My H wants answers/changes now.

Um. Duh. Of course he does. How can he understand?? You don't even understand....PATIENCE Doodi. Stop analyzing him. Stop looking at him for answers. Stop wasting your time doing that.

but I'm concerned because the only reason he is doing anything is for me.

Again...duh! He loves you and sees you in pain. That's what husbands do when they see that. Again...duh!

He says I'm trying to change him. I need him to do this for himself otherwise he's doing it for the wrong reason

Doodi. You are trying to change him, remember? This is an issue you don't need, is it not? He's right on that one. And you have no right to change him, Doodi. Stop doing that. Stop looking elsewhere for the answers.


I think you should really understand forgiveness, Doodi. You will at some point in your life, and I suggest that if you do so now, things will be easier instead of doing it later. It may be you that you ultimately end up forgiving, but it could be others.

These are my thoughts based on what you wrote. I hope they help, Doodi. I think you are asking the right questions, but still wrapped around the axle. Stop. Take a breath. Isolate your issues, prioritize them, and tackle them one at a time. Don't follow the tangents.

And please, see a doctor. I'm concerned that you are going to have way more trouble figuring things out if you have depression (which can be situational and caused by stress. Had any stress lately?

Peace to you and yours.

[Doodi]

Trying to Catch up (Get comfy this may take awhile)...

@MP--I'm hoping for the peace that comes with time. I'm trying to be patient, but AJM will tell ya I have my moments with that.

@Pookie--Maybe rationalize isn't the best word...I guess I feel I need a more concrete reason than just 'we have issues.'

@Puppy--H has been trying to rush me with alot. He wants answers as to what I specifically need (I'm trying to figure this out), when I'm leaving (I keep saying I don't want to but he doesn't believe me), and he wants instant/daily visible change.

@Kalni--I really have been trying to detach. I think I've done it better than H likes but I think the problem was he didn't understand why. You are absolutely right about making solid decisions...I'm no where near ready for that yet.

@Dan--I get that I may have been the catalyst for H recognizing he needs to look at himself, but he has to decide what he wants to change on his own. Otherwise, is he really himself or something I told him to be. Not to mention, I would think that if you do something for someone else you are less likely to stick with it. We are all selfish, no matter what we might think, so he needs to do it for himSELF.

@Goodman--I'm so happy that something is coming from my pain. I can only speak of my walls; they came from years of hurtful events. I would open myself to him and when I would get hurt a "brick" was put up. Now it really is about trust and forgiveness for me but I have to get there and that will take time.

It's funny that you mention a trip. I've been hoping for a him to go on a business trip for awhile. I have a solo weekend planned for October but right now I don't know if I can sneak off. I'm just trying to make the most of my hrs I have when everyone is at school/work.

I know I haven't answered what drew me to H and I will do that soon. I honestly am working on the list myself. I'm a little behind on my 'homework' right now.

And now for the man with the 2x4's AJM!

First, let me say I know about the depression. It is not situational it is clinical. I am on meds and have been for many years now. It is one of the many issues. Honestly, dealing with my depression is what started me to this place I'm at today.

Normally, I am optimistic but like I said yesterday when I was posting I was spiraling and when I spiral I can't see anything positive.

Now your points...
*My IC says that I have so much anger, pain, and resentment with very little trust in H and those are the things she believes will keep us from working. She says he has to overcome but I do realize this are my problems to deal with. My feelings are aimed at him but I have control. (I told you I get it).

*H's language is absolutely touch. I've tried to give him some of what he needs but he constantly is coming for kissing/sex. I'm just not there. I am willing to give a little and hopefully I'll be able to give enough.

*Believe it or not, I don't WANT to leave. I do want to work on this at home. I just feel like I'm fighting to many battles right now to get anything accomplished at home.

*The issue from 7 yrs ago is where the trust died. He was away on a trip and when he came home I noticed a unknown phone number on his hotel bill. At first, I just asked...but he lied and I caught it. Before I confronted him about his lie I called the number and it was a girl. I spent the next 4 days wading through lie after lie as he tried to cover up the situation. I finally accepted what I thought was the truth and tried to move on. I only found out recently, on D-day, that he was still lying and yet something else came out...6+ yrs later. So I don't know if it was actually PA but because of the lies I will never know for sure.

With that I have to go. I'll catch you guys later. Thank you so much for everything. You kept me from plummeting last night.

Smooches,
Doodi

[AJM]

*My IC says that I have so much anger, pain, and resentment with very little trust in H and those are the things she believes will keep us from working. She says he has to overcome but I do realize this are my problems to deal with. My feelings are aimed at him but I have control. (I told you I get it).

Really? I now have to agree with others that this IC is pretty lame. Why do I say that? Because you WILL have to deal with those issues - apart or together. Period. Telling you that the marriage won't work because of it? That's BS. That has nothing to do with it as thousands of married couples could tell you.

Here's something for you to consider. To put an issue to rest, it must be dealt with. If your H was unfaithful or broke the trust, then I suggest you start there and put that to rest once and for all. Let him know he needs to tell the entire truth as he knows it. When done. Give it a few days to figure out if you can let it go (you will have to at some point in your life - know that) and then live with that decision. Be done with it. Period. Whatever you choose, put that issue down for the rest of your life. From there, if you decide to stay in the marriage, figure out what it is going to take to rebuild the trust. Don't skip this. If you stay or if you go, you and your H have kids to deal with. There will have to be some level of trust between you. Figure out what you need to be able to rebuild that trust because there will be a test

Trust is important Doodi. I think you deserve to trust. And rebuilding that trust is important. But you won't be able to rebuild it if you cannot put it to rest.

Since you so far want to stay, do the hard work. Don't expect your H to change. That's not the right mindset. If he changes, that's up to him. But set everything else aside for right now and see if you two cannot put that to rest. Regardless of the pain it may bring.

Everything else? It'll be there later.

And talk to your doctor about the depression to be sure you are getting what you need in terms of care. Please.

I think those two things together should take a bit of time. But don't be afraid to have the conversation. To let him know how you feel about it. Be sensitive in the conversation that he'll feel guilty and angry etc. Remember he may think this is a deal that is over and you have forgiven him for. But it sounds like it is not and I cannot see you letting this go on any longer.

Have a great weekend Doodi. Don't be afraid - the fear is worse than the reality, and if we live in fear of what may happen, we often make it happen. Nothing to be afraid of at this point, Doodi.

Be at peace and do the work.

[soleil]

My IC says that I have so much anger, pain, and resentment with very little trust in H and those are the things she believes will keep us from working.

Your IC is 100% correct.

*H's language is absolutely touch. I've tried to give him some of what he needs but he constantly is coming for kissing/sex. I'm just not there.

I think this is very natural. When you have been so hurt by someone else, it's hard to be intimate with them in that way. In fat, it has the opposite effect. Makes you feel empty in a way. So what you are feeling is natural. I think men can be more physical about sex than women whereas we tie sex into our heads/emotions.

[Coach]

Doodles, You need to challenge some of your thinking. You are not a optimist. I read it in your posts. Google Martin Seligman "Learned Optimism" and look up explanatory style. You have a pessimistic style of thinking - causes depression. It will help you if you do the work.

Read up on boundaries. Your H wants something to do to help - give him something. Tell him what he does that hurts you and causes you to be unattracted to him. Tell him to read "His Needs- Her Needs" and "The Five Love Languages." Let him know you are working on yourself. Let him know that this M isn't working neither one of you are getting your needs met. If this continues then the outcome will be a D.

One of the reasons all the LBHs here are begging you to stay is because they didn't know why their wife was this miserable. They kinda knew it but didn't know how to talk about it. But as you see dropping the bomb and walking away is very effective. Have a plan for reconciling and if things don't work out. Have choices.

Google Seligman it will help you today.

Cheers

[MakingProgress]

I thin

One of the reasons all the LBHs here are begging you to stay is because they didn't know why their wife was this miserable. They kinda knew it but didn't know how to talk about it. But as you see dropping the bomb and walking away is very effective. Have a plan for reconciling and if things don't work out. Have choices.

Google Seligman it will help you today.

Cheers

One of the other reasons is that we all wish that someone had helped our WAW's before they walked away and want to believe that a WAW can come back from this point.