Is the man I used to know re-emerging?

[LanceSijan]

Are there other signs that you’re aware of?

Cadet did a review of Surviving Male Menopause by Jed Diamond. He listed the symptoms of male and female menopause in that review. Here is the link to that review.

It is the 7th post down the page.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1993004&page=3

[goodattitudegirl]

Lance,

Thanks for the link, and thanks to cadet for posting this!

I have 2 of Jed Diamond's books and have read most of them. After the bomb, when I first suspected MLC, I was confused about how to proceed since H/XH was already filing for D........and of course early on it's difficult to know whether someone is a WAS or MCLer. Since I've become pretty certain he is in MLC, the path has become clearer in that several LBSs of MCLers were able to reconnect on some level after enough time had elapsed. That is what I am seeing in my situation so far.

GAG

[FindingMyVoice]

Good morning GAG, I'm so sorry I haven't replied to your post on my thread until this morning. We had company this weekend, and although I had time to read through your thread, I didn't have time to post the kind of reply I wanted to. So thought I'd wait til this morning so I could give it more time and thought. Thanks so much for your comments on my sitch. I really appreciate the support. Thanks also for asking for my perspective on your sitch - I shall do my best to offer you something useful!

I'm so sorry you find yourself in the sitch you're in. It certainly sounds like it's been a frustrating time for you, but I admire the way you're handling it! I am always so impressed by folks who are able to master setting such healthy boundaries in a mutually respectful way, for example when you didn't allow him to reschedule a date on such short notice, and letting him know he didn't have to housesit that time.

The first suggestion that comes to mind is to recommend you either download or go buy a couple books by Terrence Real. He's a therapist who specializes in working with men. I've listened to two of his books - 'How Can I Get Through to You - Reconnecting Men and Women', and 'The New Rules of Marriage: What You Need to Know to Make Love Work'. These are both exceptional resources and have been very empowering and enlightening to me, in understanding both myself and my H. He's also written another you might be interested in: 'I Don't Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression'. I haven't read this third book, but it has excellent reviews on Amazon.

I'm so happy to hear you both have begun to reconnect. So, you asked me 'Do you think that there are certain things that I need to watch for as we begin to reconnect?'. But I'm going to reply in kind of a counter-intuitive way. (And I do hope this won't offend...) I think the things you need to watch for and pay attention to right now, are more in yourself than in him! Here's why I say that...

You identified at the beginning of this thread that he had an alcoholic mom and workaholic dad. And later, you mentioned you felt he had a fear of connection. I think you're bang on there. I feel so badly for you both to learn that he refused counseling. However, I'm not surprised to hear of this either. His first family set him up as a bit of a loner. My parent's issues were not so extreme, but they were also unavailable to me growing up. This sets a person up to expect to have solve ALL their own issues and have extreme difficulty maintaining intimate connections in life. Establishing them is easier, maintaining them is the problem because they just don't know how to ask for the support, help and connection they need. Often they don't even think they're entitled to need it; they want it, but it makes them feel guilty and ashamed for wanting it - for expecting it from others. So, they stuff it down where it often turns into withdrawal. Thus the resistance to telling an intimate partner that they're unhappy (as you mentioned at the top of your thread). I think that's perhaps why he turned to his BMF...the connection with you was so strong that he perhaps felt asking for what he needed was too risky (although I think that's all an unconscious thing) Granted that's a vicious circle because it's those behaviors - eg) lack of communication and withholding feelings - that break the connection and drive Rs apart anyways. Anyways, this brings me to why I'm suggesting you continue to take care of your own self first...

I think that to really help continuing that reconnection with him, you're going to have to keep modeling those healthy boundaries, growing your communication/listening skills and show him how to reach out and connect in healthy ways. One instance that kind of caught me was when he told you but didn't give you details on going on the vacay/work trip - I think you were wondering if there was OW involved. What struck me was that although you were wondering, you didn't ask him for any more info about the trip. It sounds like you had some un-asked, and un-answered questions there. Not pushy details about who he was going with etc, granted, but just as casual conversation about a trip he was planning. Was there something there that made you resist asking? Why do you think you didn't ask? What response did you think you'd get?

Anyways, it doesn't sound like he ever had a role model to show him those crucial relationship skills before - much like both myself and my H. And I found that the more I'm learning about them, and learning to develop them, (with the help and instruction of my IC), the more my H has begun learning too. Granted, don't forget helping him learn is a benefit, not the purpose of learning these skills. You need to 'put on your own life jacket first, before you can help anyone else out of the water'. But I think the more you experience and model those healthy R skills, the more likely it is that he will continue to be drawn back to you. At least, that's what I've experienced - in fact, I found I've been more drawn back to my H as much as he's been drawn back to me. (Yes there's bumps, but overall I think this is the trend)

PS. I hope this isn't going to sound too hokey, but I'm going to suggest it... have you been, or might you be able, to keep a diary of your interactions with him? Specifically, keep a record of times you've been assertive with him, or have successfully shared your feelings about something with him about something important to you (I can't remember the topic, but I'd liked where Jody suggested you do that! She said 'you're human too'). Then track his reaction, even if it doesn't come for a while, so you can watch how your patterns evolve.

Anyways I'm sorry about the length of this post. I do hope that there's something useful for you there - even if it's just the book suggestions! Take care, I'll keep on watching your thread and I'm cheering for you! FMV.

[FindingMyVoice]

Whoops sorry, editing note - second last paragraph where I'm commenting on what I liked about Jody's advice to you... I didn't mean to say that Jody had suggested you keep a diary - don't think she said that - but more that I like'd she'd said you were human too. That you have a right to share your feelings too. Here's the reference I was remembering:

I replied that I have had a turbulent 6 months at work that has caused financial stress for me, but that as I understand DBing principles, if I talk to XH about this it will likely impose guilt (I left a very busy career for my current job because H/XH felt neglected because of my work schedule). Jody said that I can communicate this to XH in a guilt-free way. She suggested something like this: “New jobs all have stress. We always uncover some potholes, and boy am I finding out that there are some big black holes! I need a vacation. I’m trying to think about what short-term trips I can take”. She said I should let him know that I’m human too, but I’m dealing with my problem.

I think that's stellar advice. Anyways, I've rambled so long I don't know if I've given you what you were hoping for... but still, hope it helps. Take care, FMV.

[goodattitudegirl]

Wow!!!!! FMV, your advice was INCREDIBLE and exactly what I needed to hear! THank you! I will reply more after work.

Thank you VERY much for your thoughtful reply.

Best,

GAG

[Gardener]

FMV,

The first suggestion that comes to mind is to recommend you either download or go buy a couple books by Terrence Real. He's a therapist who specializes in working with men. I've listened to two of his books - 'How Can I Get Through to You - Reconnecting Men and Women', and 'The New Rules of Marriage: What You Need to Know to Make Love Work'. These are both exceptional resources and have been very empowering and enlightening to me, in understanding both myself and my H. He's also written another you might be interested in: 'I Don't Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression'. I haven't read this third book, but it has excellent reviews on Amazon.

Excellent advice for GAG (or anyone). I've read them all and have been to one of his three day workshops in Cambridge. Excellent.

[FindingMyVoice]

Excellent advice for GAG (or anyone). I've read them all and have been to one of his three day workshops in Cambridge. Excellent.

Lucky! Loved his work and wish he would write more soon. Love innovative thinking that challenges the status quo. Tell us more about his workshop, Gardener? What was discussed? Was there anything in particular you took away, that stood out in your mind?

[goodattitudegirl]

FMV,

Thank you very much for reading my thread and giving me such thoughtful feedback. I really, really do appreciate it! I am going to try to respond to each of your points.

you asked me 'Do you think that there are certain things that I need to watch for as we begin to reconnect?'. But I'm going to reply in kind of a counter-intuitive way. (And I do hope this won't offend...) I think the things you need to watch for and pay attention to right now, are more in yourself than in him!..............I think that to really help continuing that reconnection with him, you're going to have to keep modeling those healthy boundaries, growing your communication/listening skills and show him how to reach out and connect in healthy ways.

I think that you are 'spot on' with this advice. This is an area where I have seen glimmers of response from XH in the past.......and it is actually the area in which I am most aware that I need improvement to be a good partner in any future R. For example, in a convo I had with XH in April (2010) I decided to be genuinely intimate, as described in the book “Intimacy and Desire” (Davie Schnarch). At one point in the convo I spoke about my mother’s cognitive decline with Alzheimers and about how I had learned through my reading over the past 1 ½ years that I am a distancer and how my mother’s unpredictable rages had led to this behavior in me. (My mother's unpredictable rages mirrored XH's mother's alcoholic rages --- I'm certain that we recognized this in each other when we met and this 'shared experience' made us feel safe with one another). I apologized to XH for how my propensity to distance had affected our R. Tears were rolling down my cheeks (no sobbing). I was being very, very honest in a way that XH and I rarely were in our relationship. I could see some softening in his eyes, but his facial expression was just as unemotional as always, but gradually, over the next few months, we began to reconnect after this interaction.

So much of DB'ing is putting on a 'game face' and I have been DBing so long (it seems) that I find it challenging to begin to let my guard down with XH. This is something I have been trying to figure out how to do, so if anyone can give me examples I would really appreciate it! I DO think this is a key for me in this R and any future romantic Rs I might have. I have worked on healthly boundary-setting over the past 10 years or so. This does not come naturally to me. In my FOO, healthy boundaries were not respected, thus one more reason for me to distance.

The first suggestion that comes to mind is to recommend you either download or go buy a couple books by Terrence Real. He's a therapist who specializes in working with men. I've listened to two of his books - 'How Can I Get Through to You - Reconnecting Men and Women', and 'The New Rules of Marriage: What You Need to Know to Make Love Work'. .......... He's also written another you might be interested in: 'I Don't Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression'.

FMV and Gardener, I am a big fan of Terrence Real too! I read 'The New Rules of Marriage' shortly after the bomb and bought the other 2 books then as well --- only managed to get half-way through those--- side-tracked, but I like your suggestion of downloading the books for my commute. Good idea! Thinking it might be a good time to listen to 'How Can I Get Through to You?' since we seem to be reconnecting.

Gardener, I agree with FMV. Would you please share what you learned from his workshop? Thanks!

I think that to really help continuing that reconnection with him, you're going to have to keep modeling those healthy boundaries, growing your communication/listening skills and show him how to reach out and connect in healthy ways. One instance that kind of caught me was when he told you but didn't give you details on going on the vacay/work trip - I think you were wondering if there was OW involved. What struck me was that although you were wondering, you didn't ask him for any more info about the trip. It sounds like you had some un-asked, and un-answered questions there. Not pushy details about who he was going with etc, granted, but just as casual conversation about a trip he was planning. Was there something there that made you resist asking?

FMV, that's a really good observation on your part. I'm sure there are probably several good examples of this. I will think about that....On this particular topic, I actually DID ask him if he had found a good vacation package and asked him to share what that might be since I need to take a mini-vacay. He told me where he was going but didn't give any additional info. I let it drop after that since he has just recently begun to peek out of his tunnel.

I think that to really help continuing that reconnection with him, you're going to have to keep modeling those healthy boundaries, growing your communication/listening skills and show him how to reach out and connect in healthy ways......... You need to 'put on your own life jacket first, before you can help anyone else out of the water'. But I think the more you experience and model those healthy R skills, the more likely it is that he will continue to be drawn back to you. At least, that's what I've experienced - in fact, I found I've been more drawn back to my H as much as he's been drawn back to me. (Yes there's bumps, but overall I think this is the trend)

Yes, this is what I know that I need to do. I have found David Schnarch's work to be very helpful in figuring out how to do set boundaries and communicate from the heart. If anyone has found good resources for gaining skill in these areas, please share!

I hope this isn't going to sound too hokey, but I'm going to suggest it... have you been, or might you be able, to keep a diary of your interactions with him? Specifically, keep a record of times you've been assertive with him, or have successfully shared your feelings about something with him about something important to you (I can't remember the topic, but I'd liked where Jody suggested you do that! She said 'you're human too'). Then track his reaction, even if it doesn't come for a while, so you can watch how your patterns evolve.

FMV, I REALLY like this suggestion! I have made copious notes since the bomb to prepare for my sessions with Jody, but I like your angle on this (to observe for the way XH responds to my genuine communication and boundary-setting). It makes sense and appeals to my analytical side.

FMV, you have given me much food for thought. Please visit any time.
Gardener, nice to see you on my thread again.

Best,

GAG

[FindingMyVoice]

Don't have much time this morning but just wanted to stop by and see how you were doing. Really glad I was able to help. Take care. FMV.

[courageous wife]

Hey GAG

Just read what you wrote on my thread...thankyou! I hope you get your PMA back too! Looks like you have gotten some wonderful food for thought from G and FMV!!!