Not sure where to start, or end. WAW?

[TimeHeals]

pussy foot around the issue

I'm not, Steve. I agree that they are not communicating in a healthy way. She invalidates him, he invalidates her, she is highly structured and so the battles happen when he strayes into any territory where she has to have control.

It's the communication that is the elephant. I agree with that much.

[john28]

Back in Feb/March of this year, I heard her say the words, "This is the best our M has ever been!" We were the strongest we'd been in years.

As far as you know, the current EA started about a month later, right around your April blowup. What changed in your M between March and April for your W to open up to someone else, or did the EA start before this, and your W said this to try to convince herself? She did start taking classes with OM in January...

You can't play golf in Dec/Jan/Feb/March. I was spending alot of time at home.

She bought me a golf membership in late March. I started to abuse that by spending 3+ days a week on the golf course. I would take my S4 a 1/3rd of the time. I wasn't home at least one full day a weekend. April/May is a HUGE golf tournament season. I played 8 tournaments in 5 weeks or so. I wasn't home or even around very much. I had to travel for business too, which took me away several weekends. My priorities were screwed up.

Most LBS's, including myself, thought things were pretty good pre-bomb. I see how you look at your W; how does she look at you?

Right now? I think that's pretty self explanatory, otherwise I wouldn't be here. She says she doesn't want to be with me. Isn't attracted to me. That I was NEVER around to help. Re-writing M history, but not entirely. For a good 2 1/2 months I wasn't around because of my outside hobby and work. Although that doesn't justify the EA, it is what it is.

But, she respects and loves me and wants to try for this M. Or, at least that is what she says.

[john28]

pussy foot around the issue

I'm not, Steve. I agree that they are not communicating in a healty way. She invalidates him, he invalidates her, she is highly structured and so the battles happen when he strayes into any territory where she has to have control.

It's the communication that is the elephant. I agree with that much.

I'll agree. I went home for lunch today and I told her I had a great story to tell her. I told her the '65 Mustang story that Coach said, putting me in as the owner of the car, and her "doing something nice" for me by washing it. At the end when I finished, she said:

W: You'd be really mad at me if I did that to a car like that! (laughing)
M: And that is what happened last night with the pot and spoon.
W: I completely forgot about that last night, didn't even think anything of it.
M: I see. Well, I didn't because it upset me and I thought about it alot today. But I know now how you felt last night, and I didn't understand it then. Now, I see that we were both right. I wasn't just right, but you were too.
W: Yeah, I'll try to be more considerate next time.
M: And I'll not get angry when you're just trying to do it correctly.

End of discussion. Now that is good communication.

[PMA_Baby!]

Yeah. You guys sound like an episode of "Will and Grace".

Nice job. Although, I wouldn't have brought it up again just let your ACTIONS speak for themselves next time. Remember your supposed to be "Maning Up"!!

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I'll agree. I went home for lunch today and I told her I had a great story to tell her. I told her the '65 Mustang story that Coach said, putting me in as the owner of the car, and her "doing something nice" for me by washing it. At the end when I finished, she said:

W: You'd be really mad at me if I did that to a car like that! (laughing)
M: And that is what happened last night with the pot and spoon.
W: I completely forgot about that last night, didn't even think anything of it.
M: I see. Well, I didn't because it upset me and I thought about it alot today. But I know now how you felt last night, and I didn't understand it then. Now, I see that we were both right. I wasn't just right, but you were too.
W: Yeah, I'll try to be more considerate next time.
M: And I'll not get angry when you're just trying to do it correctly.

End of discussion. Now that is good communication.

Blccccchh.


Puppy

[Steve McQueen]

you guys crack me up. no wonder you are so sexually frustrated. fight with your wife over cookware then demand respect and validation over it? jeez louise. if you really need respect and validation in the kitchen something is wrong here. go eat at the club.

nice job john, this episode now will fade into oblivion and you can later address more founded issues in your relationship. around page 150 in DB, MWD writes learning how to avoid these petty arguments. I think a lot of people skip over that section.

[john28]

Well, new MC session today with a new person.

She's pro-marriage. W felt a better connnection to her. Ultimately, she ended up saying that my W had to commit that she "wants to want to try to be in this marriage." If she says yes, we'll begin working on what she described as a long rebuilding process that will be very painful and hard. She wasn't sugar coating anything. But she did say that this would be a new M we'd be working on, and that the old one is gone regardless of what we end up doing. W didn't give an answer today because the T didn't ask for one - she told her whenever she was ready she could answer it.

So, I'm just going to lay low and not initiate any R talk, give her space, and try to 180. The thing is, my wife has specifically said in the past that she "wants to want to try". We'll see if she gives the same answer. I think that if we can get into MC with this new T we have a decent shot and making this work.

[sandi2]

So, you didn't do as Puppy suggested and bring up the subject of your W's passwords?

I understand completely what your W is saying about "wanting to want you", but her problem will not get fixed as long as she's flirting with other men. She won't feel in love with you and she sure won't have any desire for sex or to work on the M. Everything about the M goes dead for her when she's in an A.

I also understood completely what you were saying about the ordeal in the kitchen. Won't to know to what eats away at a MR? Sarcasam, put-downs, making the S the butt of your jokes, laughing at the S's embarrassment, etc. I could go on with more, but these things are acts of disrespect and it is as deadly as poison. It kills sexual desire. It kills admiration. It kills intimacy. It kills self-esteem. It kills respect. Get the picture?

It's not always what's said but the tone of voice that is used. Not knowing the two personalities, it's hard to get the true picture. But the point is that it made you feel disrespected. Next day...she'd forgotten it but you hadn't, so I think she's talked like this all throughout the M. Now, how do you put a stop to it? You must approach her in a manly way and as somebody has already mentioned, don't tell her how bad she makes you feel, just tell her that you will not be talked to in that manner.

It is the small stuff that counts, just as much as the bigger issues. Somebody may think one little nibble from a duck isn't too bad--but if you were nibbled every day, I'd bet it would get to be a rather "sore" spot!

I asked you if you had thought what your boundaries would be. I am going to give you the link to Coach's thread on boundaries. I think if you read it then you'll get a better idea of what we are talking about. It isn't like a list of house rules, but it is about the respect you need to have to stay in this M. You need to know what your deal breakers are. What would the consequenses be if your W spoke in a disrespectful way in front of your little boy? What would it be if she treated you rudly or laughed at something curel that happened to you? What would it be if she talked to OM on the phone while you were in the house?

So, there should be different consquenses for different actions. You wouldn't say that you were getting a D for all of the above, but neither would you want to let it ride.

Here's the link:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1859179#Post1859179

[john28]

Sandi - sorry I didn't address the passwords thing, but it did come up in MC.

Actually, the MC brought it up, not me. Her exact words were, "in a case like this where there has been an A, the only way to begin the recovery process is complete transpareny."

I almost fell out of my chair, I said "That's what I've been saying all along!" My W just seemed stunned.

I think the first question that needs to be answered by her is the "want to want to try". That would get the ball moving on the rest of this.

At this time, even though I don't have transparency, I feel confident there is NC with OM. She hasn't done anything for a month as far as I can tell, when I had transparency. She actually has showed me in the past few days a txt msg from another guy that might have upset me, but it was nothing.

Tonight has been good. As soon as I put S4 to bed, I told her I was going to read in the room. She was watching a show as I left. Not 5 minutes goes by and she comes into the room and decides she is going to read too. I told her that I was in here reading to give both of us space, and that was my intention. She said she didn't need it.

After she finished reading she said she was going to nap. I told her it wasn't a good idea to nap at 8:30 at night, that she would be up late, and that was a bad choice for our child tomorrow. She whined and eventually laughed and then stayed in bed but awake. She asked if I wanted to play cards, and I said sure. She asked me to tell her when I was finished with my chapter.

Played cards, finished our game. Went inside. Looked at the DVR, nothing on it. I told her I was going to read, she looked up at me from the couch at me and I said, "What?" She pucked her lips up for a kiss. I gave her one. Maybe that was a mistake.

She's got a decision to make in the next few days. We'll see.

And I'm reading Hold on to Your N.U.T.S right now, it's good. More on that later.

[sandi2]

So is it fine with her if other women send you emails or TM?
Stop and think how A's begin.

She could be holding on to her "privacy" b/c you are too controlling and she is being stuborn about relenting her PW's. You've got to let up on preaching to her. If she hasn't more since than to take a nap at 8:30,then allow the natural consequences teach her that lesson. If you start on her,she'll resent it. She's an adult (even if she doesn't act like it).

Even after dropping an A, the feelings of the WAW doesn't return overnight. It takes time. Most LBH's that I've read about want to hear their WAW commit 100% to working on the M. She, on the otherhand, is trying her best (we hope)to work up to that line where she can feel that she's willing to be willing. Now I said all of that as if the W did end all A's and has stopped the flirting over Internet.

As long as she's flirting with "friends" then she's keeping a door open to a forbidden area that only her H should have.