Do you think you could get him to go away for a weekend marriage retreat thing? The one I went on with H was incredible!!! It takes the place of MONTHS of counseling, even though it isn't counseling. I truly think that where you are in this relationship, it would be extremely beneficial to you.
I am so slammed right now, I don't have the time until next week, but I want to post a lot about the weekend. Your H doesn't have to WANT to go, he only has to be willing to go - even if for the wrong reasons and even if it is with the worst attitude in the world.
We did a weekend marriage class not long after we married (Marriage Prep 101 in San Francisco). It didn't help. It ended up that I tried to follow through on the lessons we were taught, but he quickly went back to what he was doing. Eventually I think I got frustrated and fell back into my old patterns too. His response likely comes from his mindset over the years that *I* am the one with the problems.
I'd be open to doing one again, but am fearful that, once again, I'll be the only person "paying attention".
Me: 29 Him: 30 Married: 2 years Together: 13 years No kids Bomb: 6/4/10 Started MC: 7/16/10
Children that aren't parented end up like your H... and Sunny's H and everyone else's husband
He needs boundaries and education... a FT can provide that...
And no you aren't supposed to sit around in panic ... you should feel emotionally and physically safe in your marriage and your home.
The boundaries are there to protect that.
Honesty and transparency solidify those boundaries... Otherwise they are just hollow words with no force behind them.
Parents do thsi with children. There's no reason why adults shouldn't do this with each other.. YOU need boundaries too... make it something you both setup and agree to follow that will keep your H from getting defensive
We keep having these circular discussions about boundaries. I say I want to talk about them. He asks me what I "need from him". I tell him what my expectations are (and have even shown him the list in Glass's book and Penny's Fidelity Health Check). But then he starts struggling with certain "rules". He thinks they're too extreme in today's modern world (and it doesn't matter matter how many times I try to point out that he is in no place to judge what "appropriate" boundaries are given his actions, or how many times I point out that maybe so many divorces and affairs happen in today's society because people have become too lax and selfish and fail to set solid boundaries to protect their marriages). I can't get him to actually HEAR and AGREE to the boundaries I'm trying to set. We just end up having the same fight we've been having for years.
Making things worse, I tried to bring up boundary setting in a prior therapy session. The therapist asked what "boundaries" meant to me. I pulled out print-outs of the list, saying that they precisely defined what I needed. Then, instead of asking what the lists said, she turned that into a discussion about how my confronting DH with things like lists, article, books, facts, statistics, etc. was making DH feel controlled and talked down to, and actually pushes him away and makes him feel like he isn't an equal participant or something because I'm setting the terms on my own. (This happened in our second to last session, and thus was the last we had before she had the deeper parent/child dynamic discussion with us).
So I don't know how else to approach the discussion with him. Particularly in a way that gets him on board and engaged. I feel like the only way to get him truly on board and engaged is to make him feel like he has actual input on the boundaries -- like we're discussing and deciding on them together. But when his ideas of appropriate boundaries are clearly screwed up (or else he wouldn't have cheated), I don't feel good about letting him think this is a negotiation. And if I just tell him "these are non-negotiable" then he seems unable to truly accept them.
Plus... our conversation with the therapist last night has me thinking that I'm REALLY SICK of having to act like a parent to him (especially when the therapist said that given the way things currently are, and the way DH currently is, I have been "forced" into the parent role, and there's no other role I can be in). I want him to grow up already and start pulling his weight. I'm getting tired of always being the one to carry our relationship.
Me: 29 Him: 30 Married: 2 years Together: 13 years No kids Bomb: 6/4/10 Started MC: 7/16/10
I can't explain it, but New Beginnings is VERY different from most marriage weekend deals. It forces EACH spouse to participate and it forces each to take personal responsibility. I'm pretty familiar with programs and nothing I've ever seen is like this. Your H would HAVE to participate, like it or not. Doesn't mean you'll walk away totally "cured" but believe me - I know my H was changed by it, even though I was hurt at the end of the weekend that he wasn't just 100% turned around. We've made progress that I know without that weekend, we would not have. Ask Allen! lol
Just to add, my H went along kicking and screaming - tried to cancel several times - and was too prideful to admit he was glad we went but did say, "I don't regret going at all," which was his way of saying it was productive. He's even told the kids he was glad of the lessons learned there.
You get a lot of tools, but you find out a lot about yourself (and your spouse) that sticks with you even if the lessons fade. Even if my M doesn't survive, I will still be glad we went! I know we have a much better chance due to that weekend, however.
The night I caught DH chatting with his OEA partner, he also confessed that he had been having a "non-serious" flirtation (via text message or web chatting) with this other girl. It's such a mind-boggling thing for me because this girl is ugly and crawling with STDs. He also says she's very mentally unstable and immature. Yet he's been texting and chatting with her for 15+ years (before we met), and at some point it began turning flirtatious. DH claims he would "never" act upon it because he's disgusted by her, but that he previously justified it as "harmless" because it was "just text messages, and he'd never follow through". He confessed that some of it was sexual (i.e. this girl sleeps around a lot, and has done some things with guys I won't do with DH... at one point she began talking about one of those acts and DH became somewhat intrigued by the discussion. She told him "if you ever want to try it, you can try it with me". DH claims he has no interest in actually doing it -- especially with her -- but that it was more like a "fantasy world" to him [same thing he said about his relationship with the OEA OW]). DH clearly has issues with living in a fantasy world with other women...
Anyway, DH told me that he's been trying to cut this girl off for years by ignoring her. But then she keeps trying to reach out to him and eventually he responds. I told him on D-day that he needed to cut her off for good. He said he would. But then he did what he always does, which is to try to avoid her (or whatever problem he has) and hope it just "goes away" (he learned that trick from how his parents handle conflict). Unfortunately, she did what has always worked for her and started commenting on his Facebook posts a lot and trying to "connect" with him. DH kept trying to ignore her and would delete her posts. But he kept resisting on deleting her off Facebook entirely (even though I asked him to more than once) because he was afraid of what she was going to do (she has a history of doing some extreme things when someone disses her).
So, last night as I was coming home I saw he posted a status update on Facebook, and 3 minutes later she had replied (very common for her to reply minutes after his posts). I got pissed and the following text convo with DH went down:
M: JFC. Will you delete K already! I'm sick of seeing her comment on your posts like she's stalking you. H: I know. She's pissing me off royally M: You really should have deleted her two months ago. The fact you didn't is hurting me. Every time I see her comments it makes me hurt. H: I know. I'm sorry. I'm deleting her right now. M: ...like you can't even give HER up H: I can. I'm sorry. M: I should never have had to ask more than once. But thank you for taking care of it H: Well I still need to let her know she's cut off. Just not entirely sure how to handle it. She's a very unstable person. But I know it needs to happen. M: With the truth. And then you block her and do NOT respond if she harasses you. You threaten her with a restraining order if she won't stop. She probably needs a No Contact letter. H: I blocked her. God she is annoying. M: I know you think it's uncomfortable and sucky... but what it is doing to me and us is way worse. H: I agree. I've stopped talking to her before but she worms her way around. A no contact letter will not go over well but it's necessary.
The text convo ended after that, because I came home. But we talked about it some more and I told him that we could never repair our marriage if he was still hanging on to people like this -- regardless of the reason. I told it was completely his choice on whether he chose the discomfort of cutting her off or the repercussions of me cutting him off, because there is NEVER room for more than two people in a marriage. He has also deleted her contact info, and we're looking into whether we can block her phone number. I already have access to his text logs and stuff, so I'll know if he's continuing that with her anyway.
I also told him my fear is that his tendency to try to just avoid dealing with the OW and hoping they just magically "go away" is flawed, dangerous and further destroying our marriage. Plus, if he can't cut off someone who he claims annoys and disgusts him and that he says has never been all that important or close to him, then how can I trust that he'll protect our marriage in the future from other threats -- particularly from female friends he is closer to and would be tougher to cut off (like coworkers)? He kept telling me he agreed, and knew I was right and apologizing. This morning he came to me crying, thanking me for "pushing him" to do the right thing, saying I didn't deserve any of this and how much he wants to change and do right by me and fix our marriage. I didn't really say anything other than "I hope we can".
Anyway... mostly venting. But if I didn't handle this right, I'm open to advice on what I should do differently going forward.
Me: 29 Him: 30 Married: 2 years Together: 13 years No kids Bomb: 6/4/10 Started MC: 7/16/10
He may just be playing you off against these women to stroke his own ego...
Is he showing sincere remorse here or do you think he's chuckling about it after you leave the room?
He seems to think the boundaries are open for discussion... But the point is, he has so little education on this subject he's just going to be wasting your time and talking in circles...
This "harmless" comment he made is a perfect example...
You have TOLD him you are HURT by his communications and he claims its harm-LESS... It's a logical contradiction but he's standing there maintaining its harmless just to spite you. You tell him you ARE hurt and he just contradicts you and tells you its harmless...
Three possibilities here : 1. He is INDIFFERENT to your feelings... 2. He is passive aggressive and is TRYING to upset you on purpose 3. He sympathizes but lacks the emotional intelligence to understand this is causing you harm
Have you researched passive aggression?
As long as he's being passive aggressive you negotiating is a waste of time... He has to be grown up enough to own his role in the marriage or be honest enough to walk away from it
Passive–aggressive behavior, a personality trait, is passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations. It is a personality trait marked by a pervasive pattern of negative attitudes and passive, usually disavowed resistance in interpersonal or occupational situations.
It can manifest itself as learned helplessness, procrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible.[1]
The book Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man lists 11 responses that may help identify passive-aggressive behavior:[1]
Ambiguity or speaking cryptically: a means of engendering a feeling of insecurity in others Chronically being late and forgetting things: another way to exert control or to punish. Fear of competition Fear of dependency Fear of intimacy as a means to act out anger: The passive aggressive often cannot trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone. Making chaotic situations Making excuses for non-performance in work teams Obstructionism Procrastination Sulking Victimization response: instead of recognizing one's own weaknesses, tendency to blame others for own failures. A passive-aggressive person may not have all of these behaviors, and may have other[clarification needed] non-passive-aggressive traits.
Husband : I do... I think... Maybe, I will let you know.. Let me check my facebook account first... Hold it, incoming call... one second... Ya, I can go with that, but I don't know about this 'do' business.. what is it you need me to do again?
You have to decide how long you want to chase a rabbit around the yard on this one...
Is he showing sincere remorse here or do you think he's chuckling about it after you leave the room?
I genuinely believe he is showing true remorse. I just think he has no solid role models, and no clue about what to do. His friends are either morons when it comes to this stuff (his best friend keeps telling him "I really like Peachy a lot. She's really cool and smart and funny and blah blah blah. But don't you want to explore the world some more? Don't you want to experience some other relationships? Maybe your marriage should end." And he also recently told DH that he and his girlfriend decided to never marry because of what's gone down in our marriage!)
Whenever I push and guide him enough, he eventually seems to take my lead and does what's needed. He has made some changes in himself that he used to stubbornly fight me on (and which I had been asking for for years). He also keeps saying he really wants to fix this and make it right. He keeps saying he "really wants to be the man I deserve". He keeps telling me that I am an "amazing wife and person" and that he's "incredibly lucky to have me" and that he "knows he has taken me for granted over the years", and that he's "very sorry" for that.
I feel like he just needs someone, outside of me, to guide him well and he'll follow. I can't do it alone though because it triggers the rebellious teenager vs. "Peachy the Parent" inside of him.
Quote:
He seems to think the boundaries are open for discussion... But the point is, he has so little education on this subject he's just going to be wasting your time and talking in circles...
This "harmless" comment he made is a perfect example...
You have TOLD him you are HURT by his communications and he claims its harm-LESS... It's a logical contradiction but he's standing there maintaining its harmless just to spite you. You tell him you ARE hurt and he just contradicts you and tells you its harmless...
To be fair, he said he justified it while it was happening by believing it was "harmless". He wasn't saying he still thinks it was harmless. He said last night that he does in fact know now that it IS and WAS harmful. And he kept saying "it was so stupid and pointless" and "I can't really understand why I did it because it wasn't real, it wasn't anything I actually wanted, and it wasn't ever worth what it's done to you/us."
Quote:
Three possibilities here : 1. He is INDIFFERENT to your feelings... 2. He is passive aggressive and is TRYING to upset you on purpose 3. He sympathizes but lacks the emotional intelligence to understand this is causing you harm
Have you researched passive aggression?
As long as he's being passive aggressive you negotiating is a waste of time... He has to be grown up enough to own his role in the marriage or be honest enough to walk away from it
I don't think it's passive aggressiveness. Although, his parents are experts at being passive aggressive, so maybe I should read up on it more to be sure.
I think it's a combo of 1 and 3. The indifference comes from his flawed/childish thinking that he needs to look out for his happiness first. He has an extremely hard time grasping the concept of putting your marriage first, and doing what's right for your marriage even if it's not what you want. This has been lightly touched on in FT. Although I'm not sure DH picked up on that yet, because our MC talks in a way that DH has a hard time understanding (he and I just talked about this on Tuesday after our session, and DH confessed he keeps hoping that I'll pipe up in session and translate for him -- but instead of asking the MC what she means, he tries to pretend like he gets it, and the MC isn't good about bringing him back on point).
On the other hand, I do believe he sympathizes with me on some levels, but is very emotionally stunted and doesn't know how to handle it. I've always been very emotionally expressive and insightful, and he has distanced himself from his emotions. With an emotional basket case of a mother, and a father who is either emotionally cold or aggressive, he doesn't have a clue how to manage feelings, so he reverts back to his childish methods of dealing with them. (As an example, he's been known in the past to start making faces, noises, childish jokes, etc. when I'm trying to talk to him about something serious/emotional that is bothering me -- he doesn't know how to deal with it like an adult, so he tries to "act cute" to distract me and make me giggle. I wonder if that's what he did with his parents as an actual child... Although, to his credit, he has NOT done that to me since I discovered the affair, so maybe it's a small sign of growth?)
Me: 29 Him: 30 Married: 2 years Together: 13 years No kids Bomb: 6/4/10 Started MC: 7/16/10
Husband : I do... I think... Maybe, I will let you know.. Let me check my facebook account first... Hold it, incoming call... one second... Ya, I can go with that, but I don't know about this 'do' business.. what is it you need me to do again?
You have to decide how long you want to chase a rabbit around the yard on this one...
He said in FT the other day he "felt pressured" to get married. Not directly by me. But because he knew it's what I wanted, and basically that if he didn't do it he was risking losing me.
The stupid thing is that HE sort of forced the situation that caused us to get engaged. We had been together 9 years. My lease on my condo was expiring (I lived alone). I was preparing to renew it for another year. DH was living with his parents. He wanted to move out, and wanted to do it with me. I told him to get his own place for a while, and live on his own. He said "No. I'd have to live in an apartment then. I don't want to live in an apartment, I want to live in a single-family house. But I can't really do that on my own." I told him to rent a house with a friend. He said he didn't have any friends he could do that with, and that he really wanted to live with me. (I see now that I probably should have said "too effin bad, you NEED to be on your own for a little while, for your own good"). I refused to move in with him unless we were engaged (not as a manipulation tactic at all, but because that is a strong value of mine -- I feel like co-habitation without commitment is foolish, because if it falls apart, you have all the headaches of splitting a household and finances with none of the legal protections). He begged me not to renew my lease, saying he would propose. We found a place, and the day after we signed the lease, he proposed. 16 months later we were married. He even wrote his own vows to me, in which he promised to "always be faithful"...
Ugh... that all sounds so unromantic when told like that...
Me: 29 Him: 30 Married: 2 years Together: 13 years No kids Bomb: 6/4/10 Started MC: 7/16/10
