Not sure where to start, or end. WAW?

[john28]

I hope that she will still go to Retrouvaille with you. Your willingness to look within and make changes would help you there. If both people can do that, it is a win/win situation.

In MC today she said, "And now John wants me to go to this crazy christian catholic marriage retreat..." and the MC just nodded her head and knew exactly what she was talking about but didn't say anything.

Yeah, it's a 50/50 shot that she'll still go. She brought it up tonight at dinner. She said that me signing us up and not telling her until after I did so and paying for it upset her. I told her I understood (validation) and that I was trying to be a leader in our R, and I see that instead of being a leader, I'm just being pushy.

She said she let it go, it's not a big deal anymore. She did not say that she wouldn't go... so I guess it's still on until I hear otherwise. She knows that I've already paid for it, and that might be the only reason she goes. That - and she has a family member who just had a baby in the same city that she would like to go see...

[john28]

One of the hardest things to do right now that I'm sure all of you have struggled with - I can see her online in FB chat and email chat and she's been online for hours. This is where the EA started in the first place. All I can think of is that she's talking to some OM.

I just want to msg her, or call her to distract her from a possible EA - but I know it won't make a difference.

It's just futile, especially since she is out of the house. I can't control this situation anymore at all... and that's exactly what I'm still trying to do.

I just need to let go................................

[Piano]

John, found that post about loving with 'strings attached' really interesting, but I think you are a little too hard on yourself. It takes two to tango, John, and your W has had one foot in-one foot out for a while it seems.
I still can't believe she is only 24, and you 28. So young!
Can you flick a switch on your computer so you don't see her online & torture yourself?
Remember, letting go is your best hope of saving this marriage. Put all your effort into that.

[Lotus]

And John, if you've been married any length of time, she's figured out ways to manipulate you, too. That's part of marriage. I'm not saying that it is good. I'm just saying, like Piano, you are being hard on yourself. You give and you get. Just mention that she probably manipulates you too, and see if a little smile doesn't cross her face.

[Coach]

Yeah John don't mess wit her stuff, you do respect her right? Can't you see this stuff coming by now? You need to mess with her stuff - her phone and computer. If you really love your son, her and yourself you would find out what is going on. What does she do all day while you are at work? Anymore late night trips to the store? Your fear of your wife is killing your marriage.

Go ahead and "respect" her wishes, she has no problem breaking her vows, having a abortion against your wishes and jerking you around. Give her all the respect you think she deserves. She can't respect you because she knows you can't stand up to her. She is stronger than you. It kills all attraction.

McQ said it too, break her boundaries (mess with her stuff) they aren't real or valid at this point. She is treating you like you let her. Retro can teach you to communicate better it can't give you a backbone.

I'm still amazed at how little anger or outrage you show at her behavior over the years. Then you bow down to her littlest wishes. It probably perplexes your wife as well.

[pinhead]

I'm still amazed at how little anger or outrage you show at her behavior over the years. Then you bow down to her littlest wishes. It probably perplexes your wife as well.

[PMA_Baby!]

Yeah John don't mess wit her stuff, you do respect her right? Can't you see this stuff coming by now? You need to mess with her stuff - her phone and computer. If you really love your son, her and yourself you would find out what is going on. What does she do all day while you are at work? Anymore late night trips to the store? Your fear of your wife is killing your marriage.

Go ahead and "respect" her wishes, she has no problem breaking her vows, having a abortion against your wishes and jerking you around. Give her all the respect you think she deserves. She can't respect you because she knows you can't stand up to her. She is stronger than you. It kills all attraction.

McQ said it too, break her boundaries (mess with her stuff) they aren't real or valid at this point. She is treating you like you let her. Retro can teach you to communicate better it can't give you a backbone.

I'm still amazed at how little anger or outrage you show at her behavior over the years. Then you bow down to her littlest wishes. It probably perplexes your wife as well.

Nailed it again Coach!!

John - Haven't you been reading and reflecting on all your posts?

I have been saying this from day 1. It's all about RESPECT and CONTROL. Especially for us "nice guys" and passive agressive guys that are nice at first then are resentful once taken advantage of. Dont you see that it's our fault for "ENABLING" this behavior in the first place.

It's time to step up and FIGHT for your family. Fight for your RESPECT with STRENGTH and HONOR. Time to be Popeye and eat your spinach. Your mentality should be "I've had all I's can stands and I's cant stand no mor..." Then set your RESPECT BOUNDARIES and stick to them. "Listen woman you've disrespected ME and OUR FAMILY with your IMMORAL GAMES long enough... prepare to defend yourself...."

Time to silence the "little boy" is right. Let go of her skirt and kick some a$$

Hold the line.

PMA

[john28]

I'm still amazed at how little anger or outrage you show at her behavior over the years. Then you bow down to her littlest wishes. It probably perplexes your wife as well.

Believe me when I say that I am angry. I am very angry that I was treated this way by her. Furious.

But by that same token, I did the same to her. I controlled her, I manipulated her, I wasn't there for her, I was selfish, etc. I caused the same pain - except I didn't do it with some OW.

By nature, I want us to stop hurting each other. That's the first step. Anything beyond that is where a plan must formulate to fight for my family.

I can fight for my family with strength and honor without being nasty or disrespectful. I can also fight for my family without allowing her to be nasty or disrespectful.

That's what it's going to take to save this M. Honor, integrity, Love.

Believe me - I'm outraged. But I have to accept what has happened, just as I have to accept that my W has moved out and from now on I might possibly have less time with my S4 which I desire most in this world.

[Coach]

I'm still amazed at how little anger or outrage you show at her behavior over the years. Then you bow down to her littlest wishes. It probably perplexes your wife as well.

Believe me when I say that I am angry. I am very angry that I was treated this way by her. Furious.

But by that same token, I did the same to her. I controlled her, I manipulated her, I wasn't there for her, I was selfish, etc. I caused the same pain - except I didn't do it with some OW.

By nature, I want us to stop hurting each other. That's the first step. Anything beyond that is where a plan must formulate to fight for my family.

I can fight for my family with strength and honor without being nasty or disrespectful. I can also fight for my family without allowing her to be nasty or disrespectful.

That's what it's going to take to save this M. Honor, integrity, Love.

Believe me - I'm outraged. But I have to accept what has happened, just as I have to accept that my W has moved out and from now on I might possibly have less time with my S4 which I desire most in this world.

since you don't follow anyone's advice here. What's your plan?

[john28]

I'm still amazed at how little anger or outrage you show at her behavior over the years. Then you bow down to her littlest wishes. It probably perplexes your wife as well.

Believe me when I say that I am angry. I am very angry that I was treated this way by her. Furious.

But by that same token, I did the same to her. I controlled her, I manipulated her, I wasn't there for her, I was selfish, etc. I caused the same pain - except I didn't do it with some OW.

By nature, I want us to stop hurting each other. That's the first step. Anything beyond that is where a plan must formulate to fight for my family.

I can fight for my family with strength and honor without being nasty or disrespectful. I can also fight for my family without allowing her to be nasty or disrespectful.

That's what it's going to take to save this M. Honor, integrity, Love.

Believe me - I'm outraged. But I have to accept what has happened, just as I have to accept that my W has moved out and from now on I might possibly have less time with my S4 which I desire most in this world.

since you don't follow anyone's advice here. What's your plan?

Good point.

Begin by accepting where I'm at. I can't change how I got here. I'm just here. I do know how I got here though. I know the behaviors that I can control that got me here. Then, look at what kind of man I want to be. Strive and work towards that man by GAL, looking within, working on my spirituality and physical/mental health. I'm not in a good place right now, nor am I the man I want to be.

I'll say that again - I'M not the man I WANT to be. I'm doing this for me now... Not so I can be the man I want to be FOR HER and keep her.

After I feel I have done that with reasonable success and I'm on the right path to doing so, and only concern contact with W on kid issues, then I can begin by GAL and DB at the same time.

Until then, I'm just that "little boy" that is whining and crying. Unattractive. Not someone W wants to be with.

If I don't change that first, the rest is futile.

So, I only have two steps in place for my plan, but that's a start. During that I will not offer support of the decision for my W to get a D, or support her in any way unless it is monetarily. No emotional support - she has to live with this decision. I have to let her have this "crucible". I will however stop fighting this D by not standing in the way of it.

If I stand in the way of D (i've got a year until it can be done) it will only cause her to push harder for it, and in turn push her further away from me.

And if I work towards a D with her amicably, she'll see I'm not fighting and controlling her anymore.

I made mistakes with DB before. I have to learn from them. When she was in the house living here all I did was think about "how can I keep her here?" and that ultimately pushed her into leaving by me being demanding, whiny, blaming, manipulative and controlling. Maybe if I had detached earlier and done the same actions, they would have looked to be coming from a place of love for my family, and not fear. Instead, I chose fear to govern my actions.

This time, I do not choose fear to govern my actions. That's an easy thing to say, but a hard thing to do.

I have to GAL and 180 again. I'm starting over this time. I know the mistakes I made before and if I continue to make them I'll have no chance.

I will not however act disrespectful to my W. That does not mean I can not be detached, it means that I will not do anything to purposefully hurt her and in turn manipulate the situation. I will not however feel bad if my actions which were respectful bring her pain, nor will I be manipulated to feel my respectful actions are wrong. That is her own conscious telling her that she is wrong.

I have been listening to all of you. I'm just not very good at it.