Bustorama-Thread 1

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I believe she wanted/wants out cause I had 2 EA's on her and totally ignored her and her needs for 3 years cause I got hooked on a computer game. As I see it, the baking stuff was a very small, but symbolic aspect of that (me being selfish, self-absorbed and not attentive/responsive/tuned into her and what SHE wanted). I don't see it as being about the baking, but what my reaction to the baking and desserts symbolized to her.

The Betty Crocker Theory.
Let's have some cake? As red roses signify love and passion and white roses, loyalty, purity, and a love stronger than death, The Art of Baking symbolizes something much greater for your relationship. Mixing ingredients of desperation and spreading false hope while indulging your spouse indicates you are out of touch with reality.

Who can resist a piece of Chocolate Cake with sprinkled Selfish Behavior and Co-Dependence? Is it not the most sweetest, indulgent treat someone could offer? "Me, Me, Me, I want you to want me. I want you to want me or I am depressed." It is a sacrifice to lose one's self worth and dignity in an attempt to control and manipulate another for one's own selfish desires. It is indulgent yet it is not festive or mysterious.

As we criticize those who want to have their cake and eat it too, we need to consider the intentions of the 'Betty Crocker Wannabe.' To bake and serve the side dish is to be the side dish. Consider before you a 24oz Prime Rib. It is the main dish which should be the challenge to complete. Bread, and pastries and brownies are but a side dish and a desert to relish afterwards. Notice the words 'challenge' and 'complete.' Since the beginning of time it has been "Survival of the fittest." It drives our need to succeed. Be it capturing a wholly mammoth, or harvesting a field of corn or procuring a healthy, successful mate. We succeed or we perish. There is no drive to be second best. Neither is there a second choice when you are a tree. You take in the sun, and respirate and reach for the sky. Likewise, you should not settle for second option in a relationship. You need to continually challenge your mate instead of buttering them up with pastries.

Settling for second option in a relationship poses some questions. 'What are they cooking up?' Can they know themselves if they cannot understand me? Can they truly love them self if they do not know how to love me?

There is a reason Tyson did as many sit-ups as he did. He could stomach anything thrown his way. He had no time for cupcakes.

Who wrote that, McQ?

[bustorama]

The Betty Crocker Theory.
Let's have some cake? As red roses signify love and passion and white roses, loyalty, purity, and a love stronger than death, The Art of Baking symbolizes something much greater for your relationship. Mixing ingredients of desperation and spreading false hope while indulging your spouse indicates you are out of touch with reality.

Who can resist a piece of Chocolate Cake with sprinkled Selfish Behavior and Co-Dependence? Is it not the most sweetest, indulgent treat someone could offer? "Me, Me, Me, I want you to want me. I want you to want me or I am depressed." It is a sacrifice to lose one's self worth and dignity in an attempt to control and manipulate another for one's own selfish desires. It is indulgent yet it is not festive or mysterious.

As we criticize those who want to have their cake and eat it too, we need to consider the intentions of the 'Betty Crocker Wannabe.' To bake and serve the side dish is to be the side dish. Consider before you a 24oz Prime Rib. It is the main dish which should be the challenge to complete. Bread, and pastries and brownies are but a side dish and a desert to relish afterwards. Notice the words 'challenge' and 'complete.' Since the beginning of time it has been "Survival of the fittest." It drives our need to succeed. Be it capturing a wholly mammoth, or harvesting a field of corn or procuring a healthy, successful mate. We succeed or we perish. There is no drive to be second best. Neither is there a second choice when you are a tree. You take in the sun, and respirate and reach for the sky. Likewise, you should not settle for second option in a relationship. You need to continually challenge your mate instead of buttering them up with pastries.

Settling for second option in a relationship poses some questions. 'What are they cooking up?' Can they know themselves if they cannot understand me? Can they truly love them self if they do not know how to love me?

There is a reason Tyson did as many sit-ups as he did. He could stomach anything thrown his way. He had no time for cupcakes.

Thanks for stopping by McQ. I've read the above piece several times and there are parts of it I get. One thing I take away is why should *I* desperately settle for crumbs of love (and in return offer banquets) when that would never sate me and would leave her fat and lazy (leaving BOTH of us in unhealthy, untenable places). They also denigrate me in that I settle for something less than I am worth.

Another point I take is that by my offering the banquets (of massages, etc), you suggest I am trying to control her feelings and not let her make her own journey which could lead to a truer destination. That I am not being loving and fair to her to let her make her own emotional choices.

Are these (some of) your points? Want to make sure I'm reading right before responding.

Also, it may not appear like it, but I am doing lots of GAL stuff (Tyson's situps?) when I'm not over at her place, I just don't post about it much.

She's called me several times today. Earlier called me randomly to tell me about random funny thing that happened at WalMart. On her way to Walmart, she asked me if there was anything I wanted her to pick up for me (I guess that is nice). She JUST called me again now asking me to come over again tonight, that she was at her wits ended and needed my help cause she is in pain. I want to help her because I do believe she is in pain and needs help with physical stuff, but I don't want this co-dependence cycle you and others have alluded to. Thoughts? I found out her next follow-up doctor's appt. is Sept. 3 and hope to get more info there on if this pain and level of assistance is reasonable.

[bustorama]

OK, back from W's apt. I didn't ask her for an a$$ massage since she called me over due to her pain (somehow would seem insensitive, hehe). After her mandatory exhibition of T to me and showing me every nook and cranny of her areolas...I didn't boil any parsley tea or foot massage or even back massage her this time. I made dinner for the kids and myself (she had eaten a late lunch), bathed the kids, played Caribou with the kids, read the kids bedtime stories and tucked them in. I covered W with a blanket and she fell asleep on the couch and slept about half the time (really pooped).

While she was awake, we chatted about misc stuff. She said, hey tomorrow there is this kids' band (that our kids like) playing at something at 6 pm. I said that sounds like fun to me, would you like to come? She said yeah definitely if she can get off work in time (so her sort of initiating more time together [albeit family time together]).

When I left, I said ok I gotta get to the gym, I'll see you later W and headed for door. She said bye in a sweet voice from couch and when I got to door and turned around to wave, she had chased me to door and she asked me if she could have a hug. I said, sure and we hugged. When she pulled back she said, "Are you my best friend?", and I said, "right now." Then I said come here I'm gonna hug you again, and she said ok but be careful with the boobs they still hurt. And I said, "I like the boobs."

With the progression of trust/affection back towards love from a hurt place, doesn't it go friend --> best friend --> love attraction (isn't that how the Harley / Marriage Builders / Love Bucket idea works?). I mean I don't want to be pigeonholed into a "friend" category, but my understanding of the love bucket idea is you proceed through a friend/best friend category on the way back to attraction/love affection? Or am I hitting the pipe too much?

Off to gym...

[robx]

since no one else said it,
you have been pigeonholed into the gay friend category,
and yes you are hitting the pipe too much.

FWIW I think that harley/marriage builders/love bucket theory has a ton of holes.

From bum rubs to showing her boobage,
she can be completely free to show you every nook & cranny on her body because she doesn't have to worry about it turning sexual - you have become her new gay friend and trust me, I don't think this path leads you to her being attracted to you again and eventual marital bliss.

But then again, that's just my opinion.

[bustorama]

Hehe, Rob, I knew I could count on you for some input.

Few comments in response:

1) What about the Harley/Marriage Builders/Love Bucket theory do you not buy? Some of the stuff in DR follows that progression. In DR (MWD), there is a letter from a "successful" DB'er that says, "No gifts, I love yous, special occasions or anything other than being a [bold] very helpful father and kind friend [/bold]. There's also plenty of stuff in DR where they present cases of progress transitioning gradually from verbal warmth, to pats, to hugs and eventually to kissing and ML.

2) I'm not sure if you remember the details of my initial sitch, but my W has a HUGE trust issue with me now from my having the 2 concurrent EA's on her in 2008 and subsequently hiding.being deceptive about continued game play (so she was wondering if I was continuing to have other EA's). We had in-house separation from like Aug.09 where she wouldn't let me touch her at all and then moved out late May. Her distrust/anger of me was so much that she was literally having panic attacks while in the house, horrible insomnia, heavily medicated, and in June after she moved out stated 2 separate times that she was terrified I was going to kill her (she got full blown paranoia). So, I take her calling me her best friend at the end of August as "trust" progress of some sort. We can debate about whether continuing the same path will get to marital bliss or whether something needs to change in our relationship to try to re-sexualize things, but given where things were 2.5 months ago, I don't see it as all bad.

3) Because of her trust issues from the EA and my post-affair behavior, she has even declared things post-separation like, "I will never get married again," "I am broken, no man can be trusted," "I can't give you what you want yet, I need more time," "I can only be friends with you RIGHT NOW,"I'm not ready for that YET," "I can't be sexual with you right now," "I am terrified of opening myself up to you again," "I feel myself drawn to you, but I am so scared" (this most recently) In that last convo, she called me baby and said she was confused and wondered if maybe we could be best friends because she was so scared and I told her I understood why she felt that way, but that wasn't something I was interested in the long term. I really think she is scared $hitless about being vulnerable to me (or anyone) in a sexual relationship right now. I keep hoping she will decide she wants to do MC oriented towards intimacy after infidelity, but she said a couple of weeks ago she is not "ready for that."

5) When the ass rubbing or T shows happen I always say something to sexualize it to make it clear that I am not just her gay friend. When I was staying over there I also paraded around with my shirt off and wearing boxers that I didnt realize my package was hanging out of and she said she felt violated that I was sitting next to her with my stuff hanging out (she wouldn't feel violated by a gay friend, right?). And when she walked in on me while I was showering, she was nervously checking me out then left. In other words, I think there is something sexual still there, but she is scared or turned off still cause of the trust issues.

Welcome your thoughts and input about the TRUST bugaboo and how attraction can break through that.

Lemme go hit on my pipe a bit more

[Puppy Dog Tails]

When I was staying over there I also paraded around with my shirt off and wearing boxers that I didnt realize my package was hanging out of and she said she felt violated that I was sitting next to her with my stuff hanging out (she wouldn't feel violated by a gay friend, right?). And when she walked in on me while I was showering, she was nervously checking me out then left. In other words, I think there is something sexual still there, but she is scared or turned off still cause of the trust issues.

Busto,

I'm sorry, but I think your wife has some serious sexual issues and hangups. Was she ever abused when she was younger or anything like that? Her behavior is just WIERD, and I would caution you when she's making statements like what I've bolded above. It is VERY common for a wayward wife to use these kinds of accusations legally against you -- I see it on here all the time.

And Robx, I'd also be curious to know what, specifically, you don't like about Harley's approach.

Puppy

[bustorama]

Puppy,

You're telling me! I do think that early abuse might be part of what is at play here. Her very first boyfriend (young high school) was physically abusive to her and her mom hit her as well when she was younger. There is no sexual abuse that I am aware of, but things I have read suggest that the forms of abuse (from mom and from first boyfriend) that she has experienced could create severe trust issues and that I may have retriggered those when I had the EA's and their aftermath on her. I wonder if that's where her ideas that "I was going to kill her" came from (physical fear based on her early experiences?). She said to me post-separation that if there was ANYONE in the world she thought she could trust and that wouldn't hurt her it was me and if she got hurt even by me who wouldn't hurt her. I am sure we need MC if we are ever to get past this issue.

Yeah, I will keep careful on the legal front. When she used the word "violated" under those circumstances, it threw me for a loop also.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Be especially careful IN WRITING, but even on the phone, she could record you. As soon as she throws out an "I don't feel safe" line to you, and you let it go unrefuted or even just some general "validation" response ("I understand that you feel that way,") you can be screwed, legally. Like I said, I've seen it happen.

The best defense against this is to DOCUMENT the things that she has done -- or will do -- that would indicate that she DOES feel safe with you.

Puppy

[bustorama]

So W called me in the AM at work today while I was in meeting. Called her 40 min later. I guess she just called to talk, she was at Starbucks with our youngest D hanging out (her daycare provider is on vacation this week so we are doing half days with her). W said something about being hungry. I asked her if she wanted to grab some lunch. She said, yeah but she needed to call her cousin to cancel cause she had just called her cousin to see if her cousin wanted to have lunch, W said she was going to ask me but figured I was busy (since I hadn't called her back?). She calls cousin and calls me back and says she is in the mood for sushi and suggests some places near where we live that we've been too. I say let's try somewhere fun and new instead. She agrees and suggests a place her friend just told her about and we meet there with our D2.

Nice lunch, I did lot of the looking deep into eyes eye contact. Said her hair looked beautiful in the sun and her eyes looked gorgeous with the way she did her eyeliner. She's still seems uncomfortable with me saying stuff like that and quietly said 'stop it' though I think she still likes the compliment in some way (this is one of those hang ups I think of her having the trust wall up). I stopped it, but I still feel I need to say stuff like this from time to time to make sure she knows I find her sexually attractive and am not gay best friend. Should I stop/continue this sort of stuff??

We had a nice lunch and our D2 actually behaved well so we could talk. She showed me some more funny stuff from her facebook that we cracked up about. At the end, she said she was happy we tried somewhere new and even D2 had joined us and asked me if I liked it and I said yeah it was a great suggestion of a place she made and thanked her. On way out, she said something about she needed to give her baby some hugs and kisses since she was going to work, and I said what about D2? She said 'stop it' again and gave some hugs and a kiss to our little one then gave me a hug and left for work.

I told her at lunch I was taking the girls tonight to the concert thing we had talked about the day before and invited her to come as well that it would be fun if she could make it. She said she definitely would try, that she really wanted to.

So, there we are. There's this growing warmth between us, but RobX suggests it is gay best friend but I am hopeful it is her heart beginning to soften a little from the hurt and mistrust. How to tell?

[Coach]

How to tell?

Get her to pursue you. You are doing all the pursuing.

On way out, she said something about she needed to give her baby some hugs and kisses since she was going to work, and I said what about D2? She said 'stop it' again and gave some hugs and a kiss to our little one then gave me a hug and left for work.

You need to be the first one to leave. She needs to see that you have other things to attend to.

Have plans you can't break next time she calls and wants you to come over. Seems to me she only "hurts" is when she is lonely and needs her @$$ rubbed.

Are you getting what you want?