Allen: I don't know how to quote appropriately on here so I'll just try to address some of the things you've said. First of all, I'm extremely surprised because I haven't seen any posts that berate someone the way I have been here. I'm not at all proud of how we met. He was in the midst of a divorce, my ex H and I were not sleeping in the same bedroom. Do I wish we would have met after our D's were final? Absolutely, but the truth is we would have both ended up in the same place. That's not an excuse that's a fact. Do you remember reading that we took it slow and dated for a very long time before I even met his kids. Did you see that I said I have a great relationship with the ex? We actually do social events together. She has told me before she couldn't have handpicked a better step mom for her kids. She watched our 4 year old the other day because I had an unexpected event. We've been to family therapy, the 3 of us, over issues their 12 year old was having. People tell us over and over that they think it's strange that we get along. It works for us. I don't think she would be my friend if I didn't have this connection with her of the children...she's just not typical of the people I usually hang out with....but I respect her and it has been that way from day one. I repeat, I was not the cause of this divorce....she wanted out as bad if not worse than he did. She is happily dating someone that she's been with for a few years.
As far as therapy, we are in therapy together. I answered the question that someone else asked if we were individual therapy. I completely understand the pattern we are recreating. My intent is to stop it. I'm just shocked that I would come to a site looking for support to save my marriage and you post several times, essentially, that it's doomed. I disagree.
I haven't read back through your other posts, I will, but my guess is, I've struck a chord. My hope is, I will have others that are supportive. I understand and own our history - that is why I posted it. I could have easily left it out but it's part of our past (good bad or indifferent) and relevant to the situation.
Thanks for taking such a great deal of time to respond to my post.
Does anyone have positive advice for me or is this what I can expect on here due to our begining TWELVE years ago?
Me:38 H: 45 OW:34 S:4 Bonus S: 12 and 16 2nd M for both Together 12 yrs M: 6 EA suspected: 5/10 confirmed: 7/2/10 Separated: 8/12/10
I am not telling you that you are doomed. I am warning you that your H needs education.
My conscince is clear if his wife signs off on your marriage... I will not help an affair couple try to save thier marriage if there is a LBS waiting for it to fall apart to that the LBS has a chance of rebuilding their family whole again...
This is not the case here... So I personally don't have issues with it...
Allen: There is only so much one can include in these posts and I tried to hit on everything that I thought mattered.
I'm fully aware that my H needs education. This cycle is identical to what happened before. It's been brought to his attention in our counseling sessions and he sees it. He's just not in a place to do much about it yet. I'm not so sure he's not going through a MLC.
My ultimate goal is to break this cycle and show our boys that marriage is sacred. That when you take vows it's forever. That when you have problems, you stay and work them out. You don't run away when it gets hard. All 3 boys! I can't not have those boys in my life. I love them and they love me.
It is my hope that we can come out of this stronger and more self aware than ever. I'm well on my way there....he has a long way to go, but I'm willing to hang in there while he works through this horrible time and discovers who he really is...because I know when it's all said and done, he's an amazing man. I feel like he's lost right now.
Me:38 H: 45 OW:34 S:4 Bonus S: 12 and 16 2nd M for both Together 12 yrs M: 6 EA suspected: 5/10 confirmed: 7/2/10 Separated: 8/12/10
Yes - still in contact. He works with her, she's in the office next to him - same department. He's coming back tomorrow night from an overseas trip. I asked him today if he's talked to her. After dancing around it, I asked for him to put all his cards on the table, he said "a few times." I said "so you aren't trying to end it with her" he said "I'm not trying to do anything" I said "you are trying to keep it going with her" He's a gift giver - he's always buying little trinkets and gadgets and usually brings back all sorts of little things from this trip. I asked if he bought her anything. Again, he danced around it then finally said "I have not gotten her anything...goof" I can quote this because it's actually on IM on our Skype account. I will say that he's made every effort to stay in contact with me morning and night while he's been over there. I just can't figure out these signs. I've actually given him a couple of opportunities to just go and he always says "stop it" but why won't he stop it with her? Why does he keep trying to convince me nothing is going on but talk to her? Why is he in such close communication with me? If he really wants to go, why isn't he telling me "I love her and I want to leave?" But he's so shut down with me. Won't tell me he loves me anymore and even began to push me away when I've initiated sex. I just have so many mixed messages from him. I have a few friends (one in the psych field and knew him when he shut down in his first marriage) who just can't figure it out.
I have said on several occasions that we can't make it work with her in the picture. I even asked her to step away while we try to figure this out. This was in the beginning and all she said was "I don't know what to say" She has a 2 year old son and just finalized a divorce.
BTW, for what it's worth, I posted wedding pics on my FB page and she unfriended me the next day - that was over a month after I found out about the EA. She'd been a "friend" on FB for a couple of years. (it sounds very high school but seems relevant)
I really appreciate your help and questions!
Me:38 H: 45 OW:34 S:4 Bonus S: 12 and 16 2nd M for both Together 12 yrs M: 6 EA suspected: 5/10 confirmed: 7/2/10 Separated: 8/12/10
1. Infidelity isn't something he can just stop doing, its an addiction. 2. He isn't going to be honest with you 3. He isn't gonig to be forthright with you 4. He isn't going to be intimate with you (he might, but I doubt it) 5. He isn't giong to cooperate with you 6. He is hooked on an excitement right now - a romantic/sexual fantasy and his one and only motivation right now is to pursue that further
1. Reasoning with him won't help 2. Arguing with him won't help 3. Telling him to go won't help 4. Pleading with him to stay won't help 5. Asking him to stay won' help
What does work?
a. Firmness rather than enablement b. Simple concise points of fact thrown at him and then exit c. Friends and family all pressuring him to the same end - end the affair d. Isolation from everyone and everything else
The problem is HK when someone starts an affair there are three roads they can take :
A. Pursue both the affair and maintain the marriage at subsistence level B. End the marriage and pursue the affair 100% C. End the affair and pursue the marriage 100%
Option B and C are painful... in both cases they have to give up something and make a commitment to something fully
Option A allows them to hold onto both relationsihps. Option A is the least painful, the most hurtful, the most destructive, and unfortunately the most desirable
Why would any addict want to give up anything when they can juggle both?
In most cases they don't want to and wont. They may show anger, they may move out, but they will continue to send text messages, call, or show up to "get some things I left behind" ... It's all a ruse to maintain a subsistence marriage and "check in" to keep the marriage barely breathing...
Right now he's choosing A because to an addict it makes sense...
If you sit with an alcoholic and offer them
A. Purusue drinking each night, and keep your family support B. Break with your friends and family and pursue alchohol 100% C. Break alcohol use and enjoy your supporting family 100%
Why would any alcohoic in their right mind choose anything other than A?
They won't.
They will chose the path of least resistance each time.. and the path of least resistance to them is the one that causes them the least amount of stress - having to make a choice for one and end the other is stressful... very stressful
So they maintain both... THey will mantain the marriage and try to keep up contact with the affair partner at a subsistence level, or they will move in iwth the affair partner and keep sending the odd text message to the LBS to maintain the marriage, etc. They don't want to make a choice.. choices are undesirable compared to juggling both options... Having to make a commitment to B or C only is too final, too painful, too grown up.
The advice I usually reccomend on this forum is to FORCE the addict to choose B or C by taking yourself OUT of the affair. You confront him one time and set clear boundaries :
a. End all contact b. Full transparency of cell phone use and PC use c. Transfer somewhere else or change jobs if OP is in workplace d. Family therapy for both of you at least once a week e. Do all necessary readings on building and repairing marriages f. A no contact letter written and signed by both of you and sent to OW etc
You may add to it, but you hit him with those terms and he has FIVE MINUTES to decide.
If he wont' you choose for him by packing his things and showing him the door.
Once he's out the door
a. You don't call him b. You don't text him c. You don't email him d. You dont' visit him e. You don't write him a letter f. You don't leave notes on his car g. You don't post anythign on your facebook about him
You force him to choose B or C by taking A away as an option.
YOu can't force him to choose C my dear, but you CAN force make A not an option anymore by exiting yourself from his lifestyle until he chooses a healthier one for the two of you
That in a nutshell is my advice.
I DO reccomend you tell friends and family your position and ask them to press himt o return home and agree to return to FT, etc... But I strongly reccomend that you exit yourself from his life if he refuses the confrontation.. You don't give him a week to choose, you give him five minutes and you watch him the whole time.. he does NOT call her to chat or make up his mind.. he sits there and chooses no calls no talking to OW
It's a confrontation NOT a negotiation... You give him one choice, and he either takes it or he leaves
If he refuses to choose you tell him his choice is leaving... And you start packing his things FOR HIM
Don't ask him to do it and walk away.... YOU do it so he KNOWS you mean business ...
THe HARDER and FIRMER you ARE on this the more SERIOUS he will take you..
If you waffle and cry and backpeddal even an INCH he will exploit that a mile...
You hit him hard and firm and fast and send him to teh door if he won't commit there and then
Ahhh this is what I was hoping for. Thank you! I feel a little naive but I need clarification on these:
a). Firmness rather than enablement: Are you suggesting I lay down the law and say "no more" I was under the impression that that's a bad approach. By enabling, do you mean allowing him time alone to be with her?
b). Simple concise points of fact thrown at him then exit: I'm trying to figure out a scenario for this. ie: Fact: what he is doing is wrong. Fact: This is hurting me and will devastate our sons. Things like that?
c). Friends and family all pressuring him to the same end - end the affair: This seems to go against what I've read as well but it goes along with my gut. His sister now knows and is appalled at his behavior but probably won't say anything. She's been very supportive of me. I've confided in two of his friends, but neither of them have made any attempt to talk to him. Nor have I asked them to at this point (but I've thought about it) I was just thinking today of calling another coworker (with whom I have a casual but good relationship with) to let her know what's going on (she's in the office across from them) and ask for her help.
d). Isolation from everyone and everything else: He's isolated himself. I don't believe any of his friends know this is going on. I'm not sure how to do this, or how it helps.
I was doing REALLY well a few weeks ago. Really focused on the GAL and felt 10 feet tall with confidence and that I was doing the right thing. Re-entered school, made a lot of girlfriend really fun dates, became super mom and step mom again. I'm starting to regress, it feels. Grasping at straws, trying to make him jealous over comments and compliments I've gotten. I'm a VERY strong and controlled individual but lately I feel like I'm spinning again. The first week after the bomb I lost 10lbs and barely slept. In doing this 180, though, I truly feel like I'm in a better place. If it all works out, I'm in a much better place. If it doesn't, I'm in a much better place. Extremely self aware and strong. So many friends and family members have said "I don't know how your doing this" "you are a class act" "you're so patient, strong, ect...
Again, thank you!
Me:38 H: 45 OW:34 S:4 Bonus S: 12 and 16 2nd M for both Together 12 yrs M: 6 EA suspected: 5/10 confirmed: 7/2/10 Separated: 8/12/10
Say "yes I will stop violating your marriage and famly and back off..."
Say "I'm not a homewrecking bitch I will step aside..."
Say "Yes, you are my friend and I don't want things to go where they are headed... my self respect is more important than lies and escapism"
Say "Yes I will... Right this very minute... No more contact with your Husband at all... You have my solemn word"
YOU put the words IN her mouth FOR her then... she says she doens't know what to say and what did you tell her?
Anything like teh above?
You teach people how to treat you my dear... if she walks all over you its because you to some degree allow it in what you say or do, or what you don't say or don't do you invite her to continue... Until you stop inviting her to continue
If she gives you a half assed answer like that you give her a REAL one and you press her to accept it or you bring consequences right to her door.
This all makes sense. I've thought of this scenario and it scares the sh!t out of me. He told me early on after the bomb that if I was to force him to make a decision right then and there, he would leave. I'm not sure he feels the same now but I'm a little scared to find out. I believe I could do this...even thought of it after this week and a half of finding I'm very capable of being a single mom. When he comes in the door saying, "decide or get out"
I have to say, though, I feel like this contradicts what I've been reading about staying and being a friend. No R talk, to OW talk, show a pleasant side at all times even if that's not what you are feeling. I thought that's what DB was based on.
Me:38 H: 45 OW:34 S:4 Bonus S: 12 and 16 2nd M for both Together 12 yrs M: 6 EA suspected: 5/10 confirmed: 7/2/10 Separated: 8/12/10
