As long as you come across as the jealous one, the possessive one, the one that wants a committment before she is ready, the one who keeps wanting to talk about the relationship, the one who keeps failing to be the first to tire of the relationship talks, is as long as this will carry on and NOT be in your favor...
You are the female in this relationship as it stands.
The BEST thing for you to do is to AGREE with what SHE says (notice that I say "says" she wants)...
"WAW. I have been doing some thinking and here is what I have decided. I think that you are right. We should just relax and have fun and stop talking about the relationship. Go ahead and date others. I now see what you meant. I want to date others too. If we are meant to be together, then nothing can hold us apart. As far as sleeping with others, I think that is our own personal business. I don't want to know who you are sleeping with or if you are sleeping with other people. I don't care to divulge my personal sleepiing habits to you either. Let's just play it by ear from here on out. You can see anybody you want to see and I will too."
And THEN YOU BE THE ONE TO START DATING OTHER WOMEN...Date up a storm..... I would stop asking your WAW out altogether. Make her ask YOU out. you WANT her to wonder if this dating others idea she ahd BACKFIRED on HER. Did YOU find someone else that YOU like better. She has never had to worry or wonder about that because you are like a love sick puppy to her and she knows she can have you at any time any place.. How sad
This trying to be the stand up guy and show her how great you are is NOT working. It is turning her OFF. She is bored and wants to chase but you won't allow her to How sad that you won't call her bluff on this dating and sleeping around nonsense. This is usually what the female is doing to get the man to committ.You are the female here. UNATTRACTIVE to her. You should be letting her see that she WAS right. This dating others is great for YOU... Life is good.. Women are good... I love my life.. Thanks for the great idea honey... etc. etc. etc...
I hear you. I'm learning. I don't think our conversation was quite as lopsided as you describe, but your point is taken. I've gone from being COMPLETELY wussy to now only slightly wussy. When she indicated she was interested in dating others, I conveyed an attitude not totally different from what you said. I did go out and have fun, I didn't contact her at all. I said I wasn't interested in going to Disney with her because "WE are dating other people", not "SHE is dating other men". I practically cut off from her altogether. I think that's why she backpedaled so much in our conversation. I'm not quite the open book I used to be. I do have her wondering. Her little manipulations and flirting aren't working like they used to.
Quote:
Your other opiton..
"I have been doing some thinking and I realize that I don't want you to date around and see me too. That isn't what I am lookikng for. I think we should go our separate ways for now."
That's pretty close to what I told her, but I think your first suggestion is the better one.
Quote:
You have been getting played... One minute she needs time to find out who she is.. The next minute she needs time to find out what makes her happy and now it is something else. You are too easy and that makes it hard for her to be attracted to you. Somone else is going to come along sooner or later if you don't wise up...
You should be showing her how much fun you are having WITHOUT her..You should want her to want to be with you because you are sooooo much fun.. She should be asking you if she can go with YOU to... (fill in the blank of fun things you are doing with other women without her along)...
You just don't get it. Women like men who are fun, men who don't pressure. men who can take or leave them.. men who are going somewhere... They hate BORING men.. What does she have to do to get you to understand that she is bored out of her skull???? You are boring her with this "exclusive, jealous of her ex, this isn't an ultimatium, and who she has on her Facebook talk"... WISE UP.
I really don't think she is explicitly and purposely playing me. I think the emotional gyrations in her are coming out in these random manipulative actions. Doesn't really matter though, as the end result is the same.
I think I get it, I'm just not very good at it yet. As I said before, SHE is the one asking for all these relationship talks, including the last one. She asked to talk, she suggested the time and place. I just showed up. I am very fun and light when I'm with her, EXCEPT when this CRAP comes up. I really only had one requirement, that she gets OM out of her life. I understand what you're saying, but his presence is absolutely toxic to our R. I can't be light and fun around her with him in the picture, which is why I just go away. If she wants me light and fun, she has to get rid of him. As far as her dating other men, I don't think I acted jealous, just matter of fact stated that it wasn't appropriate to travel together as a family if we're dating other people. She is a world class cake eater. Allowing her to cake eat is the guaranteed way to keep this thing in limbo forever.
Her seeing me having a great time without her is what drew her back before. She is asking me to go to concerts, to fireworks, to Disney, to my gigs playing out. As long as OM is in the picture, I don't WANT to let her have that, but if I don't say that to her, how will she know? She's so clueless about what his presence means, so yes, I've "feminized" myself by having to lay that out to her. Otherwise, she'll just see me keeping my distance, turning down her offers, and not knowing why. How was I supposed to convey that her getting rid of OM is the requirement for getting me back in her life if I don't tell her? I agree, it looks jealous, and possessive, and feminine, but what else should I have done?
I do really like your first suggestion. Thanks for the time you're putting into this.
How was I supposed to convey that her getting rid of OM is the requirement for getting me back in her life if I don't tell her?
you do this by playing the field yourself. date as many woman as you can afford. date her divorced best friend. find one that plays bass.
you don't tell her a word. you simply drop off the face of the earth. your woman is a smart one; she will smell it on you from the other end of the phone. you will reek of 'I dont need you anylonger.'
The other man in the picture is not going away until she realizes this open marriage proposition was not what she wanted in the first place. Right now it is ideal for her. This guy, that guy, drinks, flirt, fun, fun, fun.
BUT THEN .... all of sudden Future is gone from the picture. She realizes, Future may be funning someone else. The flip flopper maybe flip flopping some girl around his bed.
WOAH .... all of sudden you will hear "I think we should be exclusive to eachother and spend everynight as a family." The busy schedule and need to find herself will disappear real quick.
You are thinking to much. You are trying to hard. You are over analyzing all these "techniques."
This is a true story for Chuck, since the Chevy Nova story went over his head ...
I had this girl in one of my classes this spring, her name was 'Zoot.' No lie. She signed up for Botany because she had a Rose tattoed on her butt. It was an Biology elective for her but she did finished the semester with a "B" on multiple choice exams and a single paper. She made the best Vodka Gimlets for a young girl 'tending her way through school. An artist.
You could never imagine how hard my wife tried to make a better Gimlet straight up.
It's funny. Her tendancy to manipulate is so entrenched. I can see her fighting it, and trying to be open and honest, but it's a struggle for her. I'm struggling against my own entrenched tendancy to avoid, and fix, and please.
Gawd, Future, I could have written that myself. That hit so close to home for me that I found it physically uncomfortable to read.
We are a lot alike, you and I, and so are our wives.
Puppy
I've gotten that impression too. I'm not sure if the combination of my W and me is a good thing, for me that is. It's like she's custom made to perfectly exploit my "nice guy" tendancies. . . . She's just instinctively manipulative to try to get what she wants. She is a very good mother. Our kids are well behaved, easy going, and fun. Pretty much everyone who meets our kids finds them very charming. All that must mean something. She is so good at getting me to disarm, but then seems bored when I do. I think she's just as perplexed and frustrated by it as I am!
I don't know what it is. I'm no pushover at work. I don't take crap, and I am very confident in advocating for myself and my agenda. I don't allow my kids to manipulate me (at least not much, lol). She just seems to have my number.
The other man in the picture is not going away until she realizes this open marriage proposition was not what she wanted in the first place. Right now it is ideal for her. This guy, that guy, drinks, flirt, fun, fun, fun.
BUT THEN .... all of sudden Future is gone from the picture. She realizes, Future may be funning someone else. The flip flopper maybe flip flopping some girl around his bed.
WOAH .... all of sudden you will hear "I think we should be exclusive to eachother and spend everynight as a family." The busy schedule and need to find herself will disappear real quick.
That is EXACTLY what I did earlier this year, and yes, it absolutely worked. Unfortunately, her comes out destructively, as in suing me for custody of my kids! I know in her head, she was thinking "I won't have some other woman with my kids. If H wants to screw around with some whore, I'll show him, I'll take the kids and he can screw around all he wants!" Sometimes I think she's nuts. I went from standing across from her in courtroom, to her trying to seduce me and singing my praises, in a matter of weeks!
When she came after me, she did want us together virtually every night, she wanted to know where I was, she wanted me by her side. Then this crap with OM came up, and her attraction divebombed. I did feel like it was making me look weak, but I had been putting up with her cake eating ways for TWO YEARS!
Seems to me, Future, like there is a lot of game-playing being suggested here. You have to hold true to yourself ... at least, that is what I find attractive in a man. Think about it ... will you have to constantly be keeping your W on her toes once she comes back home? When will she just love you for the man you are? I have noticed a number of people (mostly men) who have come back here after supposedly 'saving' their M. I wonder if they were playing the game and couldn't keep it up after they got their wives back.
Look, if someone (a person who has been married to you a number of years, has children with you) cannot love you for the person you are ... then I would say hasta la vista baby, ciao. Mean what you say, don't play the game. If bust this divorce, and she comes back, then discovers that you were playing her (even though she is doing it), she will leave again. I think you are the honorable type. Being honorable doesn't mean you have to tell her everything though, and you have to stick to your boundaries. If she wants to go and do the flirty thing, and still have OM on her FB, etc. then so be it. Time to step back.
I think you are doing an awesome job. Just my point of view.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Hi BeingMe, those thoughts have occurred to me too. I can maybe attract her back, but if we reconcile, my option of "dating others" is gone, and so we need to be able to keep our R strong without that on the table any more. Gucci says she's bored, but I am NOT a boring person. I have a very interesting job, I run competitively in races, I perform in front of people, I love sports, I love good movies, I love good food, I love good drink, I'm great with my kids. From what I could gather, OM is much more boring than me. He only has the fantasy of living in another country. He does have the "take her or leave her" attitude about my W, because he just doesn't really care.
She is bored because she knows she can have me. I was making it too easy for her. I have to make her doubt that, and even if we reconcile, I have to make it clear I won't tolerate having my boundaries violated, and walking away is absolutely on the table. I have to break this "spell" she has on me, and maintain my own boundaries and self worth above and beyond my R with her. That's what I was trying to do in our conversation the other day.
I've said it here over and over, the "spell" is NOT her, it's our kids. I grew up in an intact family, she didn't. She just doesn't value it the way I do. I have a hard time always putting MY boundaries first, when it's the kids that will suffer. I need to drill it into my thick skull that maintaining my boundaries and self worth will lead to a strong marriage and family, and be far BETTER for the kids. My W is sneaky though. She chips away at boundaries, little by little, always guaging how much she can get away with, letting that normalize, then chipping away a little more. Eventually when I reach a point of having enough, it seems to be an overreaction, since it was preceded by her taking a small chip. Infuriating!!!!
Yeah, the "A+" quickly becomes a "C-" if Future wavers on this one. This (to me, anyway) would be a DEALBREAKER, and it seems to me, more importantly, that Future has made it one as well. Once a boundary has laid, it has GOT to be enforced, or you will forever lose credibility, respect and yes -- love.
Yes, absolutely. My dealbreaker was about us going away on a trip together, and I told her I'm not going, so I have held on that. One thing I omitted from our conversation was that she tried to guilt me into going. She said something like "I can't believe you are choosing to miss your kids first visit to Disney, and you're being so selfish as to deny them sharing it with you." What a load of crap. Does she really think if she hadn't had an A and left me that I'd choose to skip a trip to Disney with my kids? That was a return to old school manipulation on her part.
I've been reading along (for some time now!). All I can really say is your W sounds exhausting. She does sound smart, that I will give her, but I wouldn't be so sure her manipulation is not as planned as you think.
This has been going on for a very long time in some form or the other. I do admire the the love you have for her and your desire to do right by your children. Eventually though something is going to have to give. Your W is smart as long as you buy into her idea of "smart". Once you stop doing that she tends to act (as per your description) quite dumb.
Think about it - how could ANYBODY in the RIGHT MIND even say out loud to a spouse they cheated on... "well doll, I didn't realize it would be a problem to swap music files with the man I traveled around the world for to have a torrid affair with" COME ON LADY! She *thought* though she could use her "tools" (which are impressive LOL) to somehow convince you she didn't understand. Please.
I can't say what is right about dating or not dating but I do think you bring up a good point... once all this chase business is part of the past will she be content with a "regular R"?
