Where does the WAW go

[Doodi]

Well today has gone from bad to worse. Well that's how it feels anyway. H came home today and decided that he was going to confront me. He kept saying that I hadn't been trying and that I should just leave. I know I didn't handle it right at all because I lost it. I asked him how he could think I wasn't trying when all I've been doing the last few months is what he has asked of me, regardless of how it made me feel or if I thought it would be hurtful/helpful. I figured if I was asking for his patience while I dealt with things then I would do what he asked. So over the past few months here's what I've done...

He asked me to be open about what was in my head. I told him that I didn't think he could handle the things in my head because they were pretty ugly and against my better judgement I've answered every question he has come at me with over the past few months. I knew that my thoughts were chaotic and hurtful and I tried to tell him that I needed to figure out some things before I opened up but he couldn't wait so I told him. The more I said the more he pushed.

I've told him that I didn't feel like I could love him the right way right now so while I was working things through that I didn't want to say ILY or be physical...mostly because my heart wasn't in it so it wouldn't be right. He turned that into I didn't love him at all.

I've told him that I feared him. Some of it was because I was damaged in my childhood (abusive parents) and some of it was his raging. He told me I needed to deal with that, there was nothing he could do.

I've told him that I can't relax when he's around because I never know what is going to set him off. So I was constantly nervous.

Basically when I dropped the 'bomb', saying I had some issues and things I needed to work through. He took it as everything was my problem and I needed to fix me and he was just to sit back and wait.

So fast forward several months, several counseling sessions, and countless arguments and you get to today. Today when he came at me I finally lost it. I told him that I was so tired. I was tired of fighting the thoughts in my head AND having to fight him because things weren't happening fast enough.

He's been telling me over and over to just admit that I was leaving. No matter how many times I told him that yes it was a thought in my head but I wasn't there yet he kept saying I was lying and that I should just admit it. He said that he could see I was done so why was I fighting it, that I should just admit it. I told him that I couldn't understand how he could be say he was wanting me to stay in our marriage but at the same time he was pushing me out the door. I told him I understood that it was frustrating that I couldn't give him concrete reasons why I was staying and all I've kept saying that as long as I had a glimmer in my head that might work out that I would keep fighting...that wasn't enough. I just don't get why me staying here and trying isn't good enough. The bottom line is I finally said fine...I'll leave.

I told him that he convinced me. I must be done and that I would stop trying to convince myself that I should fight. I told him that he was right, I must be stupid to believe that we had a chance. He kept saying that he could see that I didn't believe it, he could see I was done. I tried to tell him to stop guessing about what was in my head and he just kept saying that it was obvious so I should just face it. So I did. Who was I to listen to my head/heart...I would just listen to him.

So now, here I am. I haven't gone as in depth because I didn't want to upset him, but I have to take care of me. So here I am stuck overseas trying to figure out what to do next. My IC counselor is here (and I even called my shrink back because I know I need help). I want the kids to come with me but I didn't want to yank them out of school and move the across the world. I was hoping that H and I could work on us during the school year. I don't know, maybe putting a time limit on things hurt us. Of course, he kept pushing for a date.

I've told him I will stay in the house as long as he wants and can handle it. I told him that all he could do now is accept its over. I am going to see my counselor and shrink and keep working on me. I told him he needed to keep seeing his IC to work through his issues. I think I screwed up because I'm pretty sure I said that we could reevaluate things when we got our individual acts together (not trying to lead him on but I won't even think about it until then).

He acts like I should be doing cartwheels and cheering since I finally said it. I told him that it hurts me too and that I've been working trying to avoid this. I feel like I don't have any choice anymore. I ended up losing my cool and crying...not to mention reading him a few of the things I had posted on here (yes I'm trying to be transparent).

It has just been one hellacious day. I hope someone out in cyperspace can help me.

Doodi

PS>>I would have loved to have seen the things you guys wrote/advised me of earlier but by the time I saw it, the crap had hit the fan.

[AJM]

I asked him how he could think I wasn't trying when all I've been doing the last few months is what he has asked of me, regardless of how it made me feel or if I thought it would be hurtful/helpful. I figured if I was asking for his patience while I dealt with things then I would do what he asked. So over the past few months here's what I've done...

He asked me to be open about what was in my head. I told him that I didn't think he could handle the things in my head because they were pretty ugly and against my better judgement I've answered every question he has come at me with over the past few months. I knew that my thoughts were chaotic and hurtful and I tried to tell him that I needed to figure out some things before I opened up but he couldn't wait so I told him. The more I said the more he pushed.

Can you blame him for his thoughts? I mean really, you have your thoughts and are asking him to give you space. Does it not seem reasonable that he should have his feelings?

You may be hurt, but so is he. You both are wounded, lying in a puddle of blood. Both of you have the defenses up. Both of you are wounded....

Be compassionate as well. Show him how you want to be treated even if he cannot reciprocate. He should do the same, but that's not to say he will. See, you cannot control him.

Imagine for a second being in his shoes. His wife, the woman he loves deeply has just told him she doesn't love him. Um, hello? That'll send you over the edge. Really. It causes your world to come crashing down, often without notice. You may have sent "signs" but that doesn't mean he understood them. Kind of the mars/venus thing. You may feel frustrated for sending the signs, praying, sacrificing a cat (I'm joking about that), or whatever you did to try and communicate your issues. What he's heard is that you have issues from your childhood, you don't like how he treats the kids, you feel you need to walk on eggshells around him, and you don't love him anymore.

What do you think he is going to do in that situation? What would you do if you were surprised by that news?

That said, it does sound like you need change. Change in yourself and change in him. Change in the dynamic. Acceptance of yourself. Acceptance of him. Acceptance of what life is. Change comes after that honest look.

You may not have wanted things to be done this way, but you also were not willing to let them be the way they were. Kind of stuck, eh?

Guess what? So is he. You both are in limbo and from his perspective you put both of you there. He doesn't like it either.

Compassion. Respect. Those are very important things for you both while you go through this.

When you tell somebody you aren't going to say anything..then don't. That's a boundary and once you declare a boundary, maintain it for all you are worth.

You wished for change. It's here now. It doesn't have to end badly. You don't both have to go your separate ways. You can still tell him you don't want to leave. It is not yet too late for that. It will be eventually if left unchanged.

I admire your honesty. I really do. I know you didn't ask to come to this place and have to deal with this stuff. Really takes away from other enjoyment. But since you are here, and since you will have to deal with it now or later, I vote you deal with it now before your marriage is over.

I sense that you don't want the marriage to be over but you seem stuck in the middle of that and wanting, no, needing change in yourself as much as anything. Starting there may be all you can do. You may lose the marriage in this process, but you may end up with a much better marriage. Part of life really.

Don't beat yourself up for what you've said. I for one think that your honesty is the right thing to do. I think you should also communicate to him that you need to work through the issues and will do so with or without his help, but would like to have his help. Be clear and concise in saying that. Don't assume you got your message across, because you have already confused him and damaged the trust the two of you had.

You may also want to communicate to him that you would like his support. Be clear and concise in what that means. i.e. no telling friends and family. Earning each other's respect and trust every day. Don't guess at what he needs to feel respected. Ask. There may be some things you cannot give. But there are others you can. Such as compassionate listening. Ask for the same in return.

Really Doodi. Don't beat yourself up for bringing this up. But understand the emotional roller coaster that he is going through watching this and living it. He has just as much emotional stress over this as you, if not more. Be compassionate and respectful of his feelings and you may find that he can become your greatest ally. Don't, and it's assured how this will end.

I can tell you that from experience with a STBX that did very similar. It saddens me to read your posts, because I can see my STBX in the posts. To some degree. I watched as she told me all kinds of crazy things. As she went through a process to try and justify why she was leaving and giving very confusing stories. It has gotten to a point where I cannot know what the reason was or the truth any longer. Our situations are different in that I truly believe the issues were much more for her. But I do see some similarities and it is gut wrenching to watch this for you. To see your sadness and frustration here.

I feel it is a good idea to ask the questions however. To ask what it was that you saw in your husband that made you marry him. What is it that was in your heart? Why did you lose it? What was your part?

I ask that last bit because you CANNOT fix him. You can only fix you. The longer you look at him expecting him to change and make you happy, the more you will drive him away. That is not how this works. You cannot change others. Cannot. Cannot. You can only change you. I've seen it time and again in person and on these boards.

Losing that loving feeling happens. Marriage takes work. It takes acceptance and compassion and respect. Love doesn't just happen - enfatuation does. We move to love from there because we work at it. This is the work.

Be compassionate. Be respectful. Be open, even if it hurts. He may not understand at the time, but he will one day. That's respectful and honest.

Do the work.

[Doodi]

@AJM

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. You don't always say what I want to hear but I will always listen.

I guess it's not coming across in my posts but I really am not trying to sit back and wait for him to change. I have always said that I have issues that I need to work through, I just need him to see that he needs to work on some things too. (Side note...tonight he did say he thinks he might be Bipolar)

I see my IC on Thursday and my shrink next week. I know that may seem a little bizarre but I had stopped seeing my shrink last year and was just now able to get back with her. In the meantime, I was working on me so I needed something so I had a social worker. I might still see them both, don't know that yet.

I have tried to empathize with him when it comes to how hurt he is but he keeps telling me I don't get it. I don't know what to do. I have sat through many of his breakdowns, sitting quietly while he yelled at me about how horrible I am. I've tried not to belittle his pain but just sit there while he rides it out. I haven't consoled him and I explained that I wasn't doing that because he would take the hugs differently than I meant them--For me I would be trying to help him through it, but to him it would me I loved him the way he wanted me to.

He keeps asking me what he should do to MAKE me fall in love with him again. I've tried to explain to him that I believe the feelings are still there I'm just scared to open up again. That's why I ask for time/patience.

The space I've been asking for is just from the constant need for reassurance that I'm trying. I need to not talk about US all the time. I need to have good times with him and not always be worrying about hidden meanings in everything. I just need to BE. Almost every night has ended with intense emotions and him asking me 'Why can't I just love him?'

Like I said he asked for things and I've given them to him. I've tried to go on walks with him--they end emotionally. Every night I have tried to enjoy a movie or our fave show together. I'm not ignoring him or anything.

I think one of our major problems is I have a lot more practice at hiding my emotions. He believes because I'm not a hysterical mess that I'm happy about things. I've tried to explain to him that I've become an expert and squashing my pain.

I will try to be supportive and respectful. We have communication issues that we need to work through. I need to work on getting my thoughts out without yelling. I've really been messing up there recently.

I know I have major work. I need guidance to know what WE need to work on but right now I have to work on me. I did ask for this change and I have to accept that how it comes to be I can't control (THAT'S HARD!!!) but if I keep working then nothing but good can come of it. I have to hold on to that.

Doodi

[AJM]

Yes, Doodi, you do need to hold on to that and see where it takes you.

It's asking him to change that concerns me. He will change. I get that.

I do totally understand the need for the space. Believe me, I get that. It can be suffocating. Very much so and I hope he does eventually understand that you need that.

I've tried to explain to him that I believe the feelings are still there I'm just scared to open up again. That's why I ask for time/patience.

. Ah. Trust Doodi. Trust. That's a hard thing and by him having a human reaction to perceived rejection, he is making it harder on you both. I doubt he can understand that at this time. Really.

The bipolar comment? Hmm.. What do you think ? Bipolar? Really? Or maybe doesn't handle stress very well?

Knowing you have work to do is important. It's a first step. Knowing it won't be easy for him is hard as well. So now it seems you are trying to get the space you need to work on you without letting go of him. Stressful to say the least. You asking him without giving him reassurances that you are not leaving is not something you've been very good at to date, no?

That would cause stress in any relationship. He has no way to understand because you've given him nothing to understand it with. That may be because you don't understand either. Yet.

Be patient with you both Doodi. It's a lot to ask of either of you. Risky. Dangerous. Painful. But this journey is started and likely needs to be finished now because it will otherwise be finished later. You've put it all on the line. Risked it all. So is he, for better or worse.

Try not to read into his emotions nor try to get him to change. Don't expect him to. In fact, expect him to resist the changes. The same as you resist the changes. He may or may not change with you. Likely he will lag some of those changes, but will change regardless. Really just a question of when, from what I've seen. And how you handle it along the way is important. Your patience to outlast whatever issues are going on will be what defines you. Not the pain. The pain is the catalyst that helps with the clarity. My God does it.

His patience and understanding will come. Perhaps in time to give you the space without him hating you. Or feeling rejected for no discernable reason. But understand that you are wanting to trust him with your emotions, while you want him to trust you with his. That's going to be hard considering the shock he got. It makes it that much harder for you.

How can you learn to trust each other with your feelings again while you make these changes in your lives? Before you have to share the kids and become adversaries? Isn't that the real question?

Risky path. But I don't see how you can leave it at this point without giving up the changes that I sense are needed.

Be at peace that you are making changes that many wish they could. Be at peace that you will find a way to communicate to your H about what you are doing and why and that although you want him to change, it is not just him that needs to change. You are going to have to TRUST that he will make the changes he needs to make because of him. Just the same as you are asking him to TRUST you while you make your changes. That's courage if ever I heard it and I admire you both for it.

[Doodi]

AJM~

He has always said that he is an @sshole and that it's a miracle that anyone puts up with him. His words not mine. For the longest, I have tried to accept him as he is faults and all. And I have asked him to accept me as I was. I guess I still need to think that way.

I'm starting to realize that the unconditional love that I want from him, isn't what I've been offering him. I have placed conditions on my love. I have made excuses for them because he can be mean and hurtful. But saying that I would love him WHEN he controls his anger is a condition.

That said, I guess my first task is to not realize I can only control how I react to his outburst. I have to find my strength to not run and hide but to stand up for myself without attacking.

As for him being Bipolar, that is a very big possibility. That is something that he can work through with his IC. It's something that has been hinted at before with a prior IC.

Since the blow up, I have also started giving back the control. A lot of the control that I had was given voluntarily which fed my need to control everything. I've told him several times tonight to not ask me what he should do. He does that ALOT!!! I don't know if it matters or not but I do know it's something that has bothered me and it's a place to start.

Silver lining...Once you hit rock bottom you have nowhere to go but up.

Doodi

[AJM]

Doodi, I see you are starting to see things differently. I admire that willingness to look at things differently and as they are. That is likely one of the hardest things you'll ever do.

I think you should be aware that it will be a rough road with lots of ups and downs. I encourage you to continue to see it through.

I think you are on the right tract regardless of the outcome: break things into little pieces. As the old saying goes: an elephant is best eaten in pieces.

Best of luck on your journey. I know some great changes are coming. I hope you can hang on for the entire ride. Whatever it may bring.

Life-Be in it!

[john28]

Doodi, I want to chime in here.

You mentioned that he was angry that you weren't working on things and he blew up and told you to leave, etc.

You need to understand that from his perspective, he was right. You weren't fighting to stay in the M the same way he was, or he wanted you to. Anything less that what he perceived as 100% was not trying at all.

Trust me. I said the same thing to my W when she was "trying" by staying in our house 2 months post-bomb. I didn't feel like she was trying. I felt like she was going through the motions. I felt like she was just going to MC so she could say, "I tried everything." Anything less than her saying, "Ok, I get it. I don't really want to leave you. I love you. I want to be with you forever and I'm going to work hard at that" was complete bullsh*t in my mind.

I'm not being harsh - it's the truth. Your husband thinks you are a failure, and he thinks himself a failure for not making this M work. He thinks you're probably gutless and weak for wanting to leave and not 100% work on this.

Again - understand. Anything less that you going into this M 100% is -zero- % in his mind.

If you want this to work, there is only ONE path to take in the beginning:

1. Stop hurting each other.
2. Find a way to trust each other again. Transparency is a good start.


Other than that, he's going to continue to push you to "his" 100% trying, not yours.

[AJM]

I think that may be his initial reaction. But I disagree that will be his forever reaction. One way or another.

I think if she were really trying, at some level he'll sense that vs. thinking it's BS. Right now she is being so real to him it hurts. He can feel that even if he doesn't like it.

Don't try to get in his head any more than to understand you don't know what he's thinking. Just that it is possible he is thinking certain things. Ok?

[Doodi]

Morning guys,

Well I made it through last night. I had to work really hard on not falling into the emotions and 'saying' the right things. I mostly just listened.

He went out for awhile with his friend. I was probably wrong because I suggested it (controlling) because he was just sitting under me and switching between begging and attacking. Of course, his first thing was he was doing it for me. So like I said I guess I was controlling that.

So when he came home he was nothing but chatty. He says that he gets that he done some big dirt in our M. He said that he can see that he raged a lot and that I was his verbal punching bag when things didn't go right. He also realized that the things he was saying we had said MANY times before. I didn't agree or disagree I just listened. After he started to recycle what he was saying I finally said that if those were his feelings then he had a starting point on making himself better. I also told him that I still think that all we can focus on right now is ourselves. I told him that I would continue with my IC and I hoped he would do the same. I said that I really didn't think we should talk about M without the MC because it always got ugly.

So today is a new day. Hopefully, I won't make the old mistakes but I won't look back.

@John~~What you say makes a ton of sense. Of course, in my head I felt like I was giving at least 90% because I was doing everything that he asked. I say 90% because I told him I just couldn't do the physical right now. Right or wrong, I couldn't. But I get it. It was frustrating for me that he didn't see anything I did as a step but we are both going to be frustrated a lot more than this in the future.

@AJM~~Thanks for the support. Keep the 2x4's coming.

Doodi

[AJM]

I think you have it right Doodi. I think the honesty is what is important. You both should be able to be honest with yourselves and each other. Really.

It sounds like you are.

It is a new day. A bright sunshiny day. Feel the sunshine and enjoy the day. It's a gift and won't be here tomorrow