Not sure where to start, or end. WAW?

[Lotus]

Re: hugs, kisses, sex while separated. I am totally in support of keeping the sexual connection going. My belief is that sex is the glue that holds a marriage together. Funny how often a meeting of the bodies can lead to a meeting of the minds. In my case, I waged the battle of the bedroom for my husband and beat out the other contender. Others say they feel used, that it is better to make the spouse miss the niceties of the relationship.

However, in a relationship where the other partner has felt alone and neglected, further neglect is not only not beneficial, it is a detriment. It is not that hard for an attractive woman to find someone who will hold her, kiss her and make her feel good. If her husband won't do it, there are usually willing men at the nearest bar.

It's a little late to mention it, but you want to avoid making your confidante someone who will be talking to her confidante. Despite the fact that she was telling the wife her side of the story, she will resent you telling the husband your side. Next time, try to find someone else for your support system.

Also, I think it is a bad idea to hold the abortion over her. There are a lot of emotional changes that a woman goes through when a pregnancy starts and when it ends. She has been going through that, and likely it is part of her emotional instability and turmoil. She did what she thought was the best choice at the time. It would have been nice if she had involved you more in the decision, but as you acknowledge, you may not have been the father of the fetus. You have an unhappy wife and a child to deal with. Whatever her reasons were, she was not willing to bring another child into the marriage under the current conditions. The fact that she is that unhappy should be your focus, not the action which is a symptom of that underlying problem.

And, as you so eloquently said in your talk, it is the future that matters, you two should not beat each other up with the past. You don't want to be criticized for being an absent parent, and she doesn't want to be criticized for having had an abortion. No one can change the past. There comes a time when you have to accept what happened and move on. Or get divorced, because if you cannot accept the past, there is no good future.

[john28]

I don't know what to do

because

"Should I reciprocate affection if she initiates?"

It's how she is keepin you under wraps. You are dying for us tell you to go for it. it would be fine if you knew how to play it. you aren't there.

If you were thinking you might have some ideas on what would work.

Three weeks is a long time. Be wise. What's important is now.

So what I'm hearing is that I can reciprocate, but since I'm not fully detached, it's not good for me to do so right now. She doesn't feel she has lost me, so by me reciprocating affection, it just tells her that I'm not detached and she still has me under her thumb.

You're also saying that if I was fully detached, reciprocating affection to her that she initiates would not be a bad thing because she would know that she has lost me, and her mentality would be that of pursuing, rather than maintaining.

Correct?

[PMA_Baby!]

Again Seriously!?! Am I reading the same story?

She has cheated on him several times and is most likely still cheating on him and you are suggesting he competes for her affection.

One of the main principles of DB is to STOP doing what doesnt work. Why continue playing this game? Same thinking?? Same results??? = Insanity!! which is pretty much what is happening.

Why the H3ll!! would he want to compete with OM's affection? Perfect recipe for sacrificing your identity and destroying any left over self-respect or ego.

What he needs to do is send her a$$ packing until she grows up, but that will never happen because they are both too co-dependent on eachother for attention and other crap.

I have told you this how many times?? YOU are the only one that can CHOOSE to BREAK this CYCLE.

Why would you want to be with someone that doesnt want to be with you. Period. YOU can never CONVINCE anyone to be YOU through words has to be through ACTIONS. PERIOD.

Once again. What happened to the "Hold on to your NUTS" attitude that you had found. Fighting for scraps is definitely not in that book.

Good Luck. PMA

[john28]

Thanks for the 2x4 PMA, much needed.

I'm afraid that it will turn into the same situation that Pinhead's W went through. When he stopped all loving attention she shut him down because of the hurt that he caused in the past.

My W's main issue was - She was lonely. She's said that in every MC session we've had to every single person she knows. I wasn't around. I wasn't a good father. I wasn't a helpful husband.

It feels like doing that same exact thing now would not be a 180.

I have been doing what doesn't work, and I see where's it gotten me. I guess I just need to trust this community that dropping all affection is the way to go.

[Coach]

So what I'm hearing is that I can reciprocate, but since I'm not fully detached, it's not good for me to do so right now. She doesn't feel she has lost me, so by me reciprocating affection, it just tells her that I'm not detached and she still has me under her thumb.

You're also saying that if I was fully detached, reciprocating affection to her that she initiates would not be a bad thing because she would know that she has lost me, and her mentality would be that of pursuing, rather than maintaining.

Correct?

You are getting it.

"I have some things I need to decide and I don't want to give you the wrong idea. Plus, how you have been acting lately is just not attractive."

If you can't say that with all seriousness then don't try to fake a statement like that.

[Steve McQueen]

I'm bumping again to get a plural answer to "Should I reciprocate affection if she initiates?"

I don't know what to do, or what are the pros/cons of that in my situation that you all have followed.

Very simple.

If you are to have any chance to savage this marriage you need to stop YOUR needy behaviors as soon as possible. Acting desperate or needy is probably the MOST common mistake guys make in these situations. It is the ultimate attraction killer.

NEXT. Take 30, 45 - 60 days of NO CONTACT. You have been dumped. It would be ridiculous to think your wife doesn't think you love her. She knows that. That is not the reason she left you. She dates other men and you still tell her you love her. Talk is cheap. You need to come up with a plan. You have no plan. Take a month or two decide if this is someone you really want to be involved with. Be able to answer those questions for yourself before you are in the situations where they may be asked.

3. Start dating other people.

And quit the arguments. If you want to have a postive relationship with someone dump the negativity. Spoons, cookware, pecks on the cheeks are not valid reasons to fight. As you go through this list you should notice that all 4 of these simple suggestions are related to eachother. If you don't know what to do the first place you need to start to answer that question is to Know Yourself. The rest begins to fall into place after that.

[john28]

I think I finally realized something true tonight that I've known but haven't accepted.

I'm not really detached, or even close. I'm still trying to control this situation.

Why? Because last night when I we talked about mediation, I just wanted her to agree to Retrouvialle before I would agree to mediation in hopes that I could delay mediation long enough to go to Retrouvaille with her.

I was trying to delay giving her what she wanted, so I could get what I wanted. I.e. - control the situation, again.

My W keeps telling me that I'm controlling and manipulative. I have somewhat agreed with her, but until I reflected tonight, I didn't really realize how bad it was. It is bad. I'm trying to hold on to the idea of fixing this so badly that I'm doing things that just push her away.

So, I called her. And I said:

"I wanted to call and apologize to you about tonight. You told me that I was still being controlling and manipulative. I want to let you know that I see that yesterday when I was trying to delay mediation and not give you what you want, it was just a way of me controlling you and trying to get what I wanted before giving you what you asked for. That was wrong of me. You were right about me still being controlling. I see that if I would have just let you have what you wanted and set you free, only then could you come back to me if you wanted to. I am sorry for not understanding that yesterday. I know that behavior just pushes you away."

She replied to me with, "Thanks, but I don't want you to say something just because it's what you think I want to hear."

I said, "It's not. It's what I feel. That's why I called you, not to argue about this, but just to tell you that you were right. That's it."

She says, "You realizing this just kind of adds insult to injury."

I validated, told her I could see that point completely. I replied with, "I know it does, but I wanted you to know that how you felt was right. I see that now."

She said she appreciated the call, that it meant something to her, but she then said, "You can't just say you're going to change this and not do it, you've said that before."

I told her, "I didn't say I was going to change that. I've said that before, you're right. But saying it means nothing. I just have to do it."

She warmed up. She said she really appreciated the apology that it really meant something to her. That she was happy I told her that.... that it made her feel better even though she was still angry.

[TimeHeals]

I'm doing things that just push her away.

Yep, you are holding on which is like saying you don't care how she feels.

So, I called her. And I said:

Uhh oh.

"I wanted to call and apologize to you about tonight. You told me that I was still being controlling and manipulative. I want to let you know that I see that yesterday when I was trying to delay mediation and not give you what you want, it was just a way of me controlling you and trying to get what I wanted before giving you what you asked for. That was wrong of me. You were right about me still being controlling. I see that if I would have just let you have what you wanted and set you free, only then could you come back to me if you wanted to. I am sorry for not understanding that yesterday. I know that behavior just pushes you away."

Stop this. Just LET HER GO.

Say this to yourself until you understand it:

"I get it. She doesn't love me the way a wife should love a husband, and that is not what I really want. I want a wife who actually loves me.".

That is your new mantra.

[john28]

We have a MC session today. I fully expect to get the 3rd degree again about my control issues.

W is scheduling mediation.

Retrouvialle people called me last night. I told them I would have W call them back. Told W they called, we talked about it. She's not too happy to go at all, doesn't really want to go at all, but says that she will because she "loves and respects me".

I feel like if we can just go, it might do some good. Heck, it couldn't do any harm.

So, T-4 hours and counting to MC.

[TimeHeals]

Hi John,

Trying to help you see a pattern here:

W registers kids for school.
W wants to know if I took dog to vet.
W schedules mediation.

John, she has thought this stuff over, and is acting. She isn't spending time waiting for you to act except a little with the dog, and even then she's prodding you along.