You can't have everything, where would you put it?

[awest1217]

Why does it have to be a competition? Why can't it be that you are both parents of the same wonderful girls?

I am wondering if D11 is excited about the picture and starting to act more like STBXW because she allows D11 to talk about everything. I understand you don't want to know about what STBXW is doing, but it is a part of D11's life and she is starting to show her interests. If D11 feels that she can't talk to you about STBXW, which shows how interested she is in what STBXW is doing, then why should she talk to you later about things D11 does when it directly relates to STBXW?

I just really feel more and more that you are on a very slippery slope. You are a great dad and see the girls everyday, which is great because you honestly see them almost 50% of the time which is what you wanted when this all started. Be angry, go through this anger stage, but you really need to watch what you do with the girls. Don't allow that anger to transmit to them. You have said before that D11 is very perceptive. You may want to talk to her about how she feels and how your anger is affecting her. D8 right now, is just still sad about the D and no matter how much you show her that you can't stand STBXW, she will always want to see you two together.

One last question, not that STBXW is a saint, but if D8 asked you to put up a picture of STBXW, would you? STBXW is horrible for making you leave and Ding you. She has some major anger problems of her own, but she is trying to work with you. How can she change being demanding of you or being nicer to you when you won't even be in the same room as her? You can't change her or what has happened, but you can control yourself and your future.

Allow yourself to be angry because anger is an important emotion, but beware that it doesn't turn into a grudge and hatred and bitterness.

[whatisis]

It really is tough, isn't it CTH. My wife still has pictures of us as a family hanging in her home. I have none of her in mine and the kids have never asked. I too would allow D to talk about her mother's activities without brushing them off. For example, what does your D find "cool" about Mom's biker jacket? Does D see herself as being a biker one day? (I know, I know...you'd hate it)Inquire more about how the info is being interpreted by the kids to find out more about how their little minds are working rather than seeing it as a "report" on STBX's activities. It's a learning tool. It's one you wish you didn't have to utilize but what is is! My guess is that if you show interest and a willingness to comment, the frequency of these discussions will drop off. This is a huge adjustment for the kids too and sadly they had absolutely no say in what happened to their family.
Anyway, just my thoughts.

[CityGirl]

It's not a competition. Only you can work on your mindset and change that outlook that seems to be ingrained in your head.

And really think about this.... if you are worried about not having the daily influence on your girls then why in the world did you wave your daughter off when she tried to open up to you? I understand you don't like the subject matter (your exW) but waving off an 11 yr. old girl who is trying to open to their dad is not cool. It's really rude to wave anybody off when they are talking. You are essentially sending the message that they can come to you and talk ONLY if you like the subject matter.

I know you are hurt and angry but you are projecting many of your issues on to your children.

And no, being in shape did not "hurt you". It's small comments or observations you make that really keep you in victim mode. Yes, we are all victims to WAS's but we don't have to stay victims.

You are very lucky to have two children that are so present in your life. I know it's difficult but please consider NOT shutting them down when they try and talk to you about their mother.

[ImprovedRomeo]

I still have a handful of family pictures in the house because they don't bother me one bit. In fact, DD has a 3 picture wallet which holds two of her baby pics and one of me and STBXW's together- it was a glamour shot (her's not mine) we had taken just before we'd gotten married. In fact, she was showing it to one of the neighbors the other day which I thought was pretty cute. She still draws stuff with the three of us in them. We'll always be a family to her no matter what.

Here's a tip that can help, shooting darts at the pics is a good way to kill a few hours and some times I draw the devil ears and the mustasche on them too kidding of course!

[ClingingToHope]

I am processing the comments above. One point. I do have pictures of STBXW up. Last year, I made some photo collages for the apartment and allowed the girls to pick the pictures. They picked several where it was all four of us.

Interesting parenting dilemma today. After school sitter called. She says she had $350 in her purse yesterday when she took D8 to the park.

When she got home last night she said she was missing $100. She is a very sweet girl. I do not think she is scamming me. I cleaned the living room thoroughly this morning -- no money.

I'm meeting the girls in 30 minutes. I'm going to tell them what happened and ask them to help me look. I really don't think, and am praying, that they wouldn't see the money and take it.

I don't think any of the neighbor kids were inside.

If we can't find it, I guess I have to give her $100.

[NoCodeBlues]

I agree one should never shut your children down. But at the same time, we have an obligation to help teach our children discretion and sensitivity. We don't do that through showing them "the hand" but neither do we allow them to pursue or to persist in subject matters upsetting to others, including ourselves.

It's better to set observable and understood boundaries with our children -- while teaching them respect and common courtesy by how we treat them.

This one is a touchy area... you have to weigh the situation more carefully.

[CityGirl]

NoCodeBlues - that is an interesting viewpoint.

I agree that discretion and sensitivity is very important! But there are subject matters that children and parents need to discuss that very well might be upsetting but necessary. So where do you draw the line? I am actually just curious!

It will hardly be comfortable the day CTH's daughter comes to him and says "dad, I just got my period" or "dad, I have questions about sex" but he is going to have to deal with it, right? My thought pattern would be if his kids know HE feels some subjects are off limits they will follow suit and be very selective about what they keep sharing with him.

My own father was very selective in what he would discuss with my sister and I about ANYTHING. Instead of trying to guess what was suitable conversation so he wouldn't get all bent we decided the best course of action was to tell him nothing. He got pleasantries from us and that was it. Kids catch on quick.

It's a dilemma I am sure. The divorce is between two adults that happen to have two children. Since custody is shared there will always be some cross over discussion I would think.

[ImprovedRomeo]

She speaks the truth.

The kids should feel they can come and talk to us about anything without fear. I know it's difficult at times but we're the adults so we should just suck it up and be there for them. I know CTH from his posts, he loves his kids, he is a GREAT dad so he'll find a way to put his feelings aside and allow his kids to share their feelings freely.

Wii is a great example too...his teenage daughters bond with him more than their mom!...I hope my little one feels that way with me too. It's not easy being a parent and it's twice as difficult being a single parent.

[NoCodeBlues]

Where do I draw the line? Or are you asking where does anyone draw the line?

It depends of course, as you should very well know. And I am certainly not going to make prescriptions for everyone. My statement was in the context of how much one should allow one's children to discuss the other parent, but I guess it does apply to many other subjects as well.

I understand the intent to not cause harm to our children, presumably by trying to avoid conversations better left undiscussed. One should not trample over your kids' feelings, but at the same time let's not err on the opposite extreme either, letting your children trample over your own boundaries. Allowing your children to walk all over you does them no good at all; it's negligent even.

There's a broad space between those extremes, of course. But we need to remember them all the same. We need to draw that line somewhere that is healthy. Where that line is depends on the individuals, their personalities, ages, maturity, etc.

I'm uncertain of your motives in positing the question, CG. Surely, you have drawn your own lines, right? If you're honestly curious on where I might draw the line for myself and my children, I will say that I am continually sorting that out -- but I will offer that my oldest is an Asperger's child. He has a particular insensitivity to certain empathic queues most people would pick up on. And being exceedingly curious, he is always asking very pointed questions and persisting in conversations about matters that make many people around him quite uncomfortable. He has a blind-spot for such things, as part of his neurological condition, and through years of working with him he has come a long way. But he might suffer these handicaps the rest of his life.

In my own case, he will talk for hours if you let him about his mother and her H (OM) and include information entirely irrelevant to me and his life in my household. Often it is just TMI. I usually let him spout off while praying he will quickly change subjects. Eventually I have to coax him to a different topic, but it's often like trying to get a bulldog to let go of a huge hambone. It becomes a curious balancing act of allowing my son the courtesy of expressing himself without letting him go too far, weighing the potential harm in cutting him off versus the irritation or pain his candidness might cause me, his brother or others present. Yes, I'm a "big boy" and thus better able to shoulder the balance of the difficulty in these opposing objectives. Better I should suffer than to needlessly bruise his ego.

The question to ask is this: Is it needed?

That's where we need to weigh our needs versus their needs. And when it comes to words spoken we need only remember to T.H.I.N.K. before we speak:
T. Is it True?
H. Is it Helpful?
I. Is it Inspiring?
N. Is it Necessary?
K. Is it Kind?

Heck, now I feel like I'm lecturing again.

But this is how I am trying to instruct my oldest S, S9. (And yes, it does indeed work both ways.)

By contrast, my youngest, S5, is neurotypical and he requires an entirely different approach. He is much more sensitive and more conscious that his words can be inappropriate at times, as he has often suffered his older brother's foibles.

It is a line we each need to decide for ourselves. If we do not establish proper healthy boundaries with our own children, then how can they learn these principles for their own lives without our model?

... Sheesh, there I go again. Lecture over!

[CityGirl]

Where do I draw the line? Or are you asking where does anyone draw the line?

Well, you are not the only poster or participant in the conversation so anybody who cares to answer is welcome.

It depends of course, as you should very well know. And I am certainly not going to make prescriptions for everyone. My statement was in the context of how much one should allow one's children to discuss the other parent, but I guess it does apply to many other subjects as well.

I should very well know? Why is that? I don't have children. I was a child of a parent, a father, who was very selective on what he would talk to his children about so this particular post was very interesting to me. Talking to somebody who waves you off when the conversation is not all sweetness and light gets old. Fast. The incident I was referring to did not go on for hours but was (IIRC the exact scenario) a brief conversation that was halted by the dad.

I understand the intent to not cause harm to our children, presumably by trying to avoid conversations better left undiscussed. One should not trample over your kids' feelings, but at the same time let's not err on the opposite extreme either, letting your children trample over your own boundaries. Allowing your children to walk all over you does them no good at all; it's negligent even.

I guess we all view communication a different way. IMO a child communicating with a parent about a subject (the other parent) should never be off limits. The child is still learning how to deal with the very, very raw reality of divorce. My father would communicate nothing about the divorce to us and eventually we stopped trying.

I see lots of kids walking all over their parents during a divorce but rarely do I see it in the form of communication... the wailing for "family hugs" and the dramatics over what amounts to be nothing (forgetting an item, a broken toy or whatever the drama du jour is) amazes me each day. That is what I view as negligent... the parents that allow their kids to act out their frustration in an inappropriate way to give them "leeway" to adjust. I don't view talking as negligent. Not communicating with your children is negligent in my opinion.





I'm uncertain of your motives in positing the question, CG. Surely, you have drawn your own lines, right?

I didn't have any motives other than I was curious and wanted to know. I do not have my own line because I don't have children. Surely, you can realize that a 5 and 9 year old boy are in much different stages of development and emotional sophistication than an 11 year old girl. And given what you shared about your son (which I can relate to in a way as my H's cousin is autistic and I was very close to her, or as close as she would allow me to be, for 11 years) I am not sure the situations are comparable. Your son, due to the nature of his condition, processes things in a different way. Watching my H's aunt have to set very firm boundaries with her little girl certainly did not reflect how other parents had to set boundaries for non autistic children.

I can imagine it is terribly difficult to listen to your son talk about his mom and her boyfriend but is it really irrelevant to your life and household since YOUR SON is part of your life and household. He may have questions or concerns or be very confused one day and when he was shut down from talking about irrelevant things how do you know he will feel it's safe to talk about important things? I get we all have our limits.


It is a line we each need to decide for ourselves. If we do not establish proper healthy boundaries with our own children, then how can they learn these principles for their own lives without our model?

I guess the question to ask then is if indeed the boundaries you (general you, not you per say) are "healthy" or not.

... Sheesh, there I go again. Lecture over!

A lecture indeed. Sometimes conversations are far more productive and interesting than a lecture