Relocated the family and he dropped the bomb

[steady]

One thing I need to change is not involving so many other people. When I would go to him to talk about the R and he stonewalled me, I would talk to friends or family. That has not helped, only further eroded the sacred bond between us. I need to keep things that are between us, between us.

I agree to a point with keeping things between you and H between you two. But those are more intimate details between you. If you go to your friends and family looking for help, then there's nothing wrong with that. That's why we have a support group.

Now for your part -

When he stonewalled you what did you do? I will imagine for a moment that you just walked away in frustration, turning to your friends and family to talk about him stone walling you.

What could you do different in any R where your partner is stonewalling you? (yes, I'm looking for your answer. I have my own but it won't help you)

We lost the connection when he graduated college and I had one semester left there and then I moved back to my home state (1/2 hr away) and he went to med school. We just stopped seeing each other. I had my own apartment and job and kept myself busy making new friends because he was so busy and I only saw him usually a few hours on Saturdays.

Again, what did you do when you realized this was happening? How did you feel? Did you approach him and talk about it? If you did, did he stone-wall you?

I'm not kidding myself, I know there must be more, but I'm still working on that...

How are you working on that? Assume there is more because there is. But you have to look at yourself as an individual and not at the relationship entity. Problems in a relationship are two people coming together with baggage and issues which cause friction when they collide.

He stonewalls. You need to talk. These two actions collide and cause a problem. They are opposing actions. He needs to talk to you, and you need to give him space not to. (I don't mean right now, just as a general solution to this specific kind of issue)

And for a few questions. I am still cooking for the family, doing all the laundry, ironing his clothes, etc. That doesn't bother me at all. He mentioned doing his own a few weeks ago and I said no, we are still married and that (to me) falls under one of my tasks to do. When his parents detached (they are still married living parallel lives) his dad started doing his own laundry to prove and point and be independent. I told H that I didn't see the point of us following their lead because I'm still the wife and we all still live here. One of his biggest fears is us turning into his parents marriage. My friends are giving me grief that he is cake-eating since I still do everything around here and I need to let him take care of himself so he can 'appreciate me'. Thoughts on this?

My W and I still do the laundry when each of us has the house. This includes kids, hers and mine - whatever needs to be washed. She does not hang up my shirts or put stuff in drawers, I do since she moved back into the master bedroom. (We are never at the house at the same time)

How about you guys splitting the total laundry rather than separating them into his and hers? One week you do the laundry, next week he does. This kills two birds with one stone. Makes him carry half the load and keeps it from splitting you two further apart.

So my question is do I 'listen' and give him space or do I ask him about the other email address which will only tick him off? I'm leaning toward not asking. If they don't text all day the friendship will definitely die off and if I ask and make him mad, he can just create a new email account I don't know about. At some point I will have to have trust in him again.

This isn't so simple. But, I can say, you need to take him out of the equation. Stop worrying about how he is going to react and think only about you, your boundaries, what is acceptable for you at this point. If your boundary is complete transparency, then I would ask him. If you have that boundary and you don't ask you are not enforcing your boundary.

You are thinking about it so you have some worry. Can you accept it like it is without driving yourself crazy? Like you said, he could always open up another secret email even if he gives you this one. Or email from work. There comes a point where you have to stop playing Whack-A-Mole because it could go on indefinitely.

Do each of you have a password protected account on the home computer? If you do, I would recommend sharing those passwords.

Some things are kept quiet by necessity. Does he have access here? Do you want him here? I'd say no, so you keep this place hidden and secret.

[steady]

And on page 70 of Divorce Busting there is some info on a study about schizophrenics... it explains a bit about how when the mother 'overparents' the father kind of backs off to the sidelines. I do think that happened in our household. He is/was never here so I ran the whole show and when he walked in he could play with them and leave.

How did that make you feel? If you didn't like the way you felt, what did you do about it?

He makes plans for himself without any thought of if I have plans or if there will be anyone to watch the kids.

How did that make you feel? If you didn't like the way you felt, what did you do about it?

One of my 180s this week was going to be to ask him what night he could be home early so I could go out for a little bit on my own. If he asks where I guess I'll tell him to a few stores. This will give me a little bit of time to shop for new clothes without toting 2 toddlers and give them some time with their daddy without me around to either critique him or run over to help out if someone cries.

Perfect! Make sure you do it. Something healthy for you as a person to do.

Why do you critique him? How do you think it makes him feel when you do that? Are you overly critical? Is it your way or the highway? Do you believe there are different parenting styles?

Do you believe a man has a different interaction with kids than a woman? (I am much more physical with my kids than my W is (masculine energy) and of course, she always had some critique - too late, too much, might get hurt, teaching them violence...lol...OMFG drove me nuts)

Also perfect to allow him to take care of the responsibilities, ie: you not being there to take over when someone cries. Don't you want him to be more involved with his kids than he is? Don't you think he wants this also?

[pearlharbr]

If H has an email account that both of you know about and he deliberately did not give you the password to it then assume that he is still using it to contact OW (or at least keeping that option open). Dagny is correct -- believe nothing he says and half of what he does. This applies even if it's what you want to hear/see/believe.

My advice would be to install a keylogger on the home computer so you can see if he is still in contact with OW. At the same time I would focus on you and make the time for self-improvement.

I like the idea of your 180 plan for the week. But don't feel the need to explain where you're going or what you're doing. He is a father, he can and should be responsible for some parenting time and you deserve some time off. If H says he can't watch the kids for an evening then say fine, get a sitter, and go out anyway.

[Dagny-2]

My friends are giving me grief that he is cake-eating since I still do everything around here and I need to let him take care of himself so he can 'appreciate me'. Thoughts on this?

This stuck out to me, I think we have to be careful in not making decisions to try and manipulate how they feel/think. We have no control over what they think or feel as we have so painfully found out. If you want to do the laundry, tell him, I want to do it. Simple, to the point. But that goes with all the other choices, what do you want? But that said, I guess the whole DBing is maniuplating them to a degree. But I still think we need to state what we want and not make choices based on guessing how they feel. Now that I wrote this, I'm just more confused!

How is The Mission going?

Dagny

[MM78]

I still have more thinking to do to the questions above, but I took a sleeping pill and need to just write out tonight before I forget.

Today was good - went to the Dr., starting a new antidepressant tomorrow, got fresh foods and made a healthy dinner that turned out pretty good. Didn't get to the Y but we walked to my appointment and plan to tour the Y tomorrow.

Tonight I was finishing up dishes ready to go upstairs before H got home but he walked in then. He went to say goodnight to D1. When he came back he said he told her she could call any time she wants. I said during the day or when you are overnight? He said anytime, I think she should always be able to talk to me any time, don't you think? I asked if he was planning on moving out. He said well that is how it looks, don't you think?

I probably should have shut up but I said no, I don't think so. I asked if he was saying he wanted a divorce and he said yes. I explained calmly that I do not, and after thinking long and hard I don't think it will benefit any of the four of us. If he can identify that I alone am the source of his unhappiness I will reconsider, but I explained that he doesn't make me unhappy. I do enjoy spending time with him and the family. He also doesn't make me happy and I said no one else but me can do that. He can enhance my happiness, but I believe only I can make myself happy. I said I don't think that teaching my daughters that when things are tough we just bail is a good lesson.

He said it's been 12 years (the time always changes) not 7 weeks, and I said I understand you say that but prior to 7 weeks ago when did you explain to me that you were unhappy in the relationship? He said never. And I said that is why I feel like it's 7 weeks. I said if I was a horrible parent to the kids and both of them acted fine and happy, why would I change anything? I would assume things are going along fine. I asked if he talked to anyone else about the situation and if they thought anything... he said who do I have to talk to? (On Friday he told me he can't even talk to his mom because she and I are friendly.)

There was also a discussion where I identified some things I did wrong. I said when you stonewalled me and wouldn't talk about things I made the mistake of talking to other people about us. I should not have done that, it was wrong, and I take responsibility for that. Neither of us kept the bond between us to just ourselves and let it be sacred, in our own way we both turned outward. I am examining things that I did wrong and take ownership of them and am going to change them.

There was a little more said but at the end he walked away and said ok, we did a little more talking, now I need to have time alone to think. He said we'll keep doing this talk and think cycle.

I honestly had no intention of talking about anything at all tonight but he brought it up. When I said something about I am just trying to finish up here and head up, he said well I initiated the conversation to you so it's ok, I want to talk.

I know that yet again I went against most of the DB'ing, but I still am focused on working on myself and GAL. I feel like he wants to talk and what I say actually does resonate with him. I also feel like he is trying to test all his arguments on me to see if I will agree and then we can both say ok, yeah, divorce is best, but I do not agree. It's almost like he is testing me or something. He gives me arguments why it won't work because 'it hasn't for so long', 'we don't have anything in common', he doesn't want to be touched/snuggled/held, he likes sleeping alone.

So there it all is. I feel like I can actually sleep easy tonight. I am firm on my belief that none of the 4 of us would benefit from a divorce and I'm focused on being the individual and being the mom (and hopefully wife) that I want to be - for me, not to win him back or anything.

[MM78]

Why do you critique him? How do you think it makes him feel when you do that? Are you overly critical? Is it your way or the highway? Do you believe there are different parenting styles?

These are 'easy' to answer though. Critiquing was the basis of my whole career - in quality assurance I was a 'nitpicker'. My job and success was based on me finding fault with the work of others. I realize this is not conducive to relationships.

I do not think I am overly critical but I think that just being around when he is with the kids, they gravitate to ward me because I anticipate their needs, I know when things are about to escalate and can diffuse their tantrums, etc. I have made comments that were meant to be silly regarding his outfit choices which I realize are deprecating - like, I guess school will know it was daddy's day to dress you guys, when they have hair in 5 barrettes all over and are dressed like boys. I can see this was wrong and petty and something stupid to criticize.

[steady]

These are 'easy' to answer though. Critiquing was the basis of my whole career - in quality assurance I was a 'nitpicker'. My job and success was based on me finding fault with the work of others. I realize this is not conducive to relationships.

No it isn't conducive. It's counter-productive. It also causes the man to stop taking the initiative because why bother if I'm sure she'll have some criticism. I lived this in my M. This in turn creates a loop where the W starts to feel like they have to do everything and the H is not carrying his load. Unbeknownst to the W, she 'accidentaly' co-created the dynamic. H didn't stand firm against the criticism and explain people will do things differently. Doesn't make one way right and the other wrong. (His part in co-creating dynamic)

I do not think I am overly critical but I think that just being around when he is with the kids, they gravitate to ward me because I anticipate their needs, I know when things are about to escalate and can diffuse their tantrums, etc.

So, what if you didn't anticipate their needs? What would happen that would be so terrible. What would happen if you let your H deal with them? Do you think he would learn to anticipate their needs? I was never afforded that opportunity. So here I am now, single parenting my kids and I have learned to anticipate their needs. How did I do that? It took me being alone parenting them. Whenever my W was in the picture she would step in which never gave me the opportunity to learn the same skill. What if you took the pencil out of your kids hand everytime they went to write a letter and wrote it for them? Would they ever learn to write?

I have made comments that were meant to be silly regarding his outfit choices which I realize are deprecating - like, I guess school will know it was daddy's day to dress you guys, when they have hair in 5 barrettes all over and are dressed like boys. I can see this was wrong and petty and something stupid to criticize.

Not small and petty. The impact it had on your H was hugely destructive.

I let my kids pick their own clothes. If they don't want to, I'll pick them out. Sometimes my D will say she doesn't want that shirt or those pants. Then I get her to pick the one she wants. I could care a less if they color match, are in season, are trendy and clean without stains. Who do the kids need to impress? I think it's more about how the parent feels if someone should see their darling child dressed 'that way'.

Here's a challenge for you - why do they have to match? Why do they have to be the way YOU THINK they should be? Why is the way he thinks it should be less valuable or less right than yours?

Were you overly critical? (yes, I know you answered this in your last post - maybe take another look?) To me, overly critical is to be critical of something which warrants no criticism.

[Piano]

MM78, I am sorry you are going through this. Its a truism that the more you hold on to them, convince them the M is worth fighting for, the more they run. The more you tell him it can work between you, the more it reminds him how he feel it can't work. Your H is all about his FEELINGS right now. He doesn't feel he loves you. Maybe you could try agreeing and validating him. Read up on posts by Robx and Gucci.

Maybe life has thrown you an opportunity to learn to care for yourself better and put yourself first.
I recommend a book called "Put Your Big Girl Panties On" by Roz Van Meter which is all about learning to treat yourself well and take charge of your own life.

[LRT Land]

MM - it is so hard to go through all of this with young children. It helps me to read other threads and see how hard others are working too to get through all of this.

I think you are doing a good job at looking inward and improving yourself. It does seem like dropping the rope may help in your situation. I did it for a while while I did my 180s and GAL, and it helped. The new wrinkle has upset the apple cart again, but because it's either the second time in a couple months or because of his reaction to this precious subject I feel even more strongly that I need to take care of me and let the chips fall where they may.

My H often struggles between wanting to be single and enjoying all his hobbies and several women to satisfy his high sx drive (though who he's going to find to date in his 50s I'm curious about) and wanting to be married with children. They need to decide for themselves and we need to let them. Be your best and if he comes around then he's still the right husband for you. Try not to chase or talk about the R. Live YOUR life.

[MM78]

I am still absorbing all the advice given to me since last night.

I am confused on one thing though. I know talking to him about the R and M is not the right thing to do right now, but when he initiates it, it always seems to take me by surprise because we honestly haven't talked about these things in about 10 years. It is a 180 for me to be confident about us and be the strong one, usually I'm the weak one emotionally. So if I think he is asking me these things to look for reassurance that I believe it will work, I am still supposed to try to avoid the conversation? Just validate his feelings and listen? Wouldn't he view that as I'm in agreement that things are dismal and that he's right, divorce must be the right solution?

I feel like I should be 'getting' this more, I spend tons of time reading the books (both DB'ing and Divorce Remedy) and threads on here, my new FT job is focusing on all this, but then when it comes to applying it to my life I just get stupid again.