Not sure where to start, or end. WAW?

[pinhead]

She asked who was coming over on Friday night. I kind of ignored her - she then asked what were we doing at my 'party'. I said it's not a party, it just a hang. She then asked AGAIN who was coming. I didn't answer. She said, "FINE, Nevermind!! You just ignore me"

I got some kahunas up for once and said, "I'm not answering because I feel like you're asking just so you can check up on me and see what I'm doing."

...

Why the hell are you arguing with her? And openly mind-reading?

Next time say something like:

"Joe and Mary are coming over, and maybe some other folks. I'm not sure who all will end up here."

[john28]

Where she would like to see clear direction she only sees problems.

You'd be surprised how many little girls really believe that you just get married and live happily ever after. It takes a long time before you get the life experience to see that no one has the perfect life. Everyone has troubles. Sometimes when you are young, you think that you have troubles because you chose wrong. If only you had chosen differently everything would be perfect. It takes maturity to see that we make our lives, and we can make a good life by acting in good faith. She has a lot to learn about being a good wife. But that's no reason to just throw the marriage away.

Thanks for that Lotus. You're right. You speak to the "little girl" that some women are and what they picture a life to be like. I agree completely.

Problem is, my W and I got married when she was 19. She has never grown up since then.

I've been the steadfast part of our R - she has always been back and forth, sideways, wrongways, rightways, anyway. She has gone from in March of this year saying this is the happiest she's ever been in our M - and we were having sex everyday for 30 days straight, to June saying she wants a D. She is and always has been all over the map.

But at a core, we both still love each other very much. I don't think either of us want this pain. But she is discovering the more she goes down the path of D, the more pain she is having. Maybe not because she is leaving me, but because she is leaving this life we built together, and a son we have together.

That is what is compelling her to love me. The life we have built together, and shared.

She doesn't understand that THAT is what LOVE IS. Shared respect and understanding of a life that takes hard work, but willing to do so.

She's just so young. So naive. I can't do anything about that at all, except let her taste the harsh reality of the life she is moving towards away from me. There is NOTHING in this world I can do to get her to understand that she's in for a rude awakening of scratching the couch cushions for milk money, wondering how she's going to put gas in her car to pickup S4 from school, to fixing a car that has broken and not having the money to do so, to sitting alone in bed every night with her tears from this pain.

I don't want that for her, but I can't change it for her. Maybe she'll wake up suddenly in this next year, or maybe she'll slowly come around to me again and trust me. Maybe she won't - but she'll know what she is in for if she doesn't.

Either way, she's going to become stronger in some way. I can only hope that she'll come back to me when she's strong again.

[Lotus]

It seems all this stuff looks so much better on other people -- marriage, children, jobs, divorce. The reality is not as good as it looks. You can't make her choices for her. But you can be the best choice. A lot of people will say that doesn't work, being the best option. I've seen it work right here on this board.

It takes patience, and commitment, and maturity. It's what my husband did for me, and what I did for him when the shoe was on the other foot. There is an adage, if you love someone, set him/her free. If she loves you, she will come back to you.

There aren't any quick fixes to the situations we find ourselves in, and no guarantees. But you know what you offer -- a home and love and family for your son, something no one else can offer.

Growing up looks so good, but once we enter the adult world, we realize that we had it much better when we were teens and had no responsibility. There is no going back, but there is finding the good in the life that you have. I think both you and your wife can do that. And in just three weeks Retrouvaille will help you.

Have you found a sitter for the weekend?

[CD Bear]

John and Lotus.

I just want to say that that is one of the best exchanges of views I have seen in a long time.

I loved both the advice and response.

You two have it "lasered".

[john28]

It seems all this stuff looks so much better on other people -- marriage, children, jobs, divorce. The reality is not as good as it looks. You can't make her choices for her. But you can be the best choice. A lot of people will say that doesn't work, being the best option. I've seen it work right here on this board.

It takes patience, and commitment, and maturity. It's what my husband did for me, and what I did for him when the shoe was on the other foot. There is an adage, if you love someone, set him/her free. If she loves you, she will come back to you.

There aren't any quick fixes to the situations we find ourselves in, and no guarantees. But you know what you offer -- a home and love and family for your son, something no one else can offer.

Growing up looks so good, but once we enter the adult world, we realize that we had it much better when we were teens and had no responsibility. There is no going back, but there is finding the good in the life that you have. I think both you and your wife can do that. And in just three weeks Retrouvaille will help you.

Have you found a sitter for the weekend?

Lotus, I have to say that this is the most heartfelt advice I've received on this board. I've received lots of recommendations and paths I should take, but this is sincerely the most heartfelt that I've had.

Thank You, this means a lot to me. I love my W, and I want her, but I can't make this decision for her. I can't control the situation anymore. It is not withing my control.

I can only make ME the best choice to make. I am a good person. I am a good man. I believe that. She believes that - and has even said it as recent as 3 days ago. I just have to let her see that again by setting her free to make that same realization all over again. She didn't "pick me" because I was a bad person or because she was just content with me. She picked me because she loved me, and she still loves me regardless of what she says.

Thank You, Lotus.

[Lotus]

Thank you, John. I get criticized a lot around here for being too "soft" on cheaters. I don't believe marriage is a contest that can be won by either spouse. In fact, I think that was one of the things wrong with my marriage for so many years, we were each trying to get the best of the other person. Maybe it came from growing up with siblings. We always fought, so I thought that was how you acted in a family. I literally had to be taught by the folks at Retrouvaille how to be nice and accommodating to my husband. It really did make a difference when I stopped complaining about things I didn't like and started noticing the things I did like.

I want to reassure you that Retrouvaille is not heavy-handed on the religious part. It is all about marriage, and it is open to people of all faiths. They are on a mission to help people save their marriages. They are not there to convert you or drill religious doctrine into you. My husband I were quite comfortable there, and I'm Jewish and he is, well, not too interested in anything religious.

[john28]

Thank again Lotus. I am excited about Retrouvaille coming up in two weeks from now.

W said yesterday, "I hope you know I'm only going to learn how to communicate with you better."

Which means she's not necessarily going to improve our M at this time. She is going to learn how to communicate with me better. I wonder if that will effect how the weekend impresses upon her.

[john28]

Last night I had one of best friends here in area come by for some "beers and buddies" to hang. He showed up around 8, and stayed until 2AM. We had a long talk about all of this.

He has a family of his own, two small kids, and is M as well. He's a highly successful individual as well as has a great family that values him. He has a very smart sense of self, and family. Probably one of the best men that I know.

He explained to me what everyone here has been trying to tell me. I have to let go. I have to detach. I have to let my W go out there all on her own and figure this out. If I keep trying to lead/pressure/give her reasons to come back home to me, she will never see that as her own decision, and eventually we will be in the same predicament that we are in now maybe in a month, year, or 5 years.

If I don't let her go, she can never realize what it truly is that she has. She doesn't know what life is like out there, and how hard it is. She doesn't know that because she's never had to do it - she grew up in middle class, then her next life was with me in a middle class home. She doesn't really understand that it's not like that for the majority of families out there who are grinding it out paycheck to paycheck, live in too small of a home or apartment, are letting bills go so they can buy food, and are only staying together because they can't afford to be apart. She doesn't really KNOW what she has. She only knows what she doesn't want.

But she really, really doesn't understand that those things that she doesn't want pale in comparison to the things she has.

And you know what? She may never know. She may never grow up and take the blinders off to see that. I have to accept that.

At the end of the day, there is a man here that loves her, that provides for her - and sure, he's pretty screwed up and has his problems, but they're not as big as the world's problems out there that she'll have to deal with all on her own.

His message to me was I had to think of this like a business deal. We're both very successful businessmen. His message to me was:

You have to be willing to fail in order to win. You have to put it all out there

I told him how I was afraid to detach and let her go, and how that made me feel like she was slipping away. He understood me - and admitted that it is very very scary. But he added that even if I did not let go and succeeded in having her come back home into this marriage, we'd just be right back here someday because it would never truly be her decision to come back.

We talked about how I was a manipulator and controller. He admitted that he was also this way, but found way to control that part of himself. He said that his adage was, "I will not control this situation or circumstance if you can prove to me you will do it right. And even if you can't do it right, I will let you fail at it until it presents a large problem. Small ones you can fix on your own." That made a lot of sense to me.

Further talking about being manipulative and controlling - he added that by me not letting go, I'm still trying to control and manipulate her. Just like you all said. But he added that I could still TAKE BACK THE POWER of this M and R if I let go. When I let go, she has no more power over me. She can't hold the M over my head.

In fact, by me letting go and pulling back, it allows her to say, "Wow, my H isn't trying to control me anymore. He hasn't tried to manipulate me into doing anything. He is respecting me and valuing my decision. I didn't like it when he controlled me. Maybe he HAS changed."

So, in an essence, I'm doing two things:
1. I'm not controlling her anymore. She is free. Free to come back if she so chooses. The reasons she left are no longer present. I'm not that man anymore.
2. I'm indirectly manipulating the situation, but not directly. I'm not doing anything to influence her decision. I'm just having her look inward.


But, all-in-all it's hard to do because I still have hope for my marriage. The expectation just can not be there anymore. Let's hope I can follow my own advice, and yours.

[Lotus]

That will do just fine. That is what the weekend is about. But you will be surprised what headway is made when the communication works. And it takes quite a bit of practice to get the communication right.

Friday night everyone comes in nervous and stiff. Saturday at noon, they are still wary of each other. By Saturday dinner, the mood is lifted significantly, and couples are starting to walk with arms around each other. Sunday at breakfast, many couples were talking about how they finagled sex in the single beds. By Sunday at noon, most people in the room are looking happy and smiling at each other. (That's most people, not all.)

I am very bad at predicting who will do well and who won't. If your wife does not cooperate and do the exercises as instructed, you should go talk to one of the team couples. They will talk to you one on one and explain things. It's important to get help if she doesn't cooperate, because the program can be quite painful if one spouse chooses to continue fight instead of working on communication according to the rules.

[Doodi]

If I don't let her go, she can never realize what it truly is that she has. She doesn't know what life is like out there, and how hard it is. She doesn't know that because she's never had to do it - she grew up in middle class, then her next life was with me in a middle class home. She doesn't really understand that it's not like that for the majority of families out there who are grinding it out paycheck to paycheck, live in too small of a home or apartment, are letting bills go so they can buy food, and are only staying together because they can't afford to be apart. She doesn't really KNOW what she has. She only knows what she doesn't want.

But she really, really doesn't understand that those things that she doesn't want pale in comparison to the things she has.

I've read through this trying to get an idea about 'the other side' and it's here that I find words to express my fears. I get that life will be a lot harder than I've ever experienced and I hope that I can handle it but what if I can't.

I'm not trying to bogart your conversation but I just wanted to say thanks for giving me words I couldn't find.