Sorry folks for the long period of silence. I had to travel back to Michigan for my Grandmother's funeral, and was there for a week. My daughter's birthday was a couple days after returning. I had agreed weeks ago to throw our daughter's party together with W, so I held off on our talk until it was done. I have to admit, the party was an blast. W threw it at her house. My idea was for W to set up a stage in her garage, and I'd set up my PA and mics, and my gift to my daughter was a karaoke machine for her and her friends to have fun with at the party. A little hard on the ears, but the kids loved it. The day after the party, W and I agreed to meet to talk.

During the party, W was acting quite flirtatious, but otherwise has been distant. Communication between us has been very minimal for the last several weeks. I was anticipating a fairly negative vibe in our conversation. I was wrong. We talked for a long time, and there's no way I can put it all here, so I'll try to include the most important parts.

Right off, W said "I hope this is the first of several conversations. I saw MC this morning, and we had a good talk that helped me understand a few things." Then we got into it, and W wanted to know what I meant by the text message I sent her while she was gone, saying that it was inappropriate to go to Disney together if we are dating other people. She was annoyed by its short and absolute message. She said "Can you explain what that was all about? I thought when I left we were looking good to go on the trip together." I said "First, when we talked about taking a trip together, I laid out what my dealbreakers are, and you completely ignored one of them." She acted confused, and said "What did I do?" I got a little ticked by her clueless act, and said "You called him." She said "You just said I needed to tell you, and I did." I said "No, my dealbreaker was that you contacting him in any way ever again, and if HE contacted YOU, then you need to tell me. Seems pretty clear to me." She looked a little scared and said "So that's it?" I just looked back at her without saying anything. She backed off and said "I misunderstood. I needed to contact him to end it once and for all. What would you have liked me to do?" I said "If you needed to do that, you needed to tell me, and get my input. Ask me if I was ok with it. See if I was more comfortable with an e-mail instead of a call." She looked at me and took my hands. She said "I'm sorry I didn't consider that." She seemed sincere, but I still wasn't feeling like she really GOT IT. She said "I'm totally fine living the rest of my life without ever talking to him again."

Then she got a little swagger back into her voice and said "But that's not even what your text message said. So what's going on? Which is it?" I said "It's all the same thing, if you want to be involved with other men, then it's not appropriate for us to be doing things together as a family." She said "I didn't even say that I wanted to date other men. I have no interest in dating other men. I just said I wanted to be able to go out and have fun, and flirt. All this is so much, and I can only take so much sadness and heartbreak. I need to have some fun and happiness in my life. Our time together has this toxic tinge to it. I believe I said that we should feel free to go out and have fun, and if either of us gets into a sitation where we want to have sex with someone else, then we should tell each other."

She again got annoyed and said "H, you're all worked up about OM, and that's not what the problem is." I said "If that isn't the problem, then it should have been nothing when I asked you why he was still on your facebook. You should have just said you didn't realize he was on there, it was nothing, and you'd immediately take him off. Then it would have been no big deal. But because you acted annoyed that I brought it up, and defended it, I know that it IS a big deal." She said "By then, I was already pulling away from you, so no, I didn't want to feel controlled by you. I feel like you're giving me these ultimatums, trying to control me, like you used to, and I won't go back to that." So ridiculous, if anyone in our marriage was being controlled, it was ME, not HER. I said "I haven't given you any ultimatums." She replied "You won't go to Disney if I say I'm going to go out and have fun and flirt." I said "It's not an ulimatum. You told me what you want, and I'm telling you what's right for me. Do whatever you want." She looked agitated. I can see her common manipulations aren't working, and it's causing her anxiety to build up. Her face and neck were getting flushed, a sign of anxiety in her.

She got a defeated tone, and weakly tried to defend herself. She said "You know the reason I kept him on my facebook? I like looking at his music choices. I told you I really want to find some new music, and I was looking at his choices." What a pathetic thing to say. Does she really think I'll be fine with her keeping him in her life so she can take advantage of his music recommendations? Does she really not think I can see that it's some desperate attempt to keep him in her life? Is she serious?! By the way, he is STILL on her FB.

Then she said "H, I'm still trying to be hopeful about us, but I have to be honest, I don't think we can get past this. I don't think you'll ever let it go. I don't think I can ever do enough to convince you how sorry I am." I finally decided to employ a little gucci, and said "You're right, I'm not sure I ever can. My trust in you has been seriously broken, and I don't know if I can get it back. It'll take a long time." Her reaction was surprising. She perked up and looked relieved, and said "Thank you so much for saying that. Thank you." A beautiful demonstration of what is preached here so often. AGREE with them, make them feel like you are on THEIR side, not OPPOSING them. She wanted to know that I could feel the hopelessness of our situation WITH her.

Then she said something profoundly sad. She said "You know what <son> said to me when I told him about Disney? I said I had something exciting to tell them, and when I said we were going to Disney, he looked really sad and walked away. I went and talked to him and asked him why, but he wouldn't tell me. I asked him if he thought I was going to say that we were getthing back together, and he nodded and started crying." It hit me like a sledgehammer, and I almost broke down there at the table. She said "I know. I'm sorry. I can see how devastated you are by that. H, we were reckless. We can't do it anymore. If we want to find out if we can get this to work between us, it has to only be us, away from the kids. They can't see it any more until we know." I nodded, and said "With our schedules, that is so tough." She smiled and said "Why are you so negative on that? We just need to get a regular babysitter and go out on dates. It'll be fun." I was touched by her optimism.

I thought about perhaps discussing some potential date ideas, but our time was up, and she needed to get back for an appointment. She said "I can't take any more today. Let's just sit on what we said here today, and talk again, ok?" I looked at my watch and said "Ok." We had a long hug, and that was it.

I have skipped over a lot of stuff. It's impossible to include a whole one hour conversation here, but I think I captured the general flavor. It's funny. Her tendancy to manipulate is so entrenched. I can see her fighting it, and trying to be open and honest, but it's a struggle for her. I'm struggling against my own entrenched tendancy to avoid, and fix, and please. I don't know if we'll be able to find a new healthy way to be together.