A man in full

[PEI]

The process that Grit posts about is really as he said, about finding a place in oneself where WE choose to walk away/stop standing..whatever you want to call it, from a place of peace. From a TRUE place of understanding.

For me, (yes, everyone knows, I have stopped standing) THAT, what you wrote, was NOT why I was here. It is NOT why I was standing.

I never did this to STOP standing. I did this to be healthy enough to live a healthy happy life. Period.

I fully believe in standing. That is why I continued to post. I also believe that everyone has to make their OWN decision about when enough is enough.

Funy how everyone reads something and sees it differently. When I read that, I read an implied IF/WHEN. IF/WHEN a person chooses to stop standing they do so from a place of peace and understanding not anger etc. Which I think actually goes hand in hand with being healthy enough to live a healthy happy life.

I don't think anyone does this TO stop standing (nor do I think that is what Eric meant but he can speak to that) but inevitably some/many reach that point, and unfortunately many make that decision with anger/hurt/resentment as their motivation.

Maybe it is better termed "respect a persons right to make their own choices",

Agreed. This jumped out at me too. Big difference IMO.

Peace
PEI

[TimeHeals]

if you decided to D and are happier

Eric, I suspect you did not read my thread very carefully if that's what you got out of it.

I live in a no fault state. The first name on the divorce case ahead of the "Vs" is not mine.

Want to re-think you comments now?

[TimeHeals]

Maybe it is better termed "respect a persons right to make their own choices", which I have not really seen you practicing as you post across some of these threads.

I think everybody has the right to make their own choices... including the WASs. They can make choices I would not make. They can go smoke crack, get themselves arrested and generally muck up their lives if they want. They can do what they want if they want deal with the consequences.

I disagree with you conclusion about me, however. And I know me:)

We all have the right to make our own choices, and so do the spouses who have left us. That is my conclusion.

When is "standing" really cover for trying to rescue spouses from themselves and the consequences of their choices?

When is "standing" simply a refusal to look forward?

These are fair questions.

To me, some of what I see on the MLC threads seems to be nearing sophistry in that it uses a lot of the right words and phrases, but at the core of some of it is a time perspective that is mostly looking back, and I just don't think that's the best way to live "my" life, for example.

Suggested reading: "The Time Paradox", by Phillip Zimbardo.

[LanceSijan]

at the core of some of it is a time perspective that is mostly looking back

No we are all looking forward, no looking back. That is out of out control. We can only look forward and control what we can do.

I think you are totally missing something here.

[Truegritter]

When is "standing" really cover for trying to rescue spouses from themselves and the consequences of their choices?

When is "standing" simply a refusal to look forward?

This has to do with individuals choices.

As I have said what we work on here is focusing on the individual their growth, their healing process.

That is essential to the process of saving the M.

That IMO has to start with making a choice to stand for your M.

I have said this already in this thread.

I won't go through it again.

For a time it may appear to someone who has not made that choice or has not gone through this process

That standing may appear to be "rescuing spouses" or "a refusal to look forward"

This is where people get stuck.

Some may even call them doormats.

You do not cease to be a doormat simply by running away from that feeling or perception.

You cease to be a doormat when you find who you are and understand what Love means to you, what a M means to you,

and make choices

That align with your core.

That erradicate self doubt

That are based on courage not fear.

That have honor and not compromise.

The work we do here never accepts a person who is "rescuing a spouse" as success nor not moving forward as success.

We also do not accept an early exit form this process as success.

And that is the difference Time.

You have to experience the pain to give it over to a new understanding.

There is no shortcut to that.

That is the biggest problem I have with the other boards is the pervasive attitude that well

I tried all these tactics and it didn't work so I am just going to run away.

You are moving on ...

But you will meet yourself again down the road.

There is the fork in the road.

Most people choose the easy exit because they can blame their spouse for the demise of their M.

or their spouse is not reciprocating or complying with their desires.

They also confirm those feelings of self doubt that came out of this process.

I do believe in the concept of a paradox here because there comes a day when you realize

That love is not what you get from someone it is what you choose to give.

And those may just be words to you Time. And I understand how they can be just that

But I have come to that knowledge through a trial of everything that I would not allow to break me.

Today I stand for myself. I love for myself. I stand for M because it is what I believe.

I do these things regardless of what my W chooses and my success is defined by me.

And no one is going to tell me when it is time not to do that.

My life is not a democracy. It is not open for debate.

My growth, my choices, my fears are my concern.

My actions stand for who I am.

[ericmsant2]

Cat

I know that you know me better than that. I did not come here to stop standing. I came here to stand and to save my M. What I have realized (and you amongst many help me realize this) is that in order to stand in order to even decide if and when your stand is done (if it ever is). One must heal, one must realize there issues and change them. One must get to a place of peace. A place when you realize that EVERYONE has choices. That everyone is entitled to make there own choice. That we do not have to agree with someone else choice. That we are responsible for our choices and the consequences of them.

A place where you can honestly look at the M and make choice for you from a place of emotional health.

I now understand that the choice to stand is a very personal one. I know understand that none of us can control the future or the actions of another. As I have posted in the past. I actually do not even know if I am still standing. What I know is that I am healing, growing and still love my wife very much. I now know and understand that she will make the choices that she believes she must do for her. Do I agree with them - no. I do love her enough to understand that she must and is entitled to learn from her mistakes (if they even really are mistakes). That she is entitled to be the person that she wants to be and that if I truly love her that I give her this space.

Finally, I reread what I wrote and can see where it may have come across as I am promoting not standing or that I can here not to stand. That is far from the truth; however I can see how you may have interpreted it that way. Funny I learn something from you every time we interact. What I learned today was to re-read what I write before I hit submit.

Sometimes...tone and intent can get lost in a post and clearly that is what happened with my post.

I hope this clarifies my position, which is that by standing we allow our spouse to heal and work thru there issues, while we do the same.

Eric

[CD Bear]

My life is not a democracy. It is not open for debate.

[ericmsant2]

Time

I have not read your thread. I could not find it. I too live in a no fault state. The papers that were served to me also did not list me first. Does any of this change what I feel? What I have choosen to do for me regardless of what my W does?

No.

This process that we go through is tough. Anger and resentment can build up and remain. Who is that good for? Not me.

Look Time - I respect your view point. I do because I choose to respect them. I also choose not to agree with them.

So for arguments sake I will agree to disagree.

Eric

[Lostforwords]

TG-

I read your dialogues...she is still walking on her path. I would suggest you interject your feelings less and listen more.....I could go through line by line, but I won't. Go read it all again...slowly. At times during conversations like the ones you referenced...I go into what I call "therapy mode". I focus on listening while gently guiding...Something like this;

Wife-My life is so lousy!

You could reply-Those are the choices you made!

Or you could reply-Why do you think that?

Realize (as you and Eric are fine examples) that discovering the answers yourself is much more powerful than someone telling you the answers or pointing out the obvious. She stated herself that she is trying to find herself....be her friend on that journey as much as you are capable. Remember that MLC isn't thought of in weeks or months..

TH-

It is easier to pass judgment than act with understanding and respect. The irony being of course that he without sin should cast the first stone and none came forward.

If the way we do things in MLC isn't for....excellent. I wish you the best of luck on your journey. For me...I find my journey now is much easier without the baggage of the past.

[MHL]

Grit,
Our timelines are so similar and our W's seem to be in similar places as are we, so I have a question for you......

There is no doubt in my mind that you have done the work, you have discovered that unconditional love, you have taken your journey and you have grown into a different person. Sure you will continue on that journey and you will continue to grow more but you have traveled far and there will come a point in time where you do change your mind about your stance.

If we have done all the hard work, answered all the hard questions, and our actions are reflecting who we are.....how do we know when it is time to stop standing and "move on"? And I do mean "move on".

I only ask this as I myself am feeling things change within me, I am starting to question how much longer do I stand. If I have truly done the work how would I know that it is time?

What I am getting at here is that the place we arrive at that allows us to stand for our M's in a healthy manner is probably the same place that allows us to leave our M's in an equally healthy manner. Sooooo.....how do I discern the difference or is it even possible?